So one of the things I have had a hard time with grasping so far in EE is how much things are worth- especially things which are easy to gather tons of in a short period of time, like essence. The thing is, we can't start paying coin for things (AH issues aside) without having a reasonable understanding of how much time is worth in the game. To get a very basic, one-dimencional hold on this I am going to do a little experiment.
In 15 minutes, I gathered the following in a monster escalation hex (lion hex):
66 ordered essence
42 tansy leaves (totally a coincidence, I swear!)
24 bloodstone
132 units in total
I chose the escalation hex due to the higher density of the nodes. It is also worth noting that this particular hex is easily navigable (some are literally mazes). I never died and only had a few run-ins with critters. My gather skills for all 3 nodes are at rank 5.
Next I am going to go kill some mobs for 15 minutes using Gale and his +2 longbow and medium armor. I'll do it in the same hex just because.
Gale picked up 97 copper, Footpad's Leather, Hide and Steel Banded, 3 torn peasant's clothes, Apprentice's Quickening Wand Recipe, Basic Strips +1 recipe, 4 Fragments of Battle, 2 Fragments of Learning, and 2 Fragments of Secrets.
Lets say for a moment that we ignore all the non-coin loot and just focus on the 97 copper. Lets also then make the rather large assumption that everything the gatherer got is equal in value. We have, roughly, that each unit gathered is worth about 0.75c.
Goblin Squad Member
|
sspitfire
I think I know which hex you gathered in. I'm aware of one that has exactly that distribution signature.
Here are my rough estimates:
I can gather on average around 300 raw materials in an hour if I gather everything in a hex that is decent to navigate. Your numbers are well above that - so it would be interesting to know if you timed it (I was doing this with a timer running) or if you estimated the 15 minutes.
Gathering needs to take into account travel time. You hex is not next to a settlement. One of the large disadvantages of Golgoths is that they can quickly come down the mountain but will have to track back up if they gather tansy leaves in the woods south of them. This can add a considerable time.
Gathering dedicated materials or heavy ones takes more time. I would say to gather all ingredients for a +2 pot steel plate (49 coal, 49 iron, 2 ordered essence) takes 1 1/2 hours if you are based in the Emerald Lodge. This time will be a lot shorter if you have better access to coal or iron and don't get it from midden heaps.
The number above includes travel time and is a best estimate.
Off course in the above example 1 1/2 hour will give you some extra resources as well that I 'discount' but that could be used for free in other items or traded for coal and iron.
So there is a reason that 1 copper coin Pot Steel Plates have disappeared from the AH. A +0 version would be only 22 coal and iron - but still would take a cosiderable time to gather.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think Sspitfire's calculation is pretty fair, even allowing for time travelled to the hex. That sets a base value of 0.75c for any resource, which, since the AH currently has the lowest possible price of 1c allows for a 33% mark up to retail.
The next thing to take into account is supply and demand, which varies by loaction. At the moment the demand for Tansy leaves is so high, and they are so scarce, you could probably charge 10c each. Useless resources like pelts, prey, iron and coal would probably remain at 1c each.
Whatever the value, it's not the 80c per unit that someone is putting resources on the Rathglen auction house.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think the assumptions of this is so way out that the conclusions actually do not say anything at all (sorry, but I do believe that).
I just wondering a bit about this fixation in determine the worth in copper of this and that, it will change over time and space, be affected by supply and demand.
Throw into this a mix personal irrational opinions, relations and random external occurrences (patches, IRL, etc) and the variance will be so high, and the mean so fluctuating any prediction will actually be worse than no prediction at all.
When we get Caravans, functional AHs and merchants with networks (and more content to dilute the market), then there will be a possibility for some kind of market prediction.
Right now everything is essentially a pre monetary market. The value of thing A is decided solely on who you can sell (barter) it at the moment you try to sell it. Neversleep sap sin valuable in Keepers Pass, but I guess it is weight in gold in Marchmont.
Tansy leaf is crap in some areas right now, but when we get a T2 alchemist with the right Reciep, the price will skyrocket...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Schedim,
I wouldn't be so quick to shoot/dismiss this type of discussion down so far. PFO is creating its own emergent market and economic system, and this kind of player created gameplay is worth watching and participating in, especially for all the merchants, traders, bandits, crafter, mercs and independents out there. Figuring out what things are worth is of a lot of interest to many people. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So one of the things I have had a hard time with grasping so far in EE is how much things are worth- especially things which are easy to gather tons of in a short period of time, like essence. The thing is, we can't start paying coin for things (AH issues aside) without having a reasonable understanding of how much time is worth in the game. To get a very basic, one-dimencional hold on this I am going to do a little experiment.
In 15 minutes, I gathered the following in a monster escalation hex (lion hex):
66 ordered essence
42 tansy leaves (totally a coincidence, I swear!)
24 bloodstone
132 units in totalI chose the escalation hex due to the higher density of the nodes. It is also worth noting that this particular hex is easily navigable (some are literally mazes). I never died and only had a few run-ins with critters. My gather skills for all 3 nodes are at rank 5.
Next I am going to go kill some mobs for 15 minutes using Gale and his +2 longbow and medium armor. I'll do it in the same hex just because.
Gale picked up 97 copper, Footpad's Leather, Hide and Steel Banded, 3 torn peasant's clothes, Apprentice's Quickening Wand Recipe, Basic Strips +1 recipe, 4 Fragments of Battle, 2 Fragments of Learning, and 2 Fragments of Secrets.
Lets say for a moment that we ignore all the non-coin loot and just focus on the 97 copper. Lets also then make the rather large assumption that everything the gatherer got is equal in value. We have, roughly, that each unit gathered is worth about 0.75c.
Hey, where is my props for triggering your thread? :)
Your OP at 2 hours 10 minutes ago, my post here Where I mention Jack Vances Standard Labor-value Unit that he uses in his books at 2 hours 17 minutes ago.
;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Schedim,
I wouldn't be so quick to shoot/dismiss this type of discussion down so far. PFO is creating its own emergent market and economic system, and this kind of player created gameplay is worth watching and participating in, especially for all the merchants, traders, bandits, crafter, mercs and independents out there. Figuring out what things are worth is of a lot of interest to many people. :)
yes, yes, sorry if it comes of like a shooting, having a bad day, it MONDAY for frakks sake :-)
Yeah, it is worth discussing, but in my opinion it is also worth to interject (mostly for those who reads and not comment) that the information density and fact validity is very, very low and mostly for exercise our brains.
And the chaotic nature always for me to snipe on people relying of rational, physical models applied on biological systems... call it a habit of work if it suits you :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Kradlum and Thod: I love yall :) I'll buy Tansy Leaves off yall for 2c apiece instead. Everyone else its just 1c, though. Price discrimination ain't illegal in this game :)
.....
@Travel Time: Its less important the lighter weight the goods. My gatherer can easily carry 1,000 Essence. That means, in theory, she could head out into the field and gather for 8 hours, then head home to Blackfeather Keep on the opposite side of the map, and not hardly notice the travel cost- nor have to account for it when posting her goods to the AH.
Moving pine down south, on the other hand, has major travel costs. I can only carry 100 units of that at a time. That means I have to make 10 round trips from BH or Phaeros, at around 1 1/2 per trip. So 1 hour in the field has an additional cost of 1 1/2 hours traveling. Thus we could reasonably expect the price of Pine Logs in Hammerfall or Keepers Pass to be 2.5x that of what it would sell for in Guardheim, which is surrounded by pine. Of course, local markets will influence that pricing, and that pricing for Hammerfall does NOT take into account the risk of loosing your harvest to bandits- or the cost of hiring an escort.
.....
There is another factor here. Say you want moonstone, but in order to get moonstone you have to harvest 40 iron (sorta like it is right now around Keeper's Pass). If folks chasing after moonstone around KP don't throw all their iron ore away, then the value of iron ore around KP will be squat. Conversely, the value of moonstone will be much higher due to how hard it is to harvest around there.
An interesting note, at this point, however, is that when I tried to trade TEO moonstone for Ordered Essence today yesterday, they wouldn't do the trade! They have no real demand for wizard goods but tremendous demand for ordered essence for their +2 and +3 crafting process. Yet about a week and a half earlier, they wouldn't trade or sell me moonstone because it was too scarce! Love it! (I mean, it was annoying as hell at the time; but in hindsight, its a beautiful thing.) Of course, I could head down to Hammerfall and trade Phaeros the moonstone since they need loads of it for their wizard gear; but I know Nihimon is out making sure they have enough already :)
.....
I am looking forward to seeing how this economy grinds into action. My biggest concern right now is that we won't have enough players willing to haul goods from one end of the map to another, or gatherers to gather it, because they won't know how to make money off it. That was the impetus for this thread. If we can figure how to value time in-game with in-game currency, I think it will go a long way towards making it easier to get players into the merchant business. Oh, that's also why I am buying and selling with coins a lot. Someone has to get yall doing it!
TL;DR: I am buying Tansy Leaves for 1c apiece.
EDIT: @Tynnacle, I saw that! But not until 2 hours after I started this thread :)
EDIT: @Thod, I did time it. 15 minutes exactly. No deaths and not too many run-ins with mobs combined with a really high, clean node incidence rate made for fast gathering. Plus the skillz.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
deleted my silly troll post.