That's 100-240k for a four year program not even counting other expenses, such as books, food, housing. A much greater proportion of that...Rutgersis still only 25K for on campus tuition. While 5-6K more than NY, after federal loans, it will still be in my estimate.Rutgers is a State School. It's full name is Rutgers SUNJ. The problem with states cutting so much funding to state colleges and universities, they've been making up the shortfalls in tuition hikes. Rutgers for example hikes it's tuition on an average 20 percent per year.10-20k? That won't even cover a year at Rutgers, these days. You can't found college on a paper route any more.Yeah. I would love to see the job you could work while in school that gives you 10-20K surplus to spend on the degree. Even after graduating, you wont find that in most fields.
On the other hand, I VEHEMENTLY HATE the idea that a college education, even a 2-year degree becomes just one more ENTITLEMENT program for a country that has WAY TOO MANY ENTITLEMENT programs already. I was raised on the foundation that nothing in life is free, nor is anyone (excluding anyone under the age of 18), anywhere, entitled to anything. I worked to put myself through school, held down two jobs while I did. So my perspective is skewed.
BTW, I don't know when you did this, but the world has changed. Costs for college are much higher, especially relative to low end wages. It's much harder than it used to be to work your way through school.
Well, I was thinking about state schools like SUNY, and you can get federal loans for some of that.
That being said, a year at my alma mater, WPI, is now over 60K.
I love how this all came out of me saying that finding a job that gave 10-20K extra a year after living expenses while going to school would be next to impossible.
School sucks.
Joe 6-pack lives better than any Roman Emperor (except for, maybe, access to sexual partners)
That's staggeringly, hilariously uninformed.
And even worse, unimaginative! ;)
Shit, the food alone...!
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Joe 6-pack lives better than any Roman Emperor (except for, maybe, access to sexual partners)That's staggeringly, hilariously uninformed.
And even worse, unimaginative! ;)
S$#$, the food alone...!
It's not uninformed, it's propaganda.
Joe 6-pack lives better than any Roman Emperor (except for, maybe, access to sexual partners)That's staggeringly, hilariously uninformed.
And even worse, unimaginative! ;)
S+!*, the food alone...!
interestingly enough, I disagree. There are more than a few places where the emperor comes out on top beyond sexual partners, but I do think we(lower middle to upper class people) have more in common with the emperor today than not with respect to access to luxuries. *Acquiring* them may still be beyond some, but access has improved thanks to higher technology levels.
As long as we recognize that the imperial life offered great luxury in a large number of other areas in addition to just sex, it's all cool. Every single one, sure, perhaps not.
Food, wine, art, housing, transportation, entertainment? Joe Sixpack typically enjoys less luxurious fare.
I mean, law and order episodes on demand or whatever is an entertainment advance, but call me when Joe Sixpack can have the writers write episodes to his taste starring his personal favorite actors in shows made just for him.
Or call me when he gets around the Mediterranean in an imperial pleasure barge instead of a thir class cabin on a cruise ship or a cramped airline seat.
Or when he lives in his choice of any of his thousand acre country villas and hundred-room palaces and doesn't have to do any of the upkeep and maintenance.
Now, we too have palatial hotels, and top of the line cruise cabins, and such, that offer luxury to mimic and indeed in most ways exceed that of past rulers - but Joe Sixpack can't afford to live out his life in the Raj Hotel at $40,000 a night.
As long as we recognize that the imperial life offered great luxury in a large number of other areas in addition to just sex, it's all cool. Every single one, sure, perhaps not.
Food, wine, art, housing, transportation, entertainment? Joe Sixpack typically enjoys less luxurious fare.
I mean, law and order episodes on demand or whatever is an entertainment advance, but call me when Joe Sixpack can have the writers write episodes to his taste starring his personal favorite actors in shows made just for him.
Or call me when he gets around the Mediterranean in an imperial pleasure barge instead of a thir class cabin on a cruise ship or a cramped airline seat.
Or when he lives in his choice of any of his thousand acre country villas and hundred-room palaces and doesn't have to do any of the upkeep and maintenance.
Now, we too have palatial hotels, and top of the line cruise cabins, and such, that offer luxury to mimic and indeed in most ways exceed that of past rulers - but Joe Sixpack can't afford to live out his life in the Raj Hotel at $40,000 a night.
I dunno. I greatly prefer the existence of many modern comforts to antiquated luxuries.
How do you know, when you've never tried the antiquated luxuries?
:p
In any case, modern and ancient luxuries often aren't all that different, but are alike in being restricted to the upper class. That Raj suite I mentioned? Comes with a personal kitchen staff and a personal team of butlers. Nero would have recognized it. Joe Sixpack, on the other hand - he doesn't have 'better' service than that.
Alternately, as a New Yorker, you could also let me know when the subway seats become a more pleasant and comfy way to get to work than being carried there in bed.
Oh, and by the way, leisure time being among the most important and consistent of all luxuries, I wish Joe Sixpack the best of luck in working a few hours a day for most of his career and then wrapping up with a(nother!) ten year on-the-job vacation to a Mediterranean island resort.
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As long as we recognize that the imperial life offered great luxury in a large number of other areas in addition to just sex, it's all cool. Every single one, sure, perhaps not.
Food, wine, art, housing, transportation, entertainment? Joe Sixpack typically enjoys less luxurious fare.
I mean, law and order episodes on demand or whatever is an entertainment advance, but call me when Joe Sixpack can have the writers write episodes to his taste starring his personal favorite actors in shows made just for him.
Or call me when he gets around the Mediterranean in an imperial pleasure barge instead of a thir class cabin on a cruise ship or a cramped airline seat.
Or when he lives in his choice of any of his thousand acre country villas and hundred-room palaces and doesn't have to do any of the upkeep and maintenance.
Now, we too have palatial hotels, and top of the line cruise cabins, and such, that offer luxury to mimic and indeed in most ways exceed that of past rulers - but Joe Sixpack can't afford to live out his life in the Raj Hotel at $40,000 a night.
Food > Joe Sixpack has access to a much much wider variety of food than the average Roman emperor. Also, he has much more reliable access to higher quality foods (both nutrition and "choice") as agricultural and ranching advances and GMO product are notable in the 21st century.
Wine > Hands down, Joe Sixpack has access to finer and higher quality spirits at the local package store than the emperor could have dreamed of. Distillation is awesome in the 21st century.
Art > While perhaps not as customizable, Joe Sixpack has access to variety of art exceeding the wildest dreams of any Roman emperor including media and formats that also exceeds those wild dreams.
Housing > Air Conditioning, electric lights, refrigeration, tempur-pedic mattress, Joe Sixpack has them.
Transportation > Modern Roads and modern vehicles of the 21st century. Access to air travel. Less opulence, higher quality.
Entertainment > blood sport / modern sports, I'll call that one a wash. Joe Sixpack certainly has greater access though.
Transportation > Modern Roads and modern vehicles of the 21st century. Access to air travel. Less opulence, higher quality.
So... what? You travel in less comfort to save more time. But you have less leisure time than an emperor anyway, so you end up worse off on both accounts.
Also, "quality" is what?
Entertainment > blood sport / modern sports, I'll call that one a wash. Joe Sixpack certainly has greater access though.
What do you mean by greater access? An emperor who wanted to could enjoy customized entertainment basically any time any day. Any time every day for some, like later Tiberius.
I mean, maybe your cable has a lot of channels, but if you're off working sixty hours while Tiberius is watching that personally customized show, I'd say your access is worse too.
Housing > Air Conditioning, electric lights, refrigeration, tempur-pedic mattress, Joe Sixpack has them
Not much here is unique to the modern era - only industrial scale access is.
Central heating/air conditioning, ample lighting, yes, the richest Romans had it. (pre-electric lighting was available, but expensive - the biggest change that electric lighting brought was affordability). Comfortable beds, seriously, are you imagining the emperors had to sleep on dirt floors or something? No doubt after they went to bed at sundown for lack of light, like a farmer?
Refrigeration, again, the main effect was bringing a version of a privilege to everyone that had previously only been available to the ultra-rich. An emperor wanted certain French trout, choice trout were brought to him live from France and served fresh right at the feast at great expense, instead of buying refrigerated fish at the supermarket for cheap.
I'm going to stop here because derail, but, similar objections to the rest of your post. Unfamiliarity with what extreme wealth and luxury actually involved in the past - how great the luxury could be, how little work the day might involve - is the only explanation for the ridiculous assertion that every aspect of the average joe's life but sex is better than any emperor's.
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Sorry man, but I still disagree.
Transportation-
Would take the bus over a stinking, cess filled wheelhouse any day of the week.
Also, I can fly. Motherf@**ing FLY. Through the air. From one point on thr map to another in a matter of HOURS. Let's see Tiberius pull that one off.
Entertainment-
The internet provides me with very similar entertainments. And I don't have to leave home for it. AND if I am forced to leave home, the internet fits IN MY POCKET.
Central heating that I can control at a whim? Comfortable RELIABLE bedding? And I get my trout whenever I want,not waiting for months while yonder peon gets it for me from France. I'm living a better life than Caesar ever did, with 100% less assassination attempts to boot.
stinking, cess filled wheelhouse
*shrugs*
It's becoming increasingly clear that there's some enormous misconceptions at work if this is really how you envision the height of imperial travel accommodations. But it's also becoming increasingly off topic, so it's probably time to let it rest.
Wait, no, I can't resist. Are you really implying that the ability to bring recorded entertainment with you on a two inch screen when you travel is actually better than the ability to bring entertainment with you in life size real people of your choice when you travel? Or that the ability to watch, say, the Philharmonic on your laptop screen at home right away is better than the ability to watch them in your amphitheatre at home tomorrow?
Well, thinking about it, given the aforementioned disparity in leisure time, I suppose it is only natural that a modern audience would put such a higher premium on instant access compared to quality of the venue or medium - such that watching an instant performance on a tiny screen is seen as better. Time is more valuable when you aren't on that ten year on-the-job Mediterranean vacation :p
I don't have a TV. Or a pocket Internet :)
And yeah, lower classes throughout history have almost always had some amount of demonstrably non-essential goods. Didn't mean that society was doing right by them, compared to what it might have been doing.
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Wait, no, I can't resist. Are you really implying that the ability to bring recorded entertainment with you on a two inch screen when you travel is actually better than the ability to bring entertainment with you in life size real people of your choice when you travel? Or that the ability to watch, say, the Philharmonic on your laptop screen at home right away is better than the ability to watch them in your amphitheatre at home tomorrow?
Actually,.... yes. Or if he isn't, I am, for the simple reason that both the quality and quantity available are vastly better.
On my magic box-of-music, I can have everything from the best guitar player of the past sixty years to a legendary stand-up comedian to a thousand-piece brass band.
Even the Emperor Tiberius couldn't resurrect the dead. If he wanted to hear Hendrix play, he was stuffed,.... and if he wanted to see ten thousand orcs in costume storm Minas Tirith, that was going to require set construction far beyond what was possible.
Transportation > Modern Roads and modern vehicles of the 21st century. Access to air travel. Less opulence, higher quality.
So... what? You travel in less comfort to save more time. But you have less leisure time than an emperor anyway, so you end up worse off on both accounts.
Also, "quality" is what?
Quality is not getting your back wrecked because modern vechicle suspension is 10,000x better than slaves carrying your ass, or riding a mount, or riding in a fixed-axle wheeled-vehicle on brick/dirt/gravel roads. Modern roads + modern suspension = quality. Also, flying is a thing Joe Sixpack can do.
Entertainment > blood sport / modern sports, I'll call that one a wash. Joe Sixpack certainly has greater access though.What do you mean by greater access? An emperor who wanted to could enjoy customized entertainment basically any time any day. Any time every day for some, like later Tiberius.
I mean, maybe your cable has a lot of channels, but if you're off working sixty hours while Tiberius is watching that personally customized show, I'd say your access is worse too.
Greater access means more options. At any given time Joe Sixpack could watch 50-100 different sporting events (live) at any hour of the day with 0 seconds of notice or preparation. Joe Sixpack can ALSO watch millions of sporting events of his choice, within seconds, with no preparation, that occurred yesterday or previously.
Don't discount the interwebs, cable is the past man.
Housing > Air Conditioning, electric lights, refrigeration, tempur-pedic mattress, Joe Sixpack has themNot much here is unique to the modern era - only industrial scale access is.
Central heating/air conditioning, ample lighting, yes, the richest Romans had it. (pre-electric lighting was available, but expensive - the biggest change that electric lighting brought was affordability). Comfortable beds, seriously, are you imagining the emperors had to sleep on dirt floors or something? No doubt after they went to bed at sundown for lack of light, like a farmer?
Refrigeration, again, the main effect was bringing a version of a privilege to everyone that had previously only been available to the ultra-rich. An emperor wanted certain French trout, choice trout were brought to him live from France and served fresh right at the feast at great expense, instead of buying refrigerated fish at the supermarket for cheap.
The use of evaporation to create actual cooling and then moving that cooling around in a area the size of a house is extremely modern. Sure, the emperor could have some cooling via slaves and fans, or even cold springs trenched into an area and air circulated. But that pales in comparison to modern air conditioning.
Also, nice feather beds are grand, but they have nothing on inner-spring mattresses to say nothing of memory foam or now memory gel. Or even spring/gel hybrids. Holy crap. We are living in the era of the mattress.
As for food/refrigeration > part of the benefit of refrigeration is to keep foods fresh, but part of it is to make food cold. Making food cold is something that is new to the last 200 years. Ice cream on a hot summer day is amazing and not something you could have enjoyed in a Mediterranean climate before the 1820's.
Quality is not getting your back wrecked because modern vechicle suspension is 10,000x better than slaves carrying your ass
Not having to work is a much bigger back saver than anything you've got. :p
As for food/refrigeration > part of the benefit of refrigeration is to keep foods fresh, but part of it is to make food cold. Making food cold is something that is new to the last 200 years. Ice cream on a hot summer day is amazing and not something you could have enjoyed in a Mediterranean climate before the 1820's.
*spends literally five seconds researching the history of chilled food and ice cream*
The Roman Emperor Nero (37–68 AD) had ice brought from the mountains and combined it with fruit toppings. These were some early chilled delicacies.[7]
Arabs used milk as a major ingredient in the production of ice cream[citation needed] and sweetened it with sugar rather than fruit juices. It was flavoured with rosewater, dried fruits and nuts.
Look whose name came up in the history of chilled foods much earlier than two hundred years ago!
It's completely hilarious that you chose that as your particular example - and goes to show what I've been saying about misconceptions as to the level of luxury that was available.
Quality is not getting your back wrecked because modern vechicle suspension is 10,000x better than slaves carrying your ass
Not having to work is a much bigger back saver than anything you've got. :p
As for food/refrigeration > part of the benefit of refrigeration is to keep foods fresh, but part of it is to make food cold. Making food cold is something that is new to the last 200 years. Ice cream on a hot summer day is amazing and not something you could have enjoyed in a Mediterranean climate before the 1820's.*spends literally five seconds researching the history of chilled food and ice cream*
The Roman Emperor Nero (37–68 AD) had ice brought from the mountains and combined it with fruit toppings. These were some early chilled delicacies.[7]
Arabs used milk as a major ingredient in the production of ice cream[citation needed] and sweetened it with sugar rather than fruit juices. It was flavoured with rosewater, dried fruits and nuts.Look whose name came up in the history of chilled foods much earlier than two hundred years ago!
It's completely hilarious that you chose that as your particular example.
Ice chilled fruit juice is NOT ice cream.
Yeah, let's look at what I responded to.
Making food cold is something that is new to the last 200 years.
*coughs at the major misconception about past luxury*
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Why are we having a pointless discussion comparing a Roman emperor to modern poor people?
Crud, I forget, it's an internet forum and we have to endlessly pick apart things with semantics. Carry on.
Heh, it's actually mostly my fault.
...I have no regrets.
and if he wanted to see ten thousand orcs in costume storm Minas Tirith, that was going to require set construction far beyond what was possible.
Large scale battles were often reenacted. Although on that scale, sure, if you're going to kill that many people, why not just start a real war and go watch the fireworks?* You have a three hundred thousand man army and a world full of hostile fortified cities.
*did happen. Spectating at real live battles was hardly unheard of in antiquity. Nor indeed has it been in modernity.
recordings are awesomer than anything, etc
I love watching hockey, but I don't go to games because, even beside the expense, I find the atmosphere around the rink really obnoxious and loud and unenjoyable. If I could bring the teams to my backyard, you'd better believe I'd like that better than even greatest moments reruns, though.
But sure, I'd grant there are some aspects of average modern entertainment that outstrip the best the ancients had, and recordings do offer some things that the ancients could never have had. That's obvious enough. I still doubt that this means an overall better life for a working stiff than Tiberius, insofar as entertainment goes, given the other factors we've discussed - not only greater leisure to enjoy it, not only the ability to arrange settings of choice, but those in particular.
Instant wide access isn't the only, or necessarily the chief, factor that makes entertainment actually pleasant.
Food > Joe Sixpack has access to a much much wider variety of food than the average Roman emperor.
Another emphasis on sheer quantity of potential choices over how pleasantly the guy actually dines. Sure, Average Joe can choose between a huge shelf of rices at the supermarket, but does he actually eat meals that match the emperor's feasts?
Having more types of beans on the shelf doesn't mean that Average Joe's lunch is better eating than an imperial dinner party.
In fact, I think we have a what's for lunch thread here at Paizo, you can go check it out for a sample. I'm sure Nero would prefer the average entry to one of his feasts...
Hmmm..
-Burger King
or...
-TV dinner
or...
-Ritz and cheese
or...
-veggies, hummus, yogurt, fruit
or...
-raw tomatos and noodles
or...
leftover maybe-spoiled egg salad sandwich
or...
Chicken and spaghetti
or...
Sliced bread and cheap meat paste.
Gonna stop here. And this is a thread that is probably biased towards reporting exciting lunches!
I'm sure Nero is looking up from his honey glazed baby French pheasant in pepper sauce (first course of a bazillion in a noon-to-midnight feast) with insane jealousy.
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Because the original topic is moot. The proposal was withdrawn because it would take away a tax break for the wealthy and income for fund managers.Why are we having a pointless discussion comparing a Roman emperor to modern poor people?
Crud, I forget, it's an internet forum and we have to endlessly pick apart things with semantics. Carry on.
That's when you start a new thread then :P
Also, I can fly. Motherf!#%ing FLY. Through the air. From one point on thr map to another in a matter of HOURS. Let's see Tiberius pull that one off.
Hey, yeah, we have the technology for you to take way more vacation than he does! He had to spend a long time if he wanted to get to and from Capri, you could get there whenever you wanted!
Do you use all that extra time to spend more time on vacation than Tiberius? Nope! You have to work!
But hey, we know that the average Joe outdoes any emperor in every aspect of life but sex, so clearly Tiberius can't have had far more leisure.
And not to mention that those two, plus IronTruth, have likely already lived longer than all but a few Roman Emperors.
Shout out for modern medicine. Woot!
Oh hey look, more bad information.
Medicine is certainly one area where the average modern man does have a better life than the emperors.
But out of the first eighteen emperors - the Empire's best-known, most influential period, Augustus, Nero, Tiberius, Trajan, etc, and also the one where dates are clear - those who died of nonmurderous or unclear causes did so at an average of ~63. Even including the murders (the very youngest to die was Caligula at 29) the average is ~53.
As has been said, the only thing they had that I'm not likely to get (or want, for that matter) is choice sex slaves.
As has been said, wrongly. Even if you kind of like mass entertainment or don't want to pay 40k/night to stay in a palace, the basic statement here is still just wrong.
(Hey, why don't you ask the Bruins to come play at your house?)
And not to mention that those two, plus IronTruth, have likely already lived longer than all but a few Roman Emperors.
Shout out for modern medicine. Woot!
Oh hey look, more bad information.
Medicine is certainly one area where the average modern man does have a better life than the emperors.
But out of the first eighteen emperors - the Empire's best-known, most influential period, Augustus, Nero, Tiberius, Trajan, etc - those who died of nonmurderous or unclear causes did so at an average of ~63. Even including the murders (the very youngest to die was Caligula at 29) the average is ~53.
So you're saying you're younger than 53?
Hmmm... fooled me.
Given how simple a thing that was even compared to what we've been discussing before, I admit to more suspecting that you simply don't bother to check things you say about history :p
I'm sure that's unprecedented in political discussion. Bad Quark.
And who needs a drafty old palace with rats.
Nobody, which is probably why they built shiny new palaces with central heating.
Trust me, the Roman Emperors had it good only compared to their contemporaries.
I don't. First, there's no reason to trust you over my education (oh hey, the old topic! :P ) in general terms, and second, setting aside such vaguer opinions on the classical era, your accuracy with more concrete classical facts has been poor enough that there's additional specific reason to mistrust you as an authority on anything relating to that era.
Also, sure, 52, here I come. :p
Why are we having a pointless discussion comparing a Roman emperor to modern poor people?
Crud, I forget, it's an internet forum and we have to endlessly pick apart things with semantics. Carry on.
I think it's important to note that the way our society is moving with respect to technology and other innovations, comparing what we have now with what came before is increasingly unfair. The world has CHANGED. We may reach a point where there really is no comparison.
Med school is pretty much one long IQ test and the ones that make it out the other side with MD in hand are the ones who, if given an IQ test, would typically place no lower than a score of 125.
I would argue it's am extended test of one's finances, not ones intellect. I've met more than a few surprisingly dim doctors. Maybe not brick stupid but surprisingly lacking in even basic knowledge outside their field.
Why yes it is. Very obvious. Americans now being the fattest people on Earth.
This would make more sense if there were no fat people anywhere else on earth. America's population so greatly outstrips other countries we have more fat people by default. That said, we got some large fat people.
But one has to wonder about the woman I saw riding public transit today. Riding because she has to, while herding four pre-school age kids at the same time. One pregnancy can be fairly called an "accident". It's the three that followed it that makes me wonder how low her double-digit IQ actually is. Giving her free college (and free childcare while she goes to class and while she studies) is very, very, very unlikely to help her.
Her kids on the other hand? That's where you might actually make a difference... but how?
You assume they're all hers. I can't tell you how many ugly fights the ladies from my daycare got into with idiotic onlookers when taking us out on school trips. Or my neighbor, who watched me as a little boy-I learned how to curse in Spanish from her when a dumb ass assumed she has been unfaithful to her husband because one of "her" kids was black.
Don't ASSume, Blast.
The world has CHANGED. We may reach a point where there really is no comparison.
I still think that what people actually end up with matters a lot more than the multiplication of choices does, and while people have certainly observed that your random blue-collar stiff has a much expanded menu of choices, I haven't seen people actually show that that causes him to be more entertained, or have more leisure, or eat more luxuriously, or travel more widely, than your pick of Caesars.
I mean, look at the lunches I posted above. If you get into what actually comes of having your pick of the half dozen rices and dozen types of juice, does the average table stack up all that well to Caesar's?*
We've shown that the supermarkets are stocked well enough that it could - but it doesn't seem to.
(I'm not just drawing that conclusion off the first posts in the lunch thread, btw :p )
(*Does it stack up with as little effort by blue-collar stiff as by Caesar?)
Patricians suck!
Vive le Spartacus!