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I'm just now dipping my toes into Pathfinder Society Organized play and was seeking a way to play an archetypal Japanese duelist. Here's my logic chain:
-Use Swashbuckler as my base class with eventual dips into Sword Saint for Iajutsu style sword shenanigans.
-Take Slashing Grace to gain access to Swashbuckler abilities with slashing weapons.
-Take the Adopted trait, choosing Tengu's Swordtrained trait, giving me access to the Katana and allowing me to use it one handed.
The drive for me doing this is my fondness for Legend of the Five Rings (in which several talented duelists are trained by Tengu), and Kurosawa style stoic heroic samurai.
Any input would be appreciated.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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-Take the Adopted trait, choosing Tengu's Swordtrained trait, giving me access to the Katana and allowing me to use it one handed.
Even though the special abilities that members of a race get are called "racial traits", that's not how Adopted works. It gives you a character trait (the same "traits" that you normally pick two of at character creation) that have to be from the "Race" category (as opposed to the Combat, Magic, Faith, Social, etc categories).
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-Take the Adopted trait, choosing Tengu's Swordtrained trait, giving me access to the Katana and allowing me to use it one handed.Even though the special abilities that members of a race get are called "racial traits", that's not how Adopted works. It gives you a character trait (the same "traits" that you normally pick two of at character creation) that have to be from the "Race" category (as opposed to the Combat, Magic, Faith, Social, etc categories).
Ah, got it. I can't help but wonder how many other players make similar mistakes :p
I may have to dip into Sword Saint earlier than planned to get access to the Katana in that case. Thanks for the clarification.
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I play a sword-saint in Jade Regent. Early on, it is really, really hard to get an Iajutsu off. You have to have your sword in its sheath, have challenged your foe, and then have a full-round action to make the attack, which must be your first attack on that foe.
So, it is a swift action to challenge, and you can five foot step, and you can have another weapon out, perhaps a naginata for crowd control, to drop as a free action. But, essentially, the target has to cooperate to make this happen most of the time. Things get a whole lot better at 10th level when you can make the draw and attack as a standard action.
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I play a sword-saint in Jade Regent. Early on, it is really, really hard to get an Iajutsu off. You have to have your sword in its sheath, have challenged your foe, and then have a full-round action to make the attack, which must be your first attack on that foe.
So, it is a swift action to challenge, and you can five foot step, and you can have another weapon out, perhaps a naginata for crowd control, to drop as a free action. But, essentially, the target has to cooperate to make this happen most of the time. Things get a whole lot better at 10th level when you can make the draw and attack as a standard action.
I hadn't thought about how mechanically challenging Iajutsu could be. I was mostly looking at flavor the Iajutsu stuff would add, but when I manage to pull it off it will ooze flavor :)
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There's nothing wrong with the samurai class itself, so as long as you don't mind iaijutsu happening fairly rarely, it's a bundle of fun as is.
I suggest picking Order of the Cockatrice and following the Deadly Stroke feat path. It gives you a lot of Mushashi flavor(a disarming presence), has some pretty nifty feats and comboes decently with Terrifying Iaijutsu.
You might need this feat to make it better though. It's in a setting book unfortunately, so take care.
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I think Adoptive Parentage alternate human racial trait from the Advance Race Guide lets me tie into Tengu enough to meet my needs. I'll just sandbag my attacks/ panache recharge until level 3 and then take Slashing Grace. I may forego the Samurai dip altogether(though I'm REALLY tempted by Order of the Flame) and just run him as a straight Swashbuckler, albeit with a very Japanese flavor.
Have you looked at Daring Champion? It would get you most of what I think you're looking for in Swashbuckler, on a cavalier chassis that gives you an order. Human or Half-Elf could give you the katana EWP at 1st plus weapon focus, and pick up slashing grace at third.
Other options are dipping a level in Warpriest of Shizuru or Kensai Magus for free katana EWP and weapon focus.
I flagged this thread to move to the Advice forum, which tends to get a lot more traffic for build advice.
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I spent a lot of time trying to build myself a Kakita Duelist (Being a fan of L5R, you got it, but for everyone else, think Jin from Samurai Champloo) and I eventually made a build that technically worked, but just left me feeling very disappointed. I am still a bit upset that Paizo didn't release a Swashbuckler archetype focused on Iaijutsu. There is a 3rd party publisher that did, but of course, not society legal.
As far as I am aware, there is no way to meet the requirements for Slashing Grace with a Katana at level 1. In another thread, a player suggested using a scimitar (Close damage and crit range) and just 'reflavoring' it as a Katana, just like you mentioned doing with the class, but ugh... just doesn't feel the same.
If you were interested, the idea for my build was to start out as a Human Sword Saint Samurai with Str 14 and Dex 16, then use my Human feat for Weapon Focus. (The Str was there to help with Attacks and Damage for the first few levels) I used my other feat for dodge because hey, AC is nice and because there was no reason to take Weapon Finesse until level 3, when I would have taken a level in Swashbuckler and gained it for free. I also take Slashing Grace and boom, I'm a quick drawing Samurai. After that, I wasn't entirely certain. I could either hop back over to Samurai for a boost to Iaijutsu damage and Terrifying Iaijutsu (I think that is the ability gained) or just stick with Swashbuckler to gain other abilities faster. I did some crunching and mixed different combinations of the two classes.
In the end, I compared the minimum and maximum damage of the class to various other builds. I do not have the page anymore, but I do remember that the build could do incredible damage... once. Essentially, if he pulled off the Iaijutsu strike, he could maybe out damage the raging barbarian or the blasty Sorceror, but after that, his damage plummetted to a generally 'meh' area. Not bad, per say, but nowhere near the area of other characters.
Now, I will admit, I am completely crap at min-maxing and I am sure that some twink could come along and tell me what to do fix my damage (probably starting with 'Dont play a Samurai/Swashbuckler'), but I had done what I set out to do and was sadly disappointed with my results.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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A cracked white opalescent pyramid ioun stone will give you weapon familiarity with one weapon (presuming that you own Seekers of Secrets as an additional resource).
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If your intent is to be a Musashi-style duelist, you should not be dex based if you want to accurately portray Musashi. He was incredibly strong, and his first duel was won by beating a guy to death with an oar.
He preferred Bokken to blades, and would be a club specialist in game terms.
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As far as I am aware, there is no way to meet the requirements for Slashing Grace with a Katana at level 1.
There are two ways: Human Warpriest or Kensai Magus.
Warpriest of Shizuru gains Weapon proficiency in Katana via favored weapon, Free Weapon Focus in a weapon, Weapon Finesse for the level one feat, and Slashing Grace for the bonus.
Kensai Magus can choose Katana as the weapon of choice, allowing proficiency and free Weapon Focus. Again, your first feat and human bonus go to Finesse and Slashing Grace.
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He was incredibly strong, and his first duel was won by beating a guy to death with an oar.
You are confusing his first duel with his most famous one. Miyamoto Musashi won his first duel at the age of 13 using a quarterstaff. His most famous duel, against Sasaki Kojirō, was at age 30. According to legend, Musashi carved a bokken out of an oar both as an insult to Sasaki that would infuriate him and cause him to act rashly (this was a typical Musashi tactic), and so that his weapon would have greater reach than Sasaki's preferred weapon, the nodachi.
Back on topic, when creating a Musashi-like character, one should consider that Musashi's dueling victories had as much to do with his use of psychology, planning and dirty tricks as they had to do with his skill with weapons.
Gonna ignore the "Musashi" part of the title since ragudaddy obviously simply wants lightly-armored warrior using a katana and not any dual-wielding messiness.
I built something similiar using daring champion cavalier archetype. I dumped Charisma as front-line finessing is pretty MAD if you wanna survive and daring champion is more encouraging of such a build. Plus better Fort over Ref of a swashbuckler is more important in the long run against save-or-die/suck spells.
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 14
Adopted Parentage (tengu) and got Weapon Focus (katana) and free tengu language. Because why not? Gonna get Focus anyways and it's very flavorful for samurai characters.
Picked up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana)
Can't qualify for Slashing Grace til level 3, so for the first 2 levels, you'd only be a tad inaccurate and bit less damage if you simply held katana in two-hands using strength for attack and damage. With Weapon Focus, the to-hit bonus on attacks would be +4 at level 1 (Only 2 off from dex-based character and 1 off from any other martial class that didn't bother with Weapon Focus, which a lot of players don't bother to nowadays). Damage is 1d8+3 and that's only 1 below slashing grace.
At level 3, you get slashing grace. Swashbucklers normally have precise strike by now, but a daring champion has had challenge since level 1. Which actually multiplies on a critical hit. And challenge stacks with...level 4 precise strike. Now you'd have pretty great damage potential and more optimized stats.
I would look at a slayer for this.
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He was incredibly strong, and his first duel was won by beating a guy to death with an oar.You are confusing his first duel with his most famous one. Miyamoto Musashi won his first duel at the age of 13 using a quarterstaff. His most famous duel, against Sasaki Kojirō, was at age 30. According to legend, Musashi carved a bokken out of an oar both as an insult to Sasaki that would infuriate him and cause him to act rashly (this was a typical Musashi tactic), and so that his weapon would have greater reach than Sasaki's preferred weapon, the nodachi.
Back on topic, when creating a Musashi-like character, one should consider that Musashi's dueling victories had as much to do with his use of psychology, planning and dirty tricks as they had to do with his skill with weapons.
Ah, I remember the first duel more vividly because it's so much more badass. A 13 year old kid with a big stick hit with a big overhand blow to the head and it was over.
Agreed on the psychology aspects. An intimidation build with a dip of thug rogue, combined with Lore warden is a great way to go to frighten and sicken foes and then apply any dirty tricks or other maneuvers as needed.
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@ koujow: I actually found and read one of your threads concerning swashbuckling with a katana. It seems that everyone agrees that it's a rough endeavor. I've never been one to min/max to build a mechanically superior tank or the best nuke build. You're also right on the nose with my flavor leaning towards a Kakita duelist or Jin from Samurai Champloo rather than a historically accurate Musashi. I have a wandering swordsman in mind, roaming the world seeking more challenging foes. Apologies for the poor explanation :P
I'm currently thinking First level of Sword Saint for flavor/ mechanical reasons, then the remainder as Swashbuckler, giving me the dexterous fighter/ duelist I have in mind. I may abandon the Adoptive Parentage if this is the case for mechanical purposes, but maintain the flavor of a Tengu trained badass. I may dip back into Sword Saint on occasion, but the more I break it down the more I'm realizing that I'm wanting to build a Swashbuckler with an eastern flair.
@ zefig: I did look very hard at the Daring Champion, and had it been an alternate build for the Samurai rather than the Cavalier I might have gone for it. In the end my appreciation for Resolve over Tactician made up my mind for me.
I would advise against combining Sword Saint with the Swashbuckler. Iaijutsu strike imposes a -4 AC after use. Potentially, this stacks with the AC penalty accrued from your Challenge Ability (Which must be used to actitvate Iaijutsu Strike). With a potential -6 AC and no heavy armor or shield, it simply takes one pitiless GM to end your character.
Iaijutsu Strike is extremely flavorful, but simply is not worth it. Your samurai will inevitably suffer a brutal demise.
I strongly suggest you make use of the Human Adoptive Parantage trait combined with Daring Champion or simply Swashbuckler. I know you aren't worried about optimization, but the build you're pursuing is a death sentence for what looks to be a highly flavorful and very fun character. I'd hate to see it cut short.
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-Take the Adopted trait, choosing Tengu's Swordtrained trait, giving me access to the Katana and allowing me to use it one handed.Even though the special abilities that members of a race get are called "racial traits", that's not how Adopted works. It gives you a character trait (the same "traits" that you normally pick two of at character creation) that have to be from the "Race" category (as opposed to the Combat, Magic, Faith, Social, etc categories).Ah, got it. I can't help but wonder how many other players make similar mistakes :p
I may have to dip into Sword Saint earlier than planned to get access to the Katana in that case. Thanks for the clarification.
I'd say it's gotta be at least 50% that make that mistake about the Adopted Trait.
I'd say it's gotta be at least 50% that make that mistake about the Adopted Trait.-Take the Adopted trait, choosing Tengu's Swordtrained trait, giving me access to the Katana and allowing me to use it one handed.Even though the special abilities that members of a race get are called "racial traits", that's not how Adopted works. It gives you a character trait (the same "traits" that you normally pick two of at character creation) that have to be from the "Race" category (as opposed to the Combat, Magic, Faith, Social, etc categories).Ah, got it. I can't help but wonder how many other players make similar mistakes :p
I may have to dip into Sword Saint earlier than planned to get access to the Katana in that case. Thanks for the clarification.
Really, that's on Paizo for making "Race Traits" and "Racial Traits" different things. Makes confusion inevitable.
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Indeed. It's even worse after the ACG. You have the Swashbuckler and the Swashbuckler. The Brawler and the Brawler, and so on.
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Musashi was all about getting in his opponent's head, and getting them to act emotionally, thus throwing them off their game. It's more or less explicitly stated out in the Book of Five Rings (which reminds, I haven't read that this week, time to go find my book!). A duel, and indeed, any combat, is about disrupting your opponent if you are to win. A fight to the death is just that, it's war, and the goal in martial science is to win. Honor has no place in a fight to the death.
That said, as much as I love Iaijutsu Strike and the Sword Saint, it's better suited to Kenshin builds of Samurai X/Ruroni Kenshin fame. I take it whenever I play a samurai (usually) just so I can get rid of the damn mount.
Personally, I'm partial to the above idea of refluffing a Thug rogue with a Lore Warden fighter. Sneak Attack is right up Musashi's alley.
Edit: With two weapon fighting, Katana - Wakizashi. His style was all about learning to use the katana in a single hand, and the wakizashi in the other (longsword and shortsword), as that provided the most flexible method of fighting. He also proposed that all followers of the martial science (IE: War) to know how to use all of the weapons of their trade, but shouldn't specialize in any but the sword. Each weapon has their place on a battlefield, depending on where that battlefield is. One can spend their lives mastering naginata (spear/polearm) combat, and find that it is useless in a hallway or other tight confined space. One can master the shortsword for quick and precise strikes, and find themselves downed by an arrow or bullet out on a field. So, it is good to know how each weapon functions, in a sense.
Which is more or less a moot point in Pathfinder, given the extremely odd existence of hallways that are wide enough for two men to walk side by side shoulder to shoulder, no matter where you are.
Just going to throw this out there, thinking of mechanics without so much the original theme (although it works somewhat thematically, in a more distant sense)- There was a traditional for sword (or short spear) and shield in Japan. And it appears that the shields were even often either turtle shells or patterned after turtle shells.
It was an Okinawan martial art, same origin as sai, tonfa, and nunchucks. Interesting history about that, since it is the southern islands of modern japan, and originally they were a separate kingdom that later got invaded by the main islands of Japan (it was a large trade hub for sea trade with the Asian mainland). So there was obviously a lot of bad blood going around, and there is a reason why Okinawan weapons are often associated with the espionage of ninjas, as well as the fact that a lot of the weapons were adopted from farm tools.
Anyway, back to the main point- it is possible to have a samurai character and still use shields. And shields generally look like a good idea for swashbucklers and daring champions.
Another question- why does it have to be an actual katana? I mean, I never entirely got why katana were separate from scimitars as 'curved swords'. But this is more of a complaint of weapon system bloat (a lot of weapons could use folding over into a broader representational category). Still, you could make do with a scimitar and forget all this feat or magical item stuff, and it would only cost 1 pt of damage.
He preferred Bokken to blades, and would be a club specialist in game terms.
Yes. You beat me to it. :)
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Remember to beat a famous greatswordsman to death, with a paddle.
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I wish paizo would bring in the bokken stats/rules from Jade Regent (book 5 I think) for general use. Would love to use it for PFS.
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As far as I am aware, there is no way to meet the requirements for Slashing Grace with a Katana at level 1.There are two ways: Human Warpriest or Kensai Magus.
Warpriest of Shizuru gains Weapon proficiency in Katana via favored weapon, Free Weapon Focus in a weapon, Weapon Finesse for the level one feat, and Slashing Grace for the bonus.
Kensai Magus can choose Katana as the weapon of choice, allowing proficiency and free Weapon Focus. Again, your first feat and human bonus go to Finesse and Slashing Grace.
Well, you are right, BUT... it doesn't work. Being proficient with a Katana lets you use it as a one handed weapon. Weapon Finesse lets you finesse Light weapons (and a list of non-light weapons). The only way to finesse a Katana is to get Slashing Grace, which lets you treat your one handed slashing katana as a one handed piercing katana for the purpose of Swashbuckler's Finesse, which lets you use one handed weapons.
But those options would let you do it by level 2, rather than level 3. That is a huge boon.
Play Samurai Sword Saint at first level, play 3 scenarios.
Before 2. level, rebuild to swashbuckler, take weapon focus katana, level to 2. level, but go samurai sword saint.
3. level take slashing grace.
I suggest going half-half between the two classes, looks like a funny build. Actually plan on doing that myself.
Take combat reflexes, your defense will be Oppprtune Parry and Reposte!
A good UMD skill and a wand of shield could also help you raise your AC.
In PFS it´s possible to ask other who can use it to buff you before you expect a combat.
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Musashi-style duelist? IMO the more true form of this and the best option is 1 level dip Crusader Cleric of Shizuru at 3rd level to pickup Weapon Focus: Katana for free and spend 3rd level feat to get Crusader's Flurry. Rest of levels all into Monk. Take the Quickdraw feat and Arcane Strike (if you take Qinggong archetype, which you should) and buy like 2-3 Scabbards of Vigor. You have a very quick, disciplined character that can free action draw a Katana and activate the SoV, use his swift action for +dmg at no penalty to your attack role (otherwise use swift to spend ki points but they are usually limited), and Flurry of Blows away with a +1 keen katana. The choice I'd leave you with is pick a Monk archetype that fits your style but doesn't remove Flurry of Blows and there you go.
Essentially an "Iajutsu style" character with a WAY easier way of doing it, little less hp and less armor, but more mobility and some interesting abilities depending on archetype. Not as beefy, but should outdamage the Samurai due to the fact that you can Flurry of Blows way more often and earlier on than what damage the Samurai could do (Samurai's extra damage is precision. Monks flurry is multiple attacks which means lots of crit chances with a 15-20 crit range sword. Truly a quick & deadly duelist.)
Another option could be sticking to a wakizashi.
It´s finessable and you can get slashing grace for it.
Damage dice is a bit lower, but it´s still a japanese sword and could be sold as a faster katana.
I remember reading about an item that you could apply to weapons, easing their use one step. Don´t remember the name though.
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I've looked into dipping into spellcasting classes like Kensai or Warpriest to gain access to the Katana, but the spellcasting doesn't feel on theme for what I want to accomplish. I will say that dipping into Warpriest first will ease the burden on a party healer somewhat, I'm just trying to justify to myself the reason this character would have begun in the church rather than in a lord's service. I also don't own the Dragon Empire Gazetteer and am having a hard time justifying getting it just to use one page of a Deities rules.
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The real Musashi finally stopped using a sword in favour of a bamboo pole.
It could be longer and would not shatter, and if Musashi hit you with it you died.
And as a martial arts student, one of the best books I know of on unarmed combat is Musahi's Book of 5 Rings. And its not about unarmed combat, but combat with melee weapons.
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So my current plan to achieve my idea with minimum fuss and purchases (beyond what I already own):
1st Level- Human Swashbuckler: Adoptive parentage (Tengu), Weapon Focus
2nd Level- Fighter: Slashing Grace (plus heavy armor prof. should the need arise).
3rd Level- Swashbuckler: Combat Reflexes
4th Level+ Mostly Swashbuckler, with occasional dips into anything that looks interesting.
This really give me what I'm looking for both mechanically and thematically as quickly as possible.
I believe I have abandoned the dip into Samurai entirely. I would have wanted to go Sword Saint (to get rid of the mount advancement tree), which would have required purchasing another book I simply wasn't going to get much use out of (Dragon Empire Gazetteer). So as much as I wanted there to be a Samurai background in there somewhere I'll just have to settle for some Bushi background instead (although Order of the Flame would have been a blast to roleplay).
As an aside, this has all gotten me to look very closely as running a Kitsune Swashbuckler. I haven't decided if I want to do so yet, but I think it would be a blast as well.
The adoptive parentage thing will not function.
The trait "adopted" only let´s you take other traits, the human only feat "racial heritage" makes you count as a tengu for the purpose of other feats etc. None of this gives you access to a tengus racial abilities, like you intend too.
The only way is to either take exotic weapon proficiency or a class that gives you access to katana.
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The adoptive parentage thing will not function.
The trait "adopted" only let´s you take other traits, the human only feat "racial heritage" makes you count as a tengu for the purpose of other feats etc. None of this gives you access to a tengus racial abilities, like you intend too.
The only way is to either take exotic weapon proficiency or a class that gives you access to katana.
Adoptive Parentage gives you the chosen race's languages and weapon familiarization at the expense of the human's bonus feat. It's not the adopted racial trait, but rather an alternative human trait available in the Advance Race Guide.
As for the Daring Champion I thought long and hard about it, but in the end what I was really looking for was a pure DEX based fighter, and if I went with Daring Champion I wouldn't have access to the Swashbuckler fun I wanted to use until Level 4, and I was afraid there would be several levels where I just wasn't a help to the party (I intend to dump STR in favor of other Abilities).
I had thought he had switched to wooden swords, mainly to try to stop killing the people who dueled him, as he was piling up an awful long list of people challenging him to revenge their relatives slain by his blades. It got to the point where he was disguising himself as a woman and went into hermitage to hide. (which is when he wrote his seminal work, Legends of Five Rings)The real Musashi finally stopped using a sword in favour of a bamboo pole.
It could be longer and would not shatter, and if Musashi hit you with it you died.
And as a martial arts student, one of the best books I know of on unarmed combat is Musahi's Book of 5 Rings. And its not about unarmed combat, but combat with melee weapons.
The greatest swordsman of all crossdressing. Would not happen in the west.
Musashi killed his greatest opponent, Sasaki Kojiro, with a wooden sword, a bokken, then renounced lethal duels. At least that is what a google search just turned up. Which makes us both half right, if correct. I am not an expert on Musashi's life.