As an exercise, I'm trying to rationalize the economy in my own home brew world. But currently as my players began moving from their tribal village in the far North to further south (don't anger a winter goddess when you live in the Northern hemisphere), I thought that this would be a good time to try and change a few things instead of sticking with the whole Pathfinder economy since it doesn't work well with the Craft skills and my homebrew world doesn't have that much gold laying around in forsaken dungeons and dragon lairs.
If it's alright, I would like to ask for some input on how to make this work smoother, better or both.
Some facts about the home brew world:
NPCs:
The world is mostly inhabited by low-level NPCs (HD 1~4). There is a number of mid-level NPCs (HD 5~8)and some higher level NPCs (9~12) running around but they are mostly monarchs, leaders of organizations and scion of powerful beings. There are very few high level NPCs (13~17) but they are legendary characters and probably won't ever appear in the campaign itself unless the PCs try to take over the world. Characters beyond 18th levels are currently non-existent.
Magic:
This is a low-to-mid-magic world. The highest level spell available are 4th level spell while the highest level divine spells are 5th level spells. It doesn't mean that higher level spells don't exist, it just means that they are beyond the reach of the PCs and the rest of NPCs unless they can cast these spells themselves.
Monsters:
The world is constantly besieged by the low level monsters. Goblins, boggards, kobolds, orcs and the like. Nothing too serious... yet. The nations of the world are holding them off well on their own.
Craft:
I'm using a modified version of the Crafting rule based on "Making Craft Work" by Spes Magna Games. No more 20 weeks full plate! The pdf's only a dollar and it's a pretty good read - either way, better than the default rules. Note that this doesn't change how much you earn when you use Craft skills as a means of earning money.
What I need input on:
Coinage:
I'm currently making silver pieces the dominant currency. 10 copper pieces still equal to 1 silver piece, but 1 gold piece equal to 100 silver pieces. Gold is only ever traded between the wealthy and powerful while everyone else uses silver pieces for trade. Platinum pieces is not used for trading at all, though platinum itself is used in making jewellery. (Note: My players have been living on barter trading so they haven't even seen copper coins yet! It's interesting seeing them trying to get new weapons by trading in meat and pelts along with the liberal use of Appraise and Diplomacy rolls).
Price of Goods and Services:
Price of mundane items are now reduced by one step. For example, a longsword is now 15sp instead of 15gp and an anti-toxin is now 50sp instead of 50gp.
Price of precious stones, gems and other valuables are reduced by one-tenth in gp. An exotic white pearl that usually costs 100gp is now 10gp. But that's still 1,000sp! Trading in large amount is usually made either in gem stones or trade bars (silver and gold, light and standard). Paper money don't exist... but there are trade organizations that are willing to give out promissory notes.
Magic items remain priced in gp. The rarity of spellcasters (especially artificers) in general make them one of the most sought commodity among the royalties. However, I'm thinking of making scrolls and potions cheaper so that it is affordable - something like a 90% discount on its price. A potion of cure light wounds would be priced at 5gp instead of 50gp, but when you factor in the fact that 5gp is still 500sp...
All magic items now require the expenditure of XP, at a rate of 10% of the price of the magic item. You CAN lose your levels for creating a magic item too powerful.
Cost of living:
Stolen directly from Ultimate Campaign and slightly edited:
Destitute (0 sp/month) - For the beggars, the homeless, and those who can't find work and have no money.
Poor (3 sp/month) - For those who have little money to spare and no work (or only work a few days in a week).
Average (10 sp/month) - Most of the world. Even an untrained labourer who are willing to work lives off in this category.
Middle-Class (50 sp/month) - For the well-trained experts, warriors and adventurers.
Wealthy (100 sp or 1gp/month) - For the 'petty' nobles that control small towns and your well-to-do merchants.
Extravagant (1,000 sp or 10gp/month) - For the nobles that control large cities and extremely savvy merchants.
Royalty (100,000 sp or 1,000gp/month) - Royalties only.
How I got the cost of living:
I actually ran a simple simulation for NPCs (excel ftw!) to earn their keep and see where most of them would fall into in terms of lifestyle. Craft and Profession are interchangeable in this case. Here's some of my notes:
"Labourers
Untrained Labourer: Takes 10 in Craft check with +0 bonus. Earns 5sp/week or 20sp/month.
Trained Labourer: Takes 10 in Craft check with +4 bonus. Earns 7.5sp/ week or 30sp/month.
Expert Labourer: Takes 10 in Craft check with +11 bonus. Earns 10.5sp/week or 42sp/month."
Master Labourer: Takes 10 in Craft check with +15 bonus. Earns 12.5sp/week or 50sp/month."
"Common Households
2 parents and 3 kids:
Parent 1 (trained labourer) - Earns 7.5sp/week;
Parent 2 (untrained labourer) - Earns 5sp/week;
Kids (2 untrained labourers with young template, youngest one is not earning) - Earn 9sp/week.
This household earns 21.5sp/week or 86sp/month with an upkeep of 50sp/month for an average lifestyle. The family has a monthly leftover of 36sp."
"The Business Class
The merchant running a smithy
Assume that the smithy is operated by a blacksmith and his three apprentices, with the following bonuses: +15, +6, +6 and +2. The smithy can churn out 11 martial weapons and 3 simple weapons in a week. Assume that the products were all sold at the end of the day, it would yield the business around 171sp. Minus the cost of goods and operation (56sp for the materials+34.5sp for the smiths), the smithy would have earn a gross profit of 80sp a week or 320 a month. As the merchant runs the store front, there is no additional cost for a store clerk."
(Note: Yes, yes. Running a business is more complex than this. But for the purpose of this exercise let's just assume that he has a fixed buyer that is willing to buy everything he produces. I also haven't calculate the upkeep of maintaining the smithy itself and paying for taxes and such.)
"The Ruling Class - Nobility
Small town with 1000 population
Head Tax - 1sp/head = 1,000sp/month
Income Tax - 2sp/working adult (assume 75%) = 1,500sp/month
Entry Toll - 1sp/head (assume 150/day) = 4,500sp/month (I'm probably pushing it)
Commercial Tax - None (to increase commerce/traffic) = 0sp/month
Private Income = 1,000sp/month
Total = 7,000sp/month"
(Note: I haven't calculate how much COST is involved in running a small town, so this will have to do for now. This involve costs such as maintaining the town infrastructure and his own manor, hiring and paying for his guards and employees, expanding the town, pay for a spell or two (Plant Growth comes to mind), etc. Also note that I do consider the noble is taxing the town in excess.)
About Magic
"Magic Items
A longsword is 15sp. A masterwork longsword is 315sp. A magical +1 longsword is 2031gp, and costs 1015gp, 203XP and two days to create. Because of its price and XP cost, only the more - if not the most - influential figures may commission these magical weapons to be made."
(Note: It's a low magic setting, and i need an in game reason to keep the production of magic items low. Price is one, XP cost is two. This will definitely make scribe scroll and brew potion more valuable though because of the 90% discount. Then again, there aren't that many spellcasters around anyways.)
"Spellcasting services.
Caster Level x Spell Level x 50sp.
Note: arcane spellcasters may charge higher than usual due to their rarity and persecution in some areas. divine spellcasters may substitute tithing or special services as payments instead, divine spellcasters may waive a portion of the payment if service petitioner is of same faith;
Arcane Price Divine Price
0th 50sp+ 0th 25sp+
1st 100sp+ 1st 50sp+
2nd 600sp+ 2nd 300sp+
3rd 3000sp+ 3rd 1500sp+
4th N/A 4th 2800sp+
5th N/A 5th 4500sp+"
Cost of some items:
Clothing: Artisan’s Outfit (1sp), Commoner’s Outfit (5cp), Peasant’s Outfit (1cp)
Farm animals: Cattle (50sp), Chicken (1sp), Donkey/Mule (8sp), Duck (2sp), Goat (6sp), Oxes (24sp), Pig (10sp), Sheep (20sp); Note: animals can be sold off for meat at roughly twice their original prices. Younger animals are sold off roughly at a quarter to a half of their original price. Animals listed here are of average quality and size.
Foodstuff (1 pound): Beans (2cp), Cheese (2cp), Chicken (2cp), Citrus (3cp), Coffee Beans (1sp), Flour (2cp), Honey (1sp), Maple Syrup (1sp), Olives (3cp), Turnips (2cp), Wheat (1cp)
Herbs and Spices (1 pound): Allspice (1sp), Chocolate (10sp), Common Herbs (Garlic, Mint, Mustard, Oregano) (5cp), Uncommon Herbs (Basil, Cinnamon, Cloves, Dill, Nutmeg, Rosemary) (1sp), Rare Herbs (Cardamom, Chillies, Cumin, Fennel, Ginger, Pepper, Vanilla) (2sp), Saffron (15sp), Salt (5sp), Tea (Common) (1sp)
Metal (1 pound): Copper (5sp), Coal (5cp) (10lbs), Charcoal (3cp) (10lbs), Gold (50gp), Iron (1sp), Marble (5sp), Masonry Stone (5cp), Silver (50sp); Note: A standard trade bar weighs 20lbs. Therefore, a trade bar of silver is worth 1,000sp or 10,000cp while a standard gold bar is worth 1,000gp or 100,000sp. A lighter standard is available and weighs 10lbs. Silver light trade bar is worth 500sp while gold light trade bar is worth 500gp or 50,000sp.
Textiles (1 square yard or 1 pelt): Cotton (8sp), Thin Leather (5cp), Thick Leather (3sp), Linen (4sp), Fox Pelt (5sp), Mink Pelt (3sp), Rabbit Pelt (1sp), Silk (10sp), Wolf Pelt (4sp), Wool (6sp)
Services (per person): Road or Gate toll (1cp); Doctor (1sp) (does not include medicine), Laundry (1sp), Lawyer (Competent) (3sp), Messenger (2cp/mile), Nurse (7cp), Sage (15sp/day), Scribe (Text) (1sp), Scribe (Map) (10sp); Slave (50sp+)
Inns: Inn (Poor) (1cp), Inn (Common) (5cp), Inn (Good) (2sp), Suite (Small) (4sp), Suite (Average) (16sp), Suite (Good) (32sp), Suite (Luxurious) (64sp+).
Drinks: Ale (4cp), Mead (5cp), Wine (Common) (1sp), Wine (1lbs) (10sp); Coffee (Common) (2cp), Coffee (Fine) (5cp), Milk (4cp), Tea (3cp)
Food: Bread (2cp), Chesse (1cp), Chocolate (5sp), Honey (1sp), Maple Syrup (1sp), Meal (Poor) (1sp), Meal (Common) (4sp), Meal (Good) (8sp), Meal (Fine) (15sp), Meal (Banquet) (30sp+), Trail Rations (per day 0 (5cp)
Alchemical Items: Alchemist’s Fire (20sp), Acid (10sp), Dye (1sp), Soap (1cp), Oil (Lamp) (1cp), Oil (Kerosene) (5sp), Vermin Repellent (5sp); Antitoxin (50sp), Smelling Salt (25sp);
Others: Bear Trap (2sp), Candle (1cp), Firewood (per day) (1cp), Fishhook (1cp), Bell Net (2sp), Butterfly Net (5sp), Fishing Net (5sp), Heatstone (20sp), Lamp (1sp), Map (50sp), Steel Mirror (10sp), Torch (1cp), Hemp Rope (50ft) (1sp)
I think that's most of it, if I didn't left anything out from my current notes. I still have to run though the Stronghold Builder book from Wizards and see if I can import it into my game since I adore the rooms. The rules? Not so much.
Very interesting stuff. Looks ok to me, although I would assume a playtest would be needed to make the final tweaks.
As a DM I love the detail, although I think much of it won't be that apparent to the PCs unless they are running a business or something else like that. Still pretty cool though!
@Dazzlerdal: Go ahead and steal it. I don't mind. :p
And that's a very good idea there about the weapons. Perhaps instead of making it 15gp (that's a king's ransom since it's 1,500sp), maybe make it 150sp instead? I would need to rework the calculation and see how this works out.
@Dragonsbane: That's why I'm asking for suggestions. It looks great on paper but I'm not sure how it's actually going to work in a real campaign.
Also, I would like to take this concept further and apply it on a kingdom level. But... I'm still not done with the noble yet though so that will have to wait.
@Mathius:
1. Yes, all encounters are weakened appropriately. This is a low-level campaign and the PCs won't be fighting any dragons anytime soon. It is also unlikely that the PCs will ever gain anything with a bonus of +3 and beyond. Similarly, PCs will unlikely face anything that wields a magic weapon - unless it's one of the unique enemies, but still nothing beyond +3. On the other hand, the PCs can look at other alternatives. Like poison.
2. Wealth by level is reduced to sp. It's working splendidly as my players look after their stuff and actually bargains with the NPCs for cheaper prices.
3. I'm really not sure about this one. Seems like it's a mythic ability more than heroic. The PCs are on a path of becoming heroes, not demigods. Rest be assured that the PCs can at least pay a few coppers to stay in an inn.
@Dazzlerdal: Here's the note on how I worked out how much the family earned:
"Consider that there is a hardworking family of five. A pair of adults and three children. Assume that one of the parents work a normal job in town and have an income of 7.5sp per week. Meanwhile, the other adult will be at home taking care of the kids while growing their own food such as poultry, a pig or two, and maybe a small garden of vegetables. The kids might be chopping wood or going into nearby woods to gather useable herbs, wild-berries and sometimes a wild hare. Assume that these activities is enough to generate some measure of wealth by selling the extra produce/catch-of-the-day. Also assume that the youngest child is not capable of work yet.
To work out their craft or profession check, assume the adult parents and two working children are untrained and have no bonus from intelligence or feats. They would have a check of 10, 9, 9 and producing an income of 5sp, 4.5sp and 4.5sp - 14sp from those at home. In total, the family has a weekly income of 21.5sp, or 86sp per month. Since the family has an upkeep of a total of 50sp per month, the family would then have a monthly average saving of 36sp, which they could live reasonable well off of.
The family could then spend the money on a list of goods and services as well as trade goods that are available to them (note to self: the average one-man family unit is rare considering that common youth gets married by the time they reach adulthood, which is around the age of 16~18).
Some of the common goods that the family might purchase: several new Commoner’s Outfit for each of them (5sp), some new livestock (probably not a cattle, oxen or a sheep, but a few chicken or ducks is well within their means), bringing his family out for dinner (4sp common meals for each of them). Since 36sp a month is still not too much money maybe they should save it up and bury them under their bed – in a few more months’ time they could probably afford the services of a doctor and some medicine if one of them fall sick. Or an antitoxin if a venomous snake bit them in the ankle.
In theory, this family can save up to 432sp a year, or 4gp and 32sp a year providing that nothing adverse happens during the year."
The main assumption here is that the family is a hard-working family of five though and works almost everyday to keep the family afloat - and nothing bad happens.
Anyways, now that I reviewed my notes, making the weapons 10 times more expensive than it is now makes more sense to me. Imagine trading three swords for an cattle with the current pricing system!
Okay, so using a cattle in exchange for swords is a bad analogy. But then again, so is bartering 20 arrows for fresh but a roughly skinned wolf pelt (taking an in-game example here). I'm not even going into the second-hand goods realm yet.
Anyway, I'm glad that you at least like the framework. As I said before, I don't know how this will work in a real campaign so any and all inputs are welcome.
Let's get to the steel part. 50sp a pound sounds about right, considering that you need to pay for both iron, coal, a smelter and a technician to smelt it. Assume that the total cost of a pound of steel is 25sp (1.5sp worth of materials, 7.5sp for labour, 10sp for the smelter and 6sp for anything else that I miss since I'm not a professional smelter) though I would also assume that the cost should be cheaper than 25sp per pound at the end because of mass production - you don't produce 1lbs of steel, you produce hundreds of pounds of steel at one go. Cost for labour and rent is diluted.
Now, assume that I agree that a steel forged longsword would cost around 5gp to forge (4lbs worth of steel sounds about right, and just assume that the 3gp is enough to cover everything else). You can still sell it at gp if you are willing to wait. You won't lose much business as you still have apprentices working on other less lucrative items (...expert/master blacksmiths almost always have at least one apprentice, right?)
Either way, our calculation ends up the same as the blacksmith would earn roughly 10gp in gross profit - buuuut there's also all that apprentice and rentals to consider (if said smith don't own the forge) so I would give him only 1 month holiday.
For my campaign though I'm keeping it at 150sp a longsword. I'm taking demand and supply into factor here since the nations are on guard against each other (I've confirmed that there's now a NG Kingdom, a LN Theocracy and a LE Magocracy-Wannabe in the known realms, discounting all the no-man-lands in between).
I've read that it may take from weeks to one full month to produce a proper sword in feudal times, but then again they're probably not working on the same sword for 8 hours every single day. Also, apprentices are always present because while the master is working the blade, the apprentices are working on the hilt, the scabbard, etc.
My... 'experiments' with the new rule set that I used (source in first post) dictated that an inexperience smith (+1 bonus) will have to roll to craft a sword. He spent 10 days working on it, burning an additional 30% worth of iron.
My second experiment is for an apprentice smith (+5 bonus, taking 10) to forge a longsword. He spent 4 days working on the sword with no accidents.
My third and last experiment is for a master smith (whooping +15 bonus, taking 10) to forge a longsword. He spent only one day and he finishes the sword.
It's alright. :)
That post IS a bit long.
I might make it into a blog post and post it somewhere when I have the time to compile all my notes (I have 10k worth of writing that I need to rearrange).