as topic
a friend and I are having a friendly debate about an encounter i've designed to end an adventure that would take the party to lvl 2.
Assuming a party of a fighter/cleric/ranged/support against a lvl 3 necromancer with the fungal creature template.
No. It's a boss encounter, and likely an easy one if he doesn't have minions due to the party acting 4 times for every action of hit.
If he does however the CR of the encounter as a whole is likely to be quite a bit higher, so careful with that.
no minions, he isn't stocked up with magic missles to desmiate the party or anything, an average AC of 17.
the idea is that when it encounters the party it will cast web and unleash its fungal poison cloud to do con damage
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A single encounter will probably die very quickly even at CR+2. Unless it gets a suprise round, I doubt your necromancer will last past hte first turn, honestly.
A better encounter would be a level 2 necromancer with 4 CR 1/2 fungal-fluffed plague zombies. This is actually a much more challenging encounter and should last longer.
*edit*
You would think pathfinder would model 'powerful evil boss wizard' encounters well, given how prolific the trope is, but it really doesn't. Note that the majority of caster encounters in the adventure paths have some kind of backup muscle.
Higher-level-than-your-PCs casters who use save-or-suck spells are even tricker to balance, because even though theoretically your party should mop the floor with them, if they get a series of unlucky saves it could be a TPK.
As a basic rule of thumb, unless your monster is some huge HP-inflated monster like a dragon, never do solo encounters, ever. Always mix in some weak minions.
A lot of times I would prefer a pair of CR 2's or a CR 2 with a couple minions for a less swingy fight.
A solo CR 3 will often end really quick leaving you with that anticlimactic feeling.
There are a few CR 3's in the bestiary that are really dangerous for a 1st level party but my guess is your solo necromancer will get taken down really fast.
It depends though, what point buy do your players have and are they experienced players with regards to building characters and tactics?
Will they be meeting him after a long adventuring day already tuckered out? That would help.
Edit: Crap two ninjas in here
A better encounter would be a level 2 necromancer with 4 CR 1/2 fungal-fluffed plague zombies. This is actually a much more challenging encounter and should last longer.
Definitely^^
no point buy, dice roll, but above average characters, 2 of which are very familiar with the game, while others are trying to figure out the game.
I ask, because my friend thinks that it may be to difficult an encounter for a first lvl party to handle, given how your looking at a 40% success rate for saves, which alot of the encounter is built upon
Yeah so half of them take con damage then he dies. The end.
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Just a quick note if he's casting Web, he's a CR 4 (3rd level Wizard +1 Template).
Let's do a quick test run of how this fight goes:
Fighter passes save. Cleric fails. Archer and "support" pass.
Fighter moves in an smashes Necromancer.
But misses.
Archer arches.
Support...supports. I assume he's a Bard, so Inspire Courage.
Wizard releases spore cloud.
Fighter takes Con damage.
Fighter smashes again.
He has bad luck.
Support fires a crossbow.
Nope.
Wizard 5 ft. steps back and Magic Missiles the Fighter.
Fighter saves.
Fighter smashes.
Poor Fighter.
Archer arches.
Bad die rolls extended this fight a good bit. Necromancer is now dead (he should have only had about 18 HP). Nobody dies unless Fighter continues to roll like shit against a DC 13 or so poison.
But you get the idea. If the Fighter had hit even once for about , he'd be long dead.
Yup wight is one of the CR 3's I'd worry about, also a shadow can be sketchy.
Well... CR is difficult to say without knowing what are the abilities of the creatures. CR gives us a reasonable estimation of how powerful a creature is, but it's not an exact science. There are encounters that should be really powerful but are not really all that scary (T-Rex), and others that should be a cake walk but are really powerful for their CR (I'm looking at you, leech swarm!)
For example... Having multiple SoD (save or die) effects can really amp up the danger of an encounter composed of relatively low CR creatures (I've seen a small group of medusas kill a much more powerful party just because 4 Fort saves per round is really freaking deadly!)
Just a quick note if he's casting Web, he's a CR 4 (3rd level Wizard +1 Template).
Let's do a quick test run of how this fight goes:
[dice=Reflex saves vs Web]4d20
Fighter passes save. Cleric fails. Archer and "support" pass.
Fighter moves in an smashes Necromancer.
1d20+4
But misses.
Archer arches.
1d20+5
[dice=Damage]1d8+1
Support...supports. I assume he's a Bard, so Inspire Courage.
Wizard releases spore cloud.
[dice=Fighter Fort]1d20+4
Fighter takes 1d2 Con damage.
Fighter smashes again.
1d20+5
He has bad luck.
[dice=Archer]1d20+6
[dice=Damage]1d8+2
Support fires a crossbow.
1d20+4
Nope.
Wizard 5 ft. steps back and Magic Missiles the Fighter. 1d4+1
Fighter saves.
1d20+4
Fighter smashes.
1d20+5
Poor Fighter.
Archer arches. 1d20+6
[dice=Damage]1d8+2
Bad die rolls extended this fight a good bit. Necromancer is now dead (he should have only had about 18 HP). Nobody dies unless Fighter continues to roll like s+&& against a DC 13 or so poison.
But you get the idea. If the Fighter had hit even once for about 2d6+6, he'd be long dead.
Used This Necromancer as a template and added the Fungal Creature Template to make it a CR 3 and changed some spells to get the fluff i wanted.
Don't get me wrong it is a cool enemy you made there, I would freak out getting webbed and then fungus spored at level one! It has more flavor then most level one boss fights for sure. He just really needs a couple minions.
Used This Necromancer as a template and added the Fungal Creature Template to make it a CR 3 and changed some spells to get the fluff i wanted.Just a quick note if he's casting Web, he's a CR 4 (3rd level Wizard +1 Template).
Let's do a quick test run of how this fight goes:
[dice=Reflex saves vs Web]4d20
Fighter passes save. Cleric fails. Archer and "support" pass.
Fighter moves in an smashes Necromancer.
1d20+4
But misses.
Archer arches.
1d20+5
[dice=Damage]1d8+1
Support...supports. I assume he's a Bard, so Inspire Courage.
Wizard releases spore cloud.
[dice=Fighter Fort]1d20+4
Fighter takes 1d2 Con damage.
Fighter smashes again.
1d20+5
He has bad luck.
[dice=Archer]1d20+6
[dice=Damage]1d8+2
Support fires a crossbow.
1d20+4
Nope.
Wizard 5 ft. steps back and Magic Missiles the Fighter. 1d4+1
Fighter saves.
1d20+4
Fighter smashes.
1d20+5
Poor Fighter.
Archer arches. 1d20+6
[dice=Damage]1d8+2
Bad die rolls extended this fight a good bit. Necromancer is now dead (he should have only had about 18 HP). Nobody dies unless Fighter continues to roll like s+&& against a DC 13 or so poison.
But you get the idea. If the Fighter had hit even once for about 2d6+6, he'd be long dead.
Yeah I think you got the CR right, maybe Rynjin forgot NPC's are calculated at CR = Level -1 (when they have PC classes and what is that, heroic stat array I guess?).
Anyway I honestly think you could keep him as is and still throw in 2 zombies or 2 vegepygmies and it not be too much, but... if a couple players are just learning, maybe drop him to level 2, have him cast the web off a scroll, and make it 3 minions?
Incidentally then those bracers of armor would be a little expensive for him at that level but not too over the top I guess. Definitely a nice drop for the party!
So after thinking it over, I've decided to make the boss a: Fungal Creature Human adept 2/warrior 1, with a scroll of web.
this change has allowed me to use armor to achieve the same AC instead of magic, and give him 2 yellow musk zombies to aid him in combat.
Now for the first 3 rounds of combat here's what I was thinking.
Round 1: Scroll of web
Round 2: Poison Spore Cloud
Round 3: Burning Hands on the web. That would be 2d4 fire damage, plus an addition 2d4 for those (if any) trapped within the web.
thoughts or should I tone it down some?
Yeah I miscalculated CR because I forgot PC WBL adds +1. My bad.
Maverick, that has the potential to kill a PC, but only if a lot of circumstances are met (him living to round 3 at all being the big one). So it seems fine.
Use tactics, too. Have the zombies stand in front of the boss, blocking charge lanes, have caltrops or marbles spread around to slow down attackers, and instead of having the zombies charge, have them use readied actions to attack as soon as someone comes into range.
It really depends on the CR3. I've run a lot of Paizo stuff (APs, modules, PFS scenarios), and the design of CR3 creatures is particularly inconsistent. I've seen the same party steamroll one CR3 with no trouble, and nearly get wiped out by another one. Rather than judging solely by CR, I recommend looking at the creature's attack bonus, average damage, and the nature of any special abilities.
If the creature is going to auto-hit (likely, given that it's CR3 against a 1st level party) and it does enough damage to drop a player in 2 rounds, that puts the party on a serious time clock; is it even possible for them to bring the creature down in two rounds? Similarly, if it has a fear aura, how likely are they to pass the save? You know your party better than we do.
It can be done, but since they are 1st level it is going to be a gamble. Generally speaking I would not advise it.
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I second what everyone else has said - CR3 is a particularly inconsistent challenge level. A wight or a shadow can ruin a poorly configured or poorly played group. Building a CR3 or CR4 encounter from batches of lesser creatures usually is more effective when dealing with a boss/final story-arc fight for a group of level 1 adventurers.
Take a look at the GM's Guide to Challenging Encounters thread and associated Google doc. Alexander Augunas breaks encounter design down into very clear elements.
In my personal experience, there's a lot of variation when it comes to how hard an encounter is. Often, a simple rule of thumb is this: is the minimum damage dealt by one round of combat enough to kill someone?
Let's look at a few CR 3 encounters:
Lion - has up to three attacks, dealing 1d8+5, 1d4+5 and 1d4+5 damage. Even rolling minimum damage, that's 18 points of damage in one round if all three attacks hit, enough to drop any level 1 except a raging barbarian with 18 base Con to the negatives, and outright kill some characters if they have a 0 or negative Con modifier. Worse still, maximum damage is 31, enough to outright kill even 'tank' characters.
Medium Fire Elemental - Has one attack, dealing 1d6+1 damage and an additional 1d6 burn damage. Minimum damage shouldn't be killing anyone, and maximum damage might not even take out a high Con 'tank' character. (Also, the burn damage doesn't happen immediately, potentially giving a chance to heal the character first.)
Dire Wolf - Also just one attack, dealing 1d8+6 damage. Rolling minimum damage is going to hurt, maximum damage will probably put a tank into the negatives, and so this is probably about the hardest CR 3 a group of all level 1s should face.
That said, I find that it REALLY helps if you try to never use monsters more powerful than CR +1, and if you want higher CRs, add class levels or more foes. Two CR 1 wolves add up to the same CR 3 encounter as a dire wolf, but are a far more reasonable encounter for a party of level 1 adventurers. If you really want a CR 3 encounter, go with a level 4 goblin or something similar. It keeps the number of attacks reasonable, and massively reduces the chance that a party member might drop from full to negative hp in one round of combat.
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I tend to favor Wraith's side, but this isn't the worst scenario. It's hard to create BBEG for level 1 parties because low level characters are much more dependent upon good dice rolls. We all have stories about a party damn near biting it to a few rats or something.
If this BBEG's tactic is to web and make use of an ability that does minimal CON damage, then throw in a Magic Missile or something similar the following rounds, that wouldn't be so bad. As long as you're not spamming Color Spray and/or Sleep at the party round after round, you should be fine.
Oddly enough, it's the martial BBEG you really have to worry about at low levels. One crit from a martial is likely enough to drop even the hardiest of first level characters. Hell, one solid shot might do it. Your raging orc barbarian tribe leader will likely make a fine red mist out of squishies with the faintest of hits.
Dice are fickle. So these types of encounters at low level can easily go quite quickly, one way or the other. As suggested, throw a few minions in there to mix it up a bit - low CR so the attack bonuses aren't great. They'll be fodder to prolong the fight, they might get in a lucky shot or two to make things dicey (with hopefully relatively low damage rolls), they can use some minimal tactics to stress the party. All the while, your necromancer can pew-pew with his scary-sounding (but ultimately not all that horrific) spore attack and web and grease and other non-damaging utility spells, with maybe a Magic Missile or a Acid Splash thrown in there to make things a little more tense. Ray of Enfeeblement maybe. If you want to use a Color Spray, for the love try to target only one or two PCs (and likely as the last gasp of the desperate once all the minions are squished). Same with Sleep. Those spells are a 1st level TPK waiting to happen.
Shadows and Wights aren't fair. They're majorly overpowered at low levels, likely rather underpowered at higher levels when they'd serve as mooks. Then again, if you get enough of them and the dice gods are angry with the PCs, even Shadows can put a serious hurting on relatively higher level PCs.
It is a cr 3 creature, because a lvl 3 wizard is a cr 2 encounter +1 for template. Keep in mind that a boss encounter is apl+3, so this encounter is just challenging. Give him a very high initiative though, going first when you are alone is key.
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Depends. In one Pathfinder Society scenario, our level 1 PCs fought a level 4 ranger who was on a rooftop. Well optimized, but with bad tactics regarding when my barbarian managed to climb the roof. Maybe if it was some insane debuffing monster with curses and mind-affecting stuff with a tactical advantage, maybe not.
Yes, a 'boss encounter' typically is supposed to be APL+3, but for 1st level characters, an actual CR 4 creature is a far more deadly threat than some parties are even capable of surviving, which is why it is far better to craft such an encounter by adding class levels to generate a CR 3 creature, and then giving them a CR 1 minion. Adding class levels tends to generate a far less powerful creature at lower levels, especially when you look at something like a gargoyle, which not only gets 4 attacks each round, but has DR 10/magic and can fly.
So after thinking it over, I've decided to make the boss a: Fungal Creature Human adept 2/warrior 1, with a scroll of web.
this change has allowed me to use armor to achieve the same AC instead of magic, and give him 2 yellow musk zombies to aid him in combat.
Now for the first 3 rounds of combat here's what I was thinking.
Round 1: Scroll of web
Round 2: Poison Spore Cloud
Round 3: Burning Hands on the web. That would be 2d4 fire damage, plus an addition 2d4 for those (if any) trapped within the web.thoughts or should I tone it down some?
I like it.
Well earlier he had a solo and we all told him it needed mooks so this is his new draft.
I think this CR 2 caster with 2 mooks is a more dynamic encounter then a CR 3 solo caster.
So after thinking it over, I've decided to make the boss a: Fungal Creature Human adept 2/warrior 1, with a scroll of web.
this change has allowed me to use armor to achieve the same AC instead of magic, and give him 2 yellow musk zombies to aid him in combat.
Now for the first 3 rounds of combat here's what I was thinking.
Round 1: Scroll of web
Round 2: Poison Spore Cloud
Round 3: Burning Hands on the web. That would be 2d4 fire damage, plus an addition 2d4 for those (if any) trapped within the web.thoughts or should I tone it down some?
The Web spell stopped being flammable in 3rd edition. And if you web the party, how are your zombies going to reach them without dealing with the web as well?
Try to temper your enthusiasm a bit, unless you're aiming for a TPK. First level characters do tend to miss fairly often, fail saves very often, and have limited resources to deal with same.
In my book it says that creatures in a flaming web takes 2d4 pehaps it stopped in 3rd but it seems to be in PF.
...
In my typical play experience, I routinely run into shadows (CR3) and wights (CR3) at level 1. And these are not boss encounters. Back to back, no rest in between. Typically lose about 1 in 10 characters as a result from surprise ambush scenarios where the bad guys go twice before the PCs are allowed to.
...
How do your party typically defeat shadows and wights at level 1. And how Many encounters do you have on a typical "figth shadows then wights" day?