How to boost to-hit with ray spells? (Sorcerer)


Advice


Hello all :)

Im making a (human) sorcerer that is kinda build around being a ray
caster, but im worried that my to-hit would be too low.

The build is for lvl 11.

Currently:
Bab +5
Dex +4 (16 + 2 (from belt))
Weapon Focus(Rays) +1
And if im lucky and the target is close I get +1 from PBS as well.
This totals up to: 10 or 11 (with PBS).

I am not too keen on doing any dips that halts my sorcerer progression.
So basically what I am looking for is items or feats / smart spell usage.
That can help me hit those guys!

Things that I have though about:
- Quickend True Strike
- Greater Hat of Disguise (into small char for +2 dex and to +1 size to hit)

Anything else?


If you have a good umd and a wand, or better a staff you could get divine favor on yourself, and if it is a staff you could easily quicken it. hat of disguise functions as disguise self not alter self, there is no bonus.


Hogeyhead wrote:
hat of disguise functions as disguise self not alter self, there is no bonus.

Fixed: Should have been a Greater Hat of Disguise.

Im not too familar with staffs (mostly since my gm prohibits crafting).
However, if it is a item from a book it can usually be found somehow :)


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That to-hit is fine. You will be targetting touch, which doesn't tend to increase as CR increases (it hovers around 10-15). A +10 is more than enough to hit these numbers.


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Greater Invisibility should make it pretty much an automatic hit.


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Yeah, those numbers should generally be more than fine, unless your campaign heavily focuses enemies with extremely high touch AC (in which case it seems better to change tactic) or your GM artificially increase touch AC to account for your high tendency to hit (in which case it will end up being a zero-sum game).

I'd recommend not investing more resources into your to-hit, instead investing resources in having alternatives to needing to hit.

Though I will say, many mages enjoy a good old permanent reduce person. For a very small amount of cash you get (easily dispellable, granted) bonuses of +1 Init, +2 to AC and +2 to ranged attack rolls. And +5 to fly and stealth and +1 to a bunch of other less relevant statistics, just to top it off.


Thanks :)
Then I won't invest anything more in this category unless something
really weird happens.

Side note:
Could a hat of greater disguise make me a small sized human (as if
under the reduce person spell) thus making it somewhat more
less susceptible to dispel magic.


ooki wrote:


Could a hat of greater disguise make me a small sized human (as if
under the reduce person spell) thus making it somewhat more
less susceptible to dispel magic.

Yes, and it would be more powerful in other ways too; if the GM allows the inner see guide, you can change into a Charau-Ka, which would give you all the benefits of Reduce Person, as well as darkvision, low-light vision, and scent. Without that option, there are several other that provide one of those that you could swap between depending on circumstances (and svirfneblin give both llv and dv).

Though I gotta say it's a bit weird that an item with only an illusion aura grant the benefit of a transmutation spell.


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Bracers of Falcon's Aim grants a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks (among other things). I think every ranged combatant should get a pair of these.

And the precise shot feat is probably necessary.


^^^^ if you want to target creatures fighting your allies, precise shot is highly recommended.

Scarab Sages

Note that the Greater Hat of Disguise is from a specific Module, so you might have to ask permission from your GM if it okay to get it.


Gisher wrote:

Bracers of Falcon's Aim grants a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks (among other things). I think every ranged combatant should get a pair of these.

And the precise shot feat is probably necessary.

Wow, I was so sure that those bracers only worked with bows and xbows.

Until I saw that, it only calls those out to be affected by the
crit range increase. Thanks!

Oh, din't notice that the greater version of the hat was from a module.
Guess I gotta ask mr.gm then :(


precise shot is a good one

greater invisibility is pretty good for this

glitterdust is good for wrecking golems when you take acid splash

summons provide a good means to deal damage while protecting yourself and fighting hard battles where your rays are resisted, i think summon monster 5 lets you summon a small firing squad of lantern archons

augment summoning is good as a backup option, a summon makes a good meatshield when you don't have a martial character to soak the hit and need a quick damage sponge that can also fight

standard tactic for long fights

greater invisibility, summon monster to fight for you, fire low level rays while your monster fights. another good item is wands of magic missile, CL5th ones are pretty good at interrupting enemy spells at 3d4+3 which is a much more reliable concentration penalty than 1d4+1

another good thing, eldritch heritage, arcane, get an improved familiar that can use wands alongside your rays. i really recommend a pixie, or if you can't get a pixie, an imp, a mephit, or a lantern archon

Scarab Sages

Cats Grace will give you a bonus to hit with all ranaged attacks, including rays.

If it's something you really need to make sure hits, invest in a wand of true strike.


Mage’s crossbow adds a bonus equal to the enchantment bonus to ranged touch attacks.

Grand Lodge

Become friends with a bard. Boosts both damage and to hit.

Arcane strike boosts the damage. Since ray is a weapon. Same language as taking focus or specialization feats.

Empowering and maximize can both help to make sure you get the most out of your dice.

Heroism will boost your to hit by +2.

Liberty's Edge

Extended Empowered Cat's Grace before combat would help, to improve damage you could take Point-Blank Shot and Deadly Aim which do work with Rays.

Scarab Sages

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Deadly Aim doesn't work on touch attacks, don't take it.

Grand Lodge

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Empowered has no effect on cats grace.


Also, doesn't stack with a belt.


But, just with the mask of greater disguise, you'll increase from your current +10 to +12, and with precise shot you will have a 85-95% hit chance on nearly all enemies. Against the ones where that isn't enough, spend your rounds buffing your allies (the best back-up focus for raymancers, IMO, since those who focus on rays tend to have worse DCs) or use the occacional short-time buff like Greater Heroism or Improved Invisibility.

Liberty's Edge

huh. XD

man it's so amusing to me to think back to 3.0 - 3.5 rule changes I forget that the feats don't work strictly the same in each book ^^;

Strange though that Deadly Aim doesn't work, Guess our Gunslinger can't do the damage she has been doing either since all her weapons do Touch Attack Effects.

Scarab Sages

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Firearms have a specific exception that allows deadly aim to work despite being a touch attack in the first range increment.

Grand Lodge

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Oh I forgot to mention good hope.

Its heroism on steroids but for a shorter period of time. Which this can be done via UMD.

But again a bard or evangelist cleric would be your best friend or leadership follower.

Grand Lodge

Deadly aim does work on a gunslinger....they have observed damage output if done right.

Liberty's Edge

Hmmm re-reading to see about the Rays with Weapon Specialization, it would require devoting 4 levels towards Fighter, but it seems that it does add +2 to the Damage of just the Selected Weapon Focus.

But then again I have seen alternate rules used in different books for the same feat. Changing it from 4 levels of Fighter and Weapon Focus, to Weapon Focus and +4 base attack bonus (which in my opinion made a lot more sense)

But rules wise looks like it would mean taking four levels of fighter which would also increase the BAB of the Sorcerer making it easier to hit with the rays as well.


graystone wrote:
Mage’s crossbow adds a bonus equal to the enchantment bonus to ranged touch attacks.

I should also mention that the bonus also gets added to damage and caster level to overcome spell resistance.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
graystone wrote:
Mage’s crossbow adds a bonus equal to the enchantment bonus to ranged touch attacks.
I should also mention that the bonus also gets added to damage and caster level to overcome spell resistance.

I'm looking for these rules on the crossbow, Where are they located?


Ranged tactics toolbox. If you're looking for online stats, I think d20pfsrd has them.

Grand Lodge

You can avoid the fighter levels via magus or eldritch knight.

Going eldritch knight has full baB which increases your to hit.

I think a crossblooded orc/draconic sorcerer 1/magus would net you some big damage.
each ray would hit pretty big.

Arcane strike + specialization +2/Die in damage a level 13 character is shooting a ray for 4d6+13 for 3 rays. Add in empower your looking (12d6+39) ×.5. Average of 94 damage. Thats a decent ray after you beef it up.

Liberty's Edge

Not finding any rules that say one can't do this, but Crossblooded Sorcerer with Dragon/Primal Elemental would be good for damage of specific element type. Weapon Focus, Precise Shot and Arcane Strike are good for sure for damage capacity mixed with that. Although one would have to pick a single element for spells damage unless you are taking Elemental Spell as well. Which at level 11 is certainly do-able.

If you pick Kobold as your race, instead of gaining bonus HP or Skill Points as a Sorcerer, you would gain bonus damage equal to your level when using a single Element damage spells (Although it might not be possible to do this)

So at level 11

Scorching Ray if your a fire type would be 4d6+22 Damage with an attack of +12 (+4 dex, +5 bab, +1 WF, +1 SZ, +1 Precise Shot) all within 30feet and have 3 rays

Scarab Sages

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You can't take both crossblooded and wildblooded, as they both modify bloodlines. However, you can take crossblooded dragon/orc, which gives the same damage bonus.

Liberty's Edge

Imbicatus wrote:
You can't take both crossblooded and wildblooded, as they both modify bloodlines. However, you can take crossblooded dragon/orc, which gives the same damage bonus.

Interesting, didn't see any reason one couldn't though as it changes a single bloodline, Crossblooded allows one too take two bloodlines, effectively combining them. So A wild Bloodline mixed with a normal one seems like it could work. After all I've seen many players combine Archetypes so long as they don't alter the same ability from the class.

But it would make sense indeed that they couldn't

Grand Lodge

It has been ruled that they both modify the bloodline, making them exclusive to each other.

Fighter->Eldritch Knight is gonna be your best ray shooter I think. Pick up Magical Knack to keep the CL up.


Michael Talley 759 wrote:


But then again I have seen alternate rules used in different books for the same feat. Changing it from 4 levels of Fighter and Weapon Focus, to Weapon Focus and +4 base attack bonus (which in my opinion made a lot more sense)

There is no such rule in any official book. Weapon Specialization is basically a fighter class feature (though certain other classes such as Cavalier can also gain access to it under certain circumstances).

It makes about as much sense as swapping the requirement of wizard levels to cast wizard spells to a requirement in spellcraft ranks.

Regardless, it isn't a _good_ feat for rays. The reason it's good for fighters is because fighters can unload a half-dozen attacks per round, so each +2 is notable. A caster will fire perhaps two rays per round (AFAIK it's been ruled that spells which produce several rays just get weapon spec on one of them).

Scarab Sages

Gaberlunzie wrote:
(AFAIK it's been ruled that spells which produce several rays just get weapon spec on one of them).

That is for sneak attack only. Weapon Specialization would apply on all rays fired from a spell.


Imbicatus wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:
(AFAIK it's been ruled that spells which produce several rays just get weapon spec on one of them).
That is for sneak attack only. Weapon Specialization would apply on all rays fired from a spell.

After researching a bit, it seems to be a gray area when it comes to intent, but from a pure RAW perspective you seem to be correct.

As far as I know, any bonus that is commonly used on spell damage (such as the Evoker bonus) states that it's only once per spell regardless of the number of attacks, while those that are not usually considered for spells don't state this. That, in combination with the sneak attack FAQ, makes me believe that the intent would be once per spell, but from a pure RAW perspective, it gets added.

Liberty's Edge

Gaberlunzie wrote:
Michael Talley 759 wrote:


But then again I have seen alternate rules used in different books for the same feat. Changing it from 4 levels of Fighter and Weapon Focus, to Weapon Focus and +4 base attack bonus (which in my opinion made a lot more sense)

There is no such rule in any official book. Weapon Specialization is basically a fighter class feature (though certain other classes such as Cavalier can also gain access to it under certain circumstances).

It makes about as much sense as swapping the requirement of wizard levels to cast wizard spells to a requirement in spellcraft ranks.

Regardless, it isn't a _good_ feat for rays. The reason it's good for fighters is because fighters can unload a half-dozen attacks per round, so each +2 is notable. A caster will fire perhaps two rays per round (AFAIK it's been ruled that spells which produce several rays just get weapon spec on one of them).

The only official book it was used in was a d20 book in combination with BESM at the time when creating The Slayers rpg.

Have to admit I like the concept more with the weapon specialization being done that way as it might more than just fighters could obtain a specialty in their chosen weapon. However in 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons It was called Ranged Spell Specialization Found on Page 82 in the Complete Arcane Book.

Complete Arcane Feat wrote:


RANGED SPELL SPECIALIZATION
You deal more damage with ranged touch attack spells.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (ranged spell), caster
level 4th.
Benefi t: Damage-dealing spells that require a ranged touch
attack roll gain a +2 bonus on the damage they deal. This extra
damage applies only to the fi rst successful attack of spells
that create multiple rays or missiles, or to the fi rst round of
damage for spells that deal damage over multiple rounds on
a single successful attack (such as Melf’s acid arrow). Because
you must be able to strike precisely, the extra damage applies
only to targets within 30 feet. Only spells that deal hit point
damage can be affected by this feat.


ooki wrote:

Hello all :)

Im making a (human) sorcerer that is kinda build around being a ray
caster, but im worried that my to-hit would be too low.

The build is for lvl 11.

Currently:
Bab +5
Dex +4 (16 + 2 (from belt))
Weapon Focus(Rays) +1
And if im lucky and the target is close I get +1 from PBS as well.
This totals up to: 10 or 11 (with PBS).

I am not too keen on doing any dips that halts my sorcerer progression.
So basically what I am looking for is items or feats / smart spell usage.
That can help me hit those guys!

Things that I have though about:
- Quickend True Strike
- Greater Hat of Disguise (into small char for +2 dex and to +1 size to hit)

Anything else?

Unless you have no melee partners, you'll be shooting into melee and/or through cover at least 75% of time. Assume you'll have -4 to -8 to hit.

Dump Weapon Focus in favor of Precise Shot: +1 does not make up for the -4 for shooting into melee. (I don't know why so many NPC ranged builds take Weapon Focus over Precise Shot.)

Getting Improved Precise Shot will be really hard, so you might consider Bullseye Shot to overcome cover bonuses.

Grand Lodge

Micheal when I said specialization I ment weapon specialization ray. Fighter feat not what feat you posted.


Michael Talley 759 wrote:


The only official book it was used in was a d20 book in combination with BESM at the time when creating The Slayers rpg.

With "official", I meant published by Paizo for the Pathfinder RPG. Other RPGs are a different thing :P

Quote:
Have to admit I like the concept more with the weapon specialization being done that way as it might more than just fighters could obtain a specialty in their chosen weapon.

Seeing as how access to WS/GWF/GWS is one of the few perks of being a fighter, I don't like to sell that out to every class. Honestly, giving it to Cavaliers etc was a bad idea. (Not that WS makes fighters a good class, of course, but it's one of the very few perks so yeah it should be theirs).

That's what I meant with it being better that way than based on BaB, because it's always just the martial classes that have their abilities stripped and given out for cheap to all the other classes; allowing anyone to take fighter-unique feats, while still not allowing access to, say, spell-granting feats for martial characters, means there's even less reason to ever even consider martial classes.

Complete Arcane Feat wrote:


RANGED SPELL SPECIALIZATION
You deal more damage with ranged touch attack spells.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (ranged spell), caster
level 4th.
Benefi t: Damage-dealing spells that require a ranged touch
attack roll gain a +2 bonus on the damage they deal. This extra
damage applies only to the fi rst successful attack of spells
that create multiple rays or missiles, or to the fi rst round of
damage for spells that deal damage over multiple rounds on
a single successful attack (such as Melf’s acid arrow). Because
you must be able to strike precisely, the extra damage applies
only to targets within 30
...

Doesn't seem overpowered or anything, I'd probably never take it, but if your GM is okay with importing 3rd party stuff then go wild and good luck :)

Liberty's Edge

Fruian wrote:

Micheal when I said specialization I ment weapon specialization ray. Fighter feat not what feat you posted.

Sorry didn't make myself too clear last post ^^; Had Missionaries over while posting.

The Feat I posted was an Official 3.5 book from wizards of the coast of which Pathfinders Conversion guide says is usable, this feat "Ranged Spell Specialization" Is from the page 82 in the Complete Arcane Book, created by Dungeons and Dragons for official use.
Which could also be used with Weapon Specialization I suppose as well, but originally I do believe it was intended for those that didn't want to mutli-class at the time.

The Rule for +4 BAB and Weapon Focus, for Weapon Specialization was what I found in Campaign Setting book as a feat The Slayers d20 which was a setting book between Guardians of Order/Tri-stat & Wizards of the coasts d20 games at the time.

The idea for the feat to be changed in that way worked well and I tend to use it as decent change for the system.


How do cavaliers get Weapon Specialization?

Liberty's Edge

JustABill wrote:
How do cavaliers get Weapon Specialization?

It was a statement about an alternate rule from a 3rd party book called "The Slayers d20" produced by Wizards of the Coast & Tri-start.

Instead of being a level 4 fighter, all you needed was a BAB +4 instead to get the feat Weapon Specialization.


JustABill wrote:
How do cavaliers get Weapon Specialization?

they probably gain it from an Archetype that comes with a huge sacrifice attached to it


Michael Talley 759 wrote:
JustABill wrote:
How do cavaliers get Weapon Specialization?

It was a statement about an alternate rule from a 3rd party book called "The Slayers d20" produced by Wizards of the Coast & Tri-start.

Instead of being a level 4 fighter, all you needed was a BAB +4 instead to get the feat Weapon Specialization.

Oh, no, sorry, I just misremembered completely. I remembered the Cavalier bonus feat class feature as allowing them to take fighter feats as a fighter 4 levels lower. I've no idea where I got that idea (perhaps the APG playtest?) but regardless, I was wrong. Sorry about that confusion.

I basically never refer to 3rd party products (of which wizards of the coast are one, when talking about pathfinder, even though 3.5 and PF are decently compatible).


Michael Talley 759 wrote:
JustABill wrote:
How do cavaliers get Weapon Specialization?

It was a statement about an alternate rule from a 3rd party book called "The Slayers d20" produced by Wizards of the Coast & Tri-start.

Instead of being a level 4 fighter, all you needed was a BAB +4 instead to get the feat Weapon Specialization.

Oh, no, sorry, I just misremembered completely. I remembered the Cavalier bonus feat class feature as allowing them to take fighter feats as a fighter 4 levels lower. I've no idea where I got that idea (perhaps the APG playtest?) but regardless, I was wrong. Sorry about that confusion.

I basically never refer to 3rd party products (of which wizards of the coast are one, when talking about pathfinder, even though 3.5 and PF are decently compatible). Basically the only 3pp we even use is the Psionics from Dreamscarred. That's even nearly the only non-core we use...

Liberty's Edge

Gaberlunzie wrote:
Michael Talley 759 wrote:
JustABill wrote:
How do cavaliers get Weapon Specialization?

It was a statement about an alternate rule from a 3rd party book called "The Slayers d20" produced by Wizards of the Coast & Tri-start.

Instead of being a level 4 fighter, all you needed was a BAB +4 instead to get the feat Weapon Specialization.

Oh, no, sorry, I just misremembered completely. I remembered the Cavalier bonus feat class feature as allowing them to take fighter feats as a fighter 4 levels lower. I've no idea where I got that idea (perhaps the APG playtest?) but regardless, I was wrong. Sorry about that confusion.

I basically never refer to 3rd party products (of which wizards of the coast are one, when talking about pathfinder, even though 3.5 and PF are decently compatible). Basically the only 3pp we even use is the Psionics from Dreamscarred. That's even nearly the only non-core we use...

Well that does make sense

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