What recommendations would you have for this group's growth, like feats and magic items?
So far, we have an Elf Wizard Evoker played by the veteran player in the group (Hi Int and Dex). Feat: Combat Casting
A Tiefling variant Barbarian (two handed sword eventually, Beast Totem rage tree) played by a rookie (hi Str Dex and Con). Feat: Scent (I allowed him to take it since his PC is based off an anime character named Inuyasha; he'll make a good tracker)
An aasimar variant Bard (Arcane Duelist) played by the most inexperienced player in the group, a real newbie. She's got both a shortbow and a longsword, but will focus on bows (Hi Str, Dex, Int, and Cha). Feat: Weapon Focus shortbow
An aasimar Cleric (Good, Restoration) played by a rookie (hi Str, Wis, Cha). Into melee. Feat: Lightning Reflexes
We've got all the skills covered, except Disguise, Appraise, Linguistics (although I preselected their languages already so they have everything I can think of that's used in Runelords), Escape Artist, the Crafts...
They all have fairly high stats, as they rolled for them with a minimum of 11 (I wanted them above average). This was meant to be a heroic game with heroic characters.
They will doubtless do fine, and most of the early chapters will probably be a cakewalk for them (heroic stats and all) unless the DM subtly increases the challenge of the adversaries (extra goblins, a few character levels here & there, etc).
Honestly, I would just let the players pick their leveling options on their own, even if they aren't the most ultra-opimized choices. They'll have more fun if they feel like they "own" their character's choices.
Well, I was thinking of possibly doubling the hp of the beginning monsters (so they have max hp) if they started taking the challenges a little too cavalierly. Goblins aren't exactly the deadly intimidating types, more like for comedy.
Also, beyond telling them to fix their class weaknesses (like taking Lightning Reflexes if you're a Cleric) I was planning on just letting them do whatever. I put down feat suggestions on their sheets, but nothing more.
I would suggest caution about increasing hit points of the goblins at least initially. Their armor classes are sneaky high for 1st level characters to hit. I'd play through the first couple encounters as is just to see how it goes and if the pc's paste the goblins, there's nothing wrong with the players feeling good about themselves, especially if newbies.
There are a lot of build methodologies out there but from my point of view, Lightning Reflexes is a sub-optimal choice for cleric, especially at 1st level. Simply put, it's a feat that can be duplicated by a dex enhancing magic item which might be found, made or purchased. I might suggest Selective Channeling - being able to heal at a distance without healing your enemies is going to be more valuable than a 10% improvement on the occasional reflex save.
Here's a small suggestion - find the average point-build cost of the four characters.
If they are the equivalence of a 25 point build, add +1 to every stat of all the monsters and other encounters.
If they are the equivalence of a 37 point build, add +2 to every stat of all the monsters, etc.
If they are the equivalence of a 52 point build, add +3 to every stat (as per above).
This will result in a subtle increase in armor class, skills, strength, and hit points of the monsters and other encounters. It isn't as overpowered as the Advanced Creature template (as in no +4 to armor class) and helps monsters stay in line with the PCs.
The thing is, most of these players are newbies at best, so I haven't minded the high stats. I figure they'll screw up quite a bit and need them. The Bard, who routinely forgets which dice to roll, has
Str 16
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 20
The Wizard, a veteran but absent minded at times, blew most of his die rolls.
Str 11
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 20
Wis 14
Cha 12
The Barbarian, this is his first time playing one, and very much a rookie
Str 20
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 9
And finally the Cleric, again a rookie.
Str 17
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 20
Cha 16
also people with rolled stats have less of a habit of using buff spells, i've found it all evens out:-)
I'm not familiar with the Tiefling variant that gives a bonus to Strength. That said... you are going to find a Barbarian with a 20 strength is going to treat most of the monsters early on as mulch. Especially when using a two-handed weapon. I speak from personal experience with a new player running a Barbarian who preferred two-handed weapons. I would end up significantly upgrading hit points of monsters just to compensate for the Barbarian player.
(Half orc Barbarian, interestingly enough with a high intelligence and the Campaign Trait of Thassilonian Scholar - basically a scholarly half-orc who was a bit embarrassed by his berserker tendencies - and had an orcish mother who fell in love with her human husband and lived in Sandpoint. The player ended up leaving the game, so the character is staying in Sandpoint now.)
It looks like the point-builds of your characters are 57, 45, 43, and 35. That said, a 20 Intelligence is nothing to sniff at for a wizard, especially paired with an 18 Dexterity; no doubt you'll find this player is hard to hit and will end up outdoing the barbarian for damage further down the road against most foes.
If I were to make a suggestion, when you find your players are starting to overcome foes far too easily for your comfort, adding +2 to every stat will give monsters a decent boost without being overpowered. Also note, the Bard is likely to boost the effectiveness of the group even further - and once he can do Bardic Song as a Swift action, he'll probably stop feeling useless. My own group has the cleric having taken one level of bard, and that bardic song boost (enhanced by an Imperious Sorceress ability to boost morale bonuses) has proven quite beneficial for the group.
Given what I went through, Xanesha will likely be the first legitimate threat they face. After that, the ogres will be the next big threat, as ogre hooks can easily kill even a character at full hit points. (Also don't forget that Ogre hook crits are x3, not x4 as sometimes shown.)
Good luck.
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I don't think you're going to have any problems with outclassing players anyplace. And the suggestion of bumping stats on the bad guys by 2 each is good, but only for the non goblin NPCs. Treat the goblins different. Give the goblins a little boost to HP but not as high as you had planned. Instead of doubling goblin hit points just make it a 50% increase. Neither bump is going to affect the barbarian's ability to mow through them with a two handed weapon, but doubling them will greatly affect other characters. Your cleric and bard are probably getting about a 15 to 20% increase in expected damage with those stats, so a 100% increase in goblin hp will seriously hurt. With 9 hp though, the goblins will become a threat again without being too dangerous. Non barbarian PCs will still have a chance to one hit kill goblins, but usually need two hits to take one out. That's pretty close to the expected when using the 15 point or 20 point builds of a typical AP.
You can be very fluid with that first fight by just adding in a few goblins as needed after a few rounds, since the initial fight is portrayed like a city wide invasion. That will let you get a handle on just how well your PCs can fight without letting them have a cakewalk or accidentally overwhelming them with too much action economy for the goblins.
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Personally, I wouldn't tinker around with the goblin's stats (or the skeletons or any other mook). Instead, I would simply always keep another wave in my pocket. They wipe the floor with the first four goblins, three or five more come around the corner. Two skeletons too easy for the group - why can't there be four?
The easiest way by far to keep your group challenged at lower levels is to simply throw another handful of cannon fodder at them. Its always worked great for me.
The Barbarian's Strength score is not a problem. He's going to be saving up all his gp for an adamantium greatsword, which is so expensive that he won't be able to buy it until at least 3rd level minimum. You have to understand, this PC is restricted in a sense by his build, which is to resemble Inuyasha from the anime series.
He's going to be fighting with whatever he can find for weapons until then, and using his Beast Totem claws (gained at 2nd) when raging.
So, I figure upping the hp of the goblins by half or just plain doubling will satisfy the Barb's needs for a fight, and if I have to I can just throw more goblins as Wiggz suggests. I really don't want to have to tinker too much with their stats, as that can get intensive. Now, if those two ideas prove inadequate, then I might start throwing the advanced template around liberally.
But to start out with, I intend to run Runelords as written, just to see how they'll handle it. Remember, these players do not know what they're doing in the least, except for the Wizard.
I would be very careful when you run Thistletop. It is very easy to trap the PCs inside the fortress so they feel like they have to kill everything in one go.
To our group, full of very experienced players, that place was a TPK waiting to happen. We refused to even try to enter the woods/brambles because we knew that an organised group of defenders could kill us all.
Inexperienced players are likely to just walk into it and be killed if you play the Druid as anything except an idiot.
We ended up finding the back door, past the giant crab. And nearly dying to the various nasties inside since Nualia ambushed us when we were weakened by Malfeshnikor.
My advice for this would be to put some sort of safe place near Thistletop, Shalelu or the sheriff can tell them about it, so they have somewhere to rest up after they get mauled.
The other events likely to be hard for them are dealing with the quasit and then the sawmill.
Everything else will be pretty easy, so add extra ghouls and other mooks.
In the past, when the players needed to hole up for a night, they would find a room in the dungeon with only one door, and set up a night watch. Then they'd rest.
Do you think this will work, Gilarius?
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In the past, when the players needed to hole up for a night, they would find a room in the dungeon with only one door, and set up a night watch. Then they'd rest.
Do you think this will work, Gilarius?
Yes, it's theoretically possible. It's what my first group did, and I went a bit soft on them. In Thistletop, there are a very few spots that they can hole up in, but realistically, if they do so, they probably should come out the back end exhausted (thus not able to recoup spells)—which is where I went soft.
One of my players found out my evil plan to beef up some of the monsters and protested. Apparently they want to be able to stomp all over my goblins.
Ain't gonna happen. The bosses are getting max hp. And I plan on adding some cheap muscle like extra cannon fodder throughout the first adventure at least.
Why did you modify the first book? Did you change the second (or higher) as well?
I had a party of 6 built with an array equal to a 27 point buy. Since the APs are designed for 4 players with a 15 point buy, I decided to toughen things up for them.
All of my modifications for book 1 boiled down to either extra mooks, max hp, or both. I'm at the end of book 1 (they just have Malfeshnekor to go).
Are you sure about that amount for point buy? This adventure path was first written a long time ago. For example, you won't find anything from the APG in it.
Me, I have 4 buff PC's with varying stat/point buy equivalences, almost all of which are played by noobs. For most, this is the first time they ever played their class, and they are still getting used to which dice to roll right now in Carrion Crown.
So, I want to know how much, if at all, I should pump up the NPC villains.
Also, do you have any recommendations as to feats and magic items that they should go for?
In the past, when the players needed to hole up for a night, they would find a room in the dungeon with only one door, and set up a night watch. Then they'd rest.
Do you think this will work, Gilarius?
If they have come in by the back door and not alerted the fortress to their presence, then this would work. If not, the remaining defenders should simply keep attacking and overwhelm them. It's an immersion and logic issue.
As for the other bosses and encounters, apart from the quasit and the lamia in the sawmill, they all need beefing up with extra minions, changed tactics, templates, different class levels and different gear.
As written, the ghouls, the half ogres, most of the ogres in Hook and the Assault on Sandpoint will be annihilated by the party very rapidly.
The haunts in Foxglove Manor are very frustrating and can TPK very easily unless the party has a paladin - in which case, they are useless since the paladin is immune to everything they can do.
I'd re - write the haunts so they aren't dependent on fear effects, but also aren't so fatal!
That sounds like a major overhaul of the adventure, and that's not why I bought it. I just wanted to "plug and play".
So, simple changes are greatly preferred. Like adding the advanced template or maxing out the hp (instead of using the average result), or just adding more cannon fodder.
For a plug and play version of Runelords, you probably need to restrict the party to 15 pt buy and no optimisation. Inexperienced players might do this for you, but the hardest parts are the ones already mentioned while the later parts are easier - which will coincide with the players getting better too.
Thistletop can be just awful if played right. The bush outside the bridge with the druid & bunch of regular goblins can be lethal if you keep in mind the medium sized characters take penalties. The goblin chief can do some proper damage with his cavalry tactics, especially if you allow him to climb walls with the gecko. ;)
Otherwise I suppose they will have easy times combat-wise.
I would wait until the end of glassworks before ramping up challenge. Newbies a familiar with their characters at that point.
I can poke my players into taking feats that shore up obvious weaknesses in their class, like Selective Channeling for Clerics, but that's as far as I am willing to go.
Their idea of tactical thinking is usually on the order of flanking opponents and maybe even buff/protective spells.
I'm encouraging the party Wizard to take item creation feats, since this would reduce their need for gold, and most NPC's won't be high enough level to craft the items the group would want.
I'm encouraging the party Wizard to take item creation feats, since this would reduce their need for gold, and most NPC's won't be high enough level to craft the items the group would want.
Unless you drastically change the timescale of the whole AP, there isn't enough time to craft anything worthwhile after about Level 10.
I played an item-crafting wizard, but only after the GM assured me that we would have time to craft in between certain stages. He boosted the time-dilation effect of the Runeforge specifically so that we got a month in there while only a few days passed in the outside world. And added more time before and after the Fortress of the Stone Giants.
Otherwise, I'd suggest giving Quink a couple of crafting feats and allow the party to commission items from him.
Actually, there's time enough to adventure AND craft magic items at the same time. All the crafter needs is a Ring of Sustenance. Suddenly the PC only needs sleep 2 hours a day, which means an extra 6 hours a day can be spent crafting.
take yer time and milk it, the campaign takes as long as you want it to
Actually, there's time enough to adventure AND craft magic items at the same time. All the crafter needs is a Ring of Sustenance. Suddenly the PC only needs sleep 2 hours a day, which means an extra 6 hours a day can be spent crafting.
I was using one of these too. There still isn't time at high levels - unless you tweak it.
Celestial Armour - very nice, costs 22,000gp. Without a valet familiar/other ways of speeding up crafting time, that's 11 days. Do that for each member of the party and that takes 44 days. That's appropriate for 10th level or so.
Now do the same for 15th level - at that point, the PCs know they have a time limit (even if the players get told by you that they can take a couple of months off with no repercussions, you're back into the 'breaking verisimilitude' I mentioned before) - and you're into the hundreds of days you want to spend crafting!
It's your game; run it how you wish. I'm merely making suggestions that might be useful for you to be aware of in advance of the relevant action.
As captain yesterday says, above, 'take your time'. But if you don't allow for it, then the crafter might be annoyed at not being able to use those feats.
Oh, I don't mind letting the Wizard practice crafting, that's why I will suggest the Ring of Sustenance to him.
Valet familiar? What's that?
Thistletop can be just awful if played right. The bush outside the bridge with the druid & bunch of regular goblins can be lethal if you keep in mind the medium sized characters take penalties. The goblin chief can do some proper damage with his cavalry tactics, especially if you allow him to climb walls with the gecko. ;)
Otherwise I suppose they will have easy times combat-wise.
I would wait until the end of glassworks before ramping up challenge. Newbies a familiar with their characters at that point.
We made some adjustments to the penalties the brambles incurred as they just seemed inappropriate.
Basically medium (or larger) creatures were considered flat-footed and suffered a -4 penalty to Reflex saves and attacks made with non-piercing weapons. That was more than enough of a disadvantage in my opinion, and more appropriate to boot... especially when you factor in things like cover in the cramped confines of the tunnels.
Oh, I don't mind letting the Wizard practice crafting, that's why I will suggest the Ring of Sustenance to him.
Valet familiar? What's that?
An archetype for a familiar. Basically, it makes the familiar count as having every item crafting feat its master has, along with the cooperative crafting feat: effectively doubling the crafting speed of the master.
My players retreated after the druid - I noted the druid and the chief were having a tiff (according to the book) and the two sides hadn't been talking regularly - I gave it 1d4 days before the chief was bored and sent someone to see what the druid was up to - so they got away with retreat/rest/come back.
That only worked due to the bridge and the fact that the two factions were very angry with each other - once they got into the fort they went downstairs first - and once they encountered the hounds the goblins up top came to investigate - this lead to a chase through the lower level resulting in one goblin getting away and then the entire fort (minus the throne room) attacking - the stuff on the very bottom level didn't come up - stuff there is either trapped in the room (crab) or immobile (shadows) in the case of Nualia I figured she was in a religious trance.
Once the goblins were done they went back uptop to search and found the throne room barricaded up - chopped their way in and took out the chief.
Without a rest they went down and fought Nualia - after that they rested - but anything left alive at that point wasn't wandering or curious :)