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Hi. I have been reading up on the messageboard's threads on Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and non-lethal damage.
Namely when using a Cord of Stubborn, an Invulnerable Rager's DR will work on the 1d6 non-lethal damage from the Cord. Since an Invulnerable Rager's DR works twice as good on non-lethal damage!
The thread even brought up a post by Sean K Reynolds on how damage from magic/spells that dead specific damage types like piercing, bludgeoning and slashing will be affected by DR.
So.... if an Invulnerable Rager's DR works on (all) non-lethal damage... does it means a Invulnerable Rager of lv 6 and above can NEVER DIE OF HUNGER OR THIRST?! :D
(Hunger and Thirst deals non-lethal damage.)
PS: Would be really nice to have a Paizo staff have a look at this and leave an answer. :)
I thought the nonlethal damage from the Cord of Stubbord Resolve didn't get affected by DR due to the nonlethal damage not coming from an attack.
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I thought the nonlethal damage from the Cord of Stubbord Resolve didn't get affected by DR due to the nonlethal damage not coming from an attack.
Ahhh! A logical look at the situation, but you see... there are some people who think otherwise... like here.
Eh, well I still stand by the attack theorem. Same way that fall damage doesn't hit DR. No attack roll, no DR.
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Swarms don't make attack rolls and yet DR works against them.
Falling damage is a bit wonkier... if I drop a rock on a DR critter, I have to make an attack roll, and it probably counts as an attack, causing DR to trigger. But if a random rock just happens to fall on the character because of avalanche risk, it's not an attack, and DR doesn't apply.
I think DR not applying to non-attack normal-damage injuries is a bit of an oversight - otherwise the most sensible way of killing werewolves is to repeatedly throw them into pits. Forget about silver.
The fluff of DR is the critter either having skin that can't be penetrated by normal means, or it healing super-fast. It strains credulity that this only works if the injury was intentional rather than accidental.
That said, DR preventing starvation isn't the intent either. DR should apply to (external) injuries, not deprivation.
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Swarm attacks are still attacks. They just do automatic damage.
So would something like Cord of Stubborn's damage (which is not an attack) be affected by DR?
As seen in some other threads on DR, there are some views that DR applies to all damage... which means even things like starvation...
A clear ruling would be very nice.
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I don't see precisely where it states that DR doesn't protect you from falling damage. It does state that it protects you from physical sources of damage which definitely includes weapons and natural attacks, mechanically includes spells that cause physical damage such as Chord of Shards, and fall damage (which is, arguably, physical in nature). DR explicitly does not apply to poison or disease damage and excessive thirst or starvation would arguably be non-physical sources of damage. So I'd say no, DR/- doesn't protect you from thirst or starvation damage any more than it protects you from poison damage.
Actually, the CRB entry on DR, states it works against attacks. It does not states anything about physical sources of damage, but instead states what kinds of attack sources ignores DR (Spells, spell-like abilities,energy attacks, poison...etc)
As for Invulnerable Rager's DR on starvation, it has to do with how Invulnerable Rager's DR is worded, in that the DR is doubled against nonlethal damage. Which many interpret as meaning it works against (all) nonlethal damage. Including, magical item effects like Cord of Stubborn and STARVATION(?)!
No! DR does not prevent the damage from hunger/thirst. there is no logic loop or serious question here. Common sense should tell you that there is a world of difference between starving/thirst and damage, even damage from falling. How on earth is your DR supposed to protect you from needing to hydrate?
I think you should look at it from a character's perspective. Even if starvation and/or dehydration don't kill you, you would still be in extreme discomfort and pain, followed by severely impaired motor and cognitive skills. Who wants to live with that?
I also agree with several of the above. Hunger and starvation are not from a physical source, and therefore the effects are NOT reduced by DR/-.
The Cords of Stubborn Resolve issue is very reminiscent of the Vicious Weapon issue from awhile back. I seem to remember the end result being the idea that effects from magic items are similar to spell effects, and therefore would bypass DR.
I think you should look at it from a character's perspective. Even if starvation and/or dehydration don't kill you, you would still be in extreme discomfort and pain, followed by severely impaired motor and cognitive skills. Who wants to live with that?
I also agree with several of the above. Hunger and starvation are not from a physical source, and therefore the effects are NOT reduced by DR/-.
The Cords of Stubborn Resolve issue is very reminiscent of the Vicious Weapon issue from awhile back. I seem to remember the end result being the idea that effects from magic items are similar to spell effects, and therefore would bypass DR.
Spell effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage are subject to DR now.
My understanding is that the Vicious property actually is subject to DR because it's not energy damage. Unless it's specifically energy damage, or another damage that bypasses DR (like bleed damage), then all damage dealt is subject to DR.
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I don't see precisely where it states that DR doesn't protect you from falling damage. It does state that it protects you from physical sources of damage which definitely includes weapons and natural attacks, mechanically includes spells that cause physical damage such as Chord of Shards, and fall damage (which is, arguably, physical in nature). DR explicitly does not apply to poison or disease damage and excessive thirst or starvation would arguably be non-physical sources of damage. So I'd say no, DR/- doesn't protect you from thirst or starvation damage any more than it protects you from poison damage.Actually, the CRB entry on DR, states it works against attacks. It does not states anything about physical sources of damage, but instead states what kinds of attack sources ignores DR (Spells, spell-like abilities,energy attacks, poison...etc)
As for Invulnerable Rager's DR on starvation, it has to do with how Invulnerable Rager's DR is worded, in that the DR is doubled against nonlethal damage. Which many interpret as meaning it works against (all) nonlethal damage. Including, magical item effects like Cord of Stubborn and STARVATION(?)!
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
Blows & weapons. Falling is a blow, starvation isn't.
I know, the reply from people that want to be invulnerable to thirst and starvation will be the usual:
"It is fluff."
To that reply there is a citation of SKR that is perfect:
"You're not stupid. Stop acting like you don't understand that the rules are written assuming the reader isn't stupid. Stop acting like you don't understand that the rules don't have the room to spell out every possible allowed combination and spell out every disallowed combination."
It is not about you Secane, you seem reasonable in your posts.
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I think you should look at it from a character's perspective. Even if starvation and/or dehydration don't kill you, you would still be in extreme discomfort and pain, followed by severely impaired motor and cognitive skills. Who wants to live with that?
I also agree with several of the above. Hunger and starvation are not from a physical source, and therefore the effects are NOT reduced by DR/-.
The Cords of Stubborn Resolve issue is very reminiscent of the Vicious Weapon issue from awhile back. I seem to remember the end result being the idea that effects from magic items are similar to spell effects, and therefore would bypass DR.
Spell effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage are subject to DR now.
My understanding is that the Vicious property actually is subject to DR because it's not energy damage. Unless it's specifically energy damage, or another damage that bypasses DR (like bleed damage), then all damage dealt is subject to DR.
I think it work in the reverse, it is Untyped damage, so a protection that work against typed kind of damage don't work.
I think it work in the reverse, it is Untyped damage, so a protection that work against typed kind of damage don't work.I think you should look at it from a character's perspective. Even if starvation and/or dehydration don't kill you, you would still be in extreme discomfort and pain, followed by severely impaired motor and cognitive skills. Who wants to live with that?
I also agree with several of the above. Hunger and starvation are not from a physical source, and therefore the effects are NOT reduced by DR/-.
The Cords of Stubborn Resolve issue is very reminiscent of the Vicious Weapon issue from awhile back. I seem to remember the end result being the idea that effects from magic items are similar to spell effects, and therefore would bypass DR.
Spell effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage are subject to DR now.
My understanding is that the Vicious property actually is subject to DR because it's not energy damage. Unless it's specifically energy damage, or another damage that bypasses DR (like bleed damage), then all damage dealt is subject to DR.
All damage is subject to DR unless it says otherwise. Energy damage and bleed damage are the only types of damage I know of that aren't subject to DR.
By the logic of 'untyped' damage, then damage from Weapon Specialization should probably bypass DR as it's untyped. An argument could be made that it is weapon damage, but it's still untyped. Same for Fighter Weapon Mastery.
I honestly think starvation/thirst and environmental damage (hot/cold climate) should bypass DR as that only makes sense. But Vicious absolutely should be subject to DR as it is not energy damage.
Weapon specialization and weapon training are typed. It is a bonus to weapon damage, and so assumes the type of that weapon (slashing/magic/good ect)
If our interpretation makes sense, why are you arguing against it?
All damage is subject to DR unless it says otherwise. Energy damage and bleed damage are the only types of damage I know of that aren't subject to DR.
By the logic of 'untyped' damage, then damage from Weapon Specialization should probably bypass DR as it's untyped. An argument could be made that it is weapon damage, but it's still untyped. Same for Fighter Weapon Mastery.
I honestly think starvation/thirst and environmental damage (hot/cold climate) should bypass DR as that only makes sense. But Vicious absolutely should be subject to DR as it is not energy damage.
Vicious is energy:
Vicious: When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. Only melee weapons can be vicious.
Moderate necromancy; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, enervation; Price +1 bonus.
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By the logic of 'untyped' damage, then damage from Weapon Specialization should probably bypass DR as it's untyped. An argument could be made that it is weapon damage, but it's still untyped. Same for Fighter Weapon Mastery.
The damage that is added at the a weapon base damage has the same type of the weapon damage. If you use a spear and deal some sneak attack damage it is piercing damage, if you use a axe it is slashing damage, if you use a scorching ray it is fire damage. Same thing for strength bonus to damage, weapon specialization, a weapon enhancement and so on.
If the damage is a separate rider like vicious or the fire damage from a flaming bonus you should look what the ability say.As Kwauss showed us, vicious is a kind of energy damage.
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Damage Reduction (DR): Creatures that are resistant to harm typically have damage reduction. This amount is subtracted from any damage dealt to them from a physical source. Most types of DR can be bypassed by certain types of weapons. This is denoted by a “/” followed by the type, such as “10/cold iron.” Some types of DR apply to all physical attacks. Such DR is denoted by the “—” symbol. See Special Abilities for more information.I'd argue that the damage you take from excessive vertical acceleration is damage dealt to them from a physical source. Damage from deprivation or converted exhaustion, on the other hand, wouldn't seem to qualify.
I would not see hunger or thirst as physical sources of damage. I am also not sure the cord of stubborn resolve counts as (non-magical) physical damage.
falling definitely is a physical (and usually non magical) source of damage.