Well obviously they hate point buy, because your rolling method makes them very powerful.
You could do an array. Give everyone say, 16 15 14 13 12 10 to allocate how they want.
or you roll the 4d6 6 times and everyone gets to use the same rolls.
Or just use point buy and tell them to suck it up, its one of the fairest ways.
I like arrays.
I prefer 16 15 14 14 8 8 so each character has more flaws. Rogues, Monks and Fighters get an 8 replaced for a 10 though.
Why do they hate point buy would be the first question that needs answering.
Personally, I hate rolled statistics. It gives too much of an advantage to the person who rolls well over those who don't roll well. About the only fair way I can see of doing it is rolling several and allowing people to pick from the same set of stat arrays. The SAD characters will all pick one and the MAD will probably pick a slightly different one depending on how widely spread they want their bonuses.
It really depends on the power level of the PCs you are looking for. All the various methods have their merits and drawbacks.
For a long term campaign, I think it is better to use 15 point buy so the player doesn't feel cheated by the rolls. If you are going to go hard on them, let them do 20 points.
For a one night'er, it can be fun to use something 3d6 to get variation in the characters.
Before using a point buy near-exclusively, our group used to do something like this:
- 5x 3d6
- 1x 4d6 (keep highest 3 dice only)
- Re-roll 1s
- Assign to whichever stats you like
If you are more inclined to go with rolling, but feel 4d6 is too powerful, then I would go with
- 6x 4d6, keep highest 3 dice only
- re-roll 1's
- assign to stats as desired
It is good common ground between 3d6 (which can be too low) and 4d6 (which can be way too high).
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My favorite as a gm is offering two arrays:
18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10
Or
16, 16, 16, 14, 13, 12
Remember, high stats disfavor casters, because saves end up higher, and in particular, high arrays disfavor SAD classes because they get no further benefit from extra high stats. It also helps diversify the group, since nobody has a dumped stat, unconventional classes can fill party roles. You can be a face with Charisma as your lowest stat and you'll just be 3 behind the charisma focused guy, rather than 6 like in a typical game with a 7 Charisma.
The game I am playing in tomorrow has the following array:
17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 13
Not as strong as my arrays, but it follows similar principles.
In the past, I have also created a 6x6 grid. I rolled 4d6 reroll 1s and drop lowest 36 times and filled in the grid in order as I rolled. Then, every character could choose from 14 randomly generated arrays: each column, each row, or either diagonal. Sure, the party just ended up choosing between the two that contained 18s, but it was still fun.
In the past, I have also created a 6x6 grid. I rolled 4d6 reroll 1s and drop lowest 36 times and filled in the grid in order as I rolled. Then, every character could choose from 14 randomly generated arrays: each column, each row, or either diagonal. Sure, the party just ended up choosing between the two that contained 18s, but it was still fun.
I had a GM that did this and insisted we only got to roll the array once.
After I rolled, they reconsidered and decided to allow me to try again. Something about there being nothing above a 14 and a few columns that were below 10. Yes, I know the odds of that are supposed to be low.
After the next few rolls they said that they would roll half of the array. On the second array one of my rolls did end up being the high in a column. It was also the character's lowest attribute.
In another campaign we had a standard for a minimum viable character. Character generation was 4d6, must have at least one 16 or two 15s. I forget exactly what the record was, but I know that I had to roll over a dozen times before getting a character that met the requirements.
Dice hate me, especially at character creation.
That is why I like point buy. It avoids the luck of the dice determining how successful a particular character will be all through the campaign.
In the past, I have also created a 6x6 grid. I rolled 4d6 reroll 1s and drop lowest 36 times and filled in the grid in order as I rolled. Then, every character could choose from 14 randomly generated arrays: each column, each row, or either diagonal. Sure, the party just ended up choosing between the two that contained 18s, but it was still fun.I had a GM that did this and insisted we only got to roll the array once.
To clarify, I, as the GM rolled the grid up and all the players chose arrays from the same grid. The point was to satisfy players that insisted pointbuy was boring and cookie cutter while simultaneously satisfying my need for fairness and equality.
If you are going to offer arrays, I would suggest offering 2 arrays.
One would be an array for SAD classes and one would be an array for MAD classes. Otherwise you are libel to get a group complaining either that they can't build a good barbarian or can't build a good monk.
The other thing you can do is a choice.
Roll 3d6 re-roll 1's and 2's
or
20 point buy
But they have to make the choice before they start rolling.
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What's wrong with 25-point buy? I've always found that to be roughly equivalent to someone who rolled well on 4d6 (drop lowest) array.
I'm not sure, but I don't think he meant drop lowest.
If you dont' drop the lowest, you could end up with a base 24 in a stat. It's no wonder the PCs are hesitant to give it up if that's the case!
They're practically cheating!
I'm starting a new IRL campaign on the weekend and i am in need of character creation advice. Normally i get them to roll 4D6 6 times and allocate the scores, but they always seem really powerful, but they hate point buy, any ideas?
You should try the Standard method of generating ability scores by rolling 4d6 and subtracting the lowest die. If You're not doing that already.
I am pretty sure it is a safe bet that if you say "4d6" when talking about stat generation, everyone will and should assume "drop lowest" unless you specify otherwise.
True, but it wouldn't be the first time I've heard of such method.
My old GM gave us 12+1d6, reroll 1 once. It gave us nice characters who were above average with even a dump stat getting a +1 (unless you rolled extra bad) Give it a try, the players will like it, and it is still fair (imo) while not making the party too overpowered like 30 point buy or 4d6 does.
Course, he also bumped up the difficulty of every fight. Player death was common enough that everyone had a back up ready to roll.
Funny that you say that, but on average dice rolls your point buy with this method is going to be above 50. So if you're aiming for something below 30ptbuy this is definitely NOT the way to do this. If you did 10+1d6, reroll 1 once you'll have around 25-28 average, but with the chance of still getting above 50ptbuy through sheer luck.
I recommend prebuilt arrays, or if you like rolling there's a cool system I saw once.
You start with 6 in every stat, then roll 6d6. Write down the result of each dice and then assign those to an ability score. Then, take the inverse of each dice roll you made (flip the dice, they should add up to 7) and you can put those bonuses in another stat.
Example: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6
First Roll: 1, 3, 6, 5, 4, 4
Add them: 7, 9, 12, 11, 10, 10
Inversed: 6, 4, 1, 2, 3, 3
Possible Array 1: 18, 14, 13, 13, 12, 8
Possible Array 2: 17, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10
I have analysed different methods for random ability score generation and I found that the Standard method has a point buy equivalency of about 20 points while the Classic 3d6 method is equivalent to about 3 points.
If you're looking for something in between might I suggest simply rerolling 1s with the Classic 3d6 method. This method is equivalent to about 16 points.
A more exotic method is to flip the Classic method on it's head and roll 6d3. This is called Azran's method and it is equivalent to about 15 points (with a nice tight distribution to boot).
(Hmmmmm...tight distribution, humana, humana, Yowza!)
Just a higher point buy? Work out the average number of points their last characters were, and give them a point buy equal to that.
Any system that is mutually agreeable to the players works fine.
Though I would think the one where the DM rolls an entire array and the players roll nothing is totally pointless. The whole goal of rolling for stats in the first place is the fun of holding the dice in your hands as if you were holding your character's destiny in your hands.
4d6, drop lowest and allocate was our standard system in DD3.5, and I ended up playing about a 10-point-buy fighter/rogue for five years, while the other lads had the equivalent of a 30 or more-point-buy character. That was kind of frustrating, but I sucked it up and still had fun. Funny thing is, that character is the only one who never died or got raised.
Switching over to PF 3 months ago, I finally convinced our group to do point buy: we did 25 points, max 17, min 10 before racials. It made for well-rounded characters with lots of moderately good scores and none completely through the roof (since the max was effectively 19 after racial mods). Yes, these PCs are very heroic, and yes, I as DM have to really beef up encounters.
Last session, 4 2nd-level PCs took on 2 trolls & 3 giant spiders and just barely won, with no casualties. Though the monsters didn't all come on stage at exactly the same moment, I was amazed they pulled through, with 3 of the 4 reaching negative hit points at various stages of the battle. But 25 point buys really are stronger than the 15-ers the official adventure paths were designed to accomodate.
Unless you have extremely high point buys/rolls the ability to build a character is more of an influence than the amount of points they have. If you want to control the scores, but the players want high scores then agree to a stat array or give out 2 or 3 stat arrays, and let each player choose which one he wants to use.
PS: If the problem is that you and the players are not even close on what is "ok" for a stats then you both may have to compromise. You can just say "these are you choices", but I would save that for a last resort.