What is the point of Dizzying Defense?

[Ravingdork]

Aside from the bonus increases, what is the point of the swashbuckler's Dizzying Defense class ability? You can already fight defensively AS PART OF an attack action or full attack action, so allowing you to do it as a swift action is actually WORSE, as you are now expending an additional action to use it.

[DesolateHarmony]

PRD wrote:

Dizzying Defense (Ex): At 15th level, while wielding a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon in one hand, the swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to take the fighting defensively action as a swift action instead of a standard action. When fighting defensively in this manner, the dodge bonus to AC gained from that action increases to +4, and the penalty to attack rolls is reduced to –2.

Sounds like the author/editor doesn't understand the underlying mechanic. Yes, fighting defensively is normally part of the attacking action (standard or full), and so is less of an action than a free action.

[LoneKnave]

Huh. I always just assumed it was Total Defense. But yeah, that doesn't make sense with the second half of the ability.

Maybe you can like... make an attack and enter fighting defensively as a swift?

Also, how the hell did that get past through playtesting?

[Java Man]

Could you take this action on a non-attack? Activate it while withdrawing or casting?

[Zhayne]

Java Man wrote:

Could you take this action on a non-attack? Activate it while withdrawing or casting?

Hmm. Seems possible, from my reading.

[Ravingdork]

I'm wondering there is any way for me to get the increased bonuses without my having to expend my swift action.

[Kaushal Avan Spellfire]

Activating Dizzying Defense on a cast seems rather narrow, unless you were using a racial spell-like ability or gained Dizzying Defense through the Arcane Deed Magus Arcana. It is possible to read Dizzying Defense as gaining the bonuses regardless of whether or not you attack, but it might also be possible they meant for you to compound a swift action with your other attack actions to benefit from the improved bonuses. Think of the Arcane Strike feat, which costs a swift action to activate but you only benefit if you make an attack or full attack. Could be the same thing here.

[mplindustries]

I think the whole point of it is spending a swift action for higher bonuses.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

This could be looked at as potentially gaining an extra attack as a swift action. Fighting Defensively is an attack that costs a standard action normally. You attack and take the penalties.
But by being able to do it as a swift action you can Swift attack then standard or even full attack after or before, all while taking the penalties and gaining the bonus AC.

[shroudb]

full attack first with no penalties, then as a swift switch on fighting defensivly, so the penalties only apply to your AoO?

[That Crazy Alchemist]

shroudb wrote:

full attack first with no penalties, then as a swift switch on fighting defensivly, so the penalties only apply to your AoO?

Aye, that's the way I'm seeing it. Would make sense, being a freakin' 15th level ability.

[PathlessBeth]

When you use it, you are allowed to shout
"Sleeves of Many Garments II: Electric Bugaloo!"

[Lemartes]

How does it work with 3 ranks in acrobatics?

[Throne]

Such a poorly written ability.
This one's going to be getting thread after thread after thread until we get some official clarity.

[Throne]

Did anyone ever figure this out?

[Poor Wandering One]

I was going to say it allows one to trade a panache point and a swift for an attack/full attack sequence but the ability references a 'fighting defensively action' which does not exist so FAQ is our only hope.

[shroudb]

(just to add that its really stupid that daring cavalier gets that ability like 5 lvls before actual swashbuckler)<-possible errata alongside the inevitable faq pls?

[DominusMegadeus]

Daring Cavalier being better at buckling swashes than an actual Swashbuckler has given me both great mirth and profound sadness.

[NikolaiJuno]

Throne wrote:

Such a poorly written ability.

This one's going to be getting thread after thread after thread until we get some official clarity.

The fighting defensively rule is worded very poorly as well, which is a large part of the confusion.

[Ravingdork]

NikolaiJuno wrote:

Throne wrote:

Such a poorly written ability.

This one's going to be getting thread after thread after thread until we get some official clarity.

The fighting defensively rule is worded very poorly as well, which is a large part of the confusion.

How so? It has NEVER caused any confusion in any games I've seen run.

[Throne]

Ravingdork wrote:

NikolaiJuno wrote:

Throne wrote:

Such a poorly written ability.

This one's going to be getting thread after thread after thread until we get some official clarity.

The fighting defensively rule is worded very poorly as well, which is a large part of the confusion.

How so? It has NEVER caused any confusion in any games I've seen run.

Ditto. Fighting defensively itself is pretty straight forward. Its interaction with this class ability... not so much.

[NikolaiJuno]

As written fighting defensively seems to be its own action, as apposed to how everyone seems to use it as simply a modifier to a normal attack action.
If it is an action of it's own it can not be used with things like Flurry of Blows, and Spell Combat, because those are also actions of there own as apposed to modifiers to a normal attack action.

[Throne]

First time I've ever seen it interpreted that way, always seemed pretty obviously supplementing another action to me and everyone I've played with.

[Kazaan]

Well, fight defensively is normally a standard action. So, with dizzying defense, you can fight defensively as a swift action (make a single attack and get a dodge bonus) with the listed increases over the standard bonus to fight defensively. As written, this leaves you able to take two attacks (swift + standard + move) with defensive bonus and still move, double move and one attack (swift + 2x move), or full-attack plus one extra attack (swift + full-round).

[Ravingdork]

Fighting defensively is not a standard action. You choose to fight defensively when taking the attack action or full attack action.

[shroudb]

Kazaan wrote:

Well, fight defensively is normally a standard action. So, with dizzying defense, you can fight defensively as a swift action (make a single attack and get a dodge bonus) with the listed increases over the standard bonus to fight defensively. As written, this leaves you able to take two attacks (swift + standard + move) with defensive bonus and still move, double move and one attack (swift + 2x move), or full-attack plus one extra attack (swift + full-round).

if you go by that interpetation, then fighting defensivly is ALSO a full round action.

what stops you from doing 2 full attack routines in one round this way?^^

but ofc neither of the abovce works:

Quote:

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action

You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn.

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action

You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

both are only actions that can be taken, AS PART of either the attack, or the full attck action. not seperate actions by themselves. You see, they don't grant any "attacks" they just modify the existing ones of the action that the fighting defensivly is taken with

[NikolaiJuno]

"what stops you from doing 2 full attack routines in one round this way?^^"

Dizzying Defense (Ex)
: At 15th level, while wielding a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon in one hand, the swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to take the fighting defensively action as a swift action instead of a standard action. When fighting defensively in this manner, the dodge bonus to AC gained from that action increases to +4, and the penalty to attack rolls is reduced to –2.

The fact this ability says instead of a standard action.

[Queen Moragan]

I think it means that AFTER you make an attack or some other standard action, then you can use a swift action to declare that you are now fighting defensively

[Throne]

That's the view closest to making sense that I've seen on it; you get your attacks without the penalty, then declare you're fighting defensively (if you haven't used your swift by then, which you probably have anyway), get the AC bonus, and just take the penalty on your AoOs (and Opportune Parry).

But since that's quite a twist from how the rules actually state fighting defensively works, we should still get some official word on it.

[Zindello]

Throne wrote:

That's the view closest to making sense that I've seen on it; you get your attacks without the penalty, then declare you're fighting defensively (if you haven't used your swift by then, which you probably have anyway), get the AC bonus, and just take the penalty on your AoOs (and Opportune Parry).

It's this.

Basically, swashbucklers get the flexibility to full round attack then use their swift action to gain the bonuses/penalties from fighting defensively til the start of your next turn.

Then get yourself a weapon with Answering on it and that -2 becomes negligible. ;)