Reach weapons, the good, the bad, and the powerful.

[Undone]

Reach weapons seem to me at least on this board and in general by people I meet to be highly contentious. Not because they are confusing rule's wise but because they frustrate some GM's and players.

The Good
-Reach weapons allow full martial classes a 2 handed option which isn't particularly gimmiky (lances) and through the use of combat reflexes potential to keep up with attacks per round.
-Reach weapons are reactive. You don't have to provoke but in actual practical games monsters often must provoke.

The Bad
-Reach weapons can feel clunky to both sides of the map, especially if the reach character get's adjacent to casters with armor spikes.
-Reach weapons are often disliked because of narrow corridors, although attacking at -4 is better than not attacking.

The Powerful
-Armor spikes eliminate any dead zone.
-Combat reflexes can scale up on agile weapons or even just with an ioun stone to be one feat with a potential 3 or 4 extra attacks.
-Enlarged they threaten basically the map.

If you have any interesting comments or stories about reach weapons feel free to share. In my actual practical PFS games I've about a third the time I've gotten as many AOO's as actual attacks and I don't think I've ever gotten less than 2 AOO's in an adventure... except library of the lion.

My players have taken them up and I've also been on the receiving end of a few longspears and such.

[Errant Mercenary]

I have to say that the Long Arm spell has to be burnt and taboo'd!
Not serious, but the spell is a little too good in certain situations. Enlarge came with some disadvantages.

[Undone]

Errant Mercenary wrote:

I have to say that the Long Arm spell has to be burnt and taboo'd!

Not serious, but the spell is a little too good in certain situations. Enlarge came with some disadvantages.

The same can be said about aberrant blood ragers.

[Weirdo]

Undone wrote:

-Combat reflexes can scale up on agile weapons or even just with an ioun stone to be one feat with a potential 3 or 4 extra attacks.

Could you elaborate? It looks like you're talking about combat reflexes working well with a Dex build, but the whip is the only finesse reach weapon and it's a bit of an odd duck with regards to how its reach works.

Errant Mercenary wrote:

I have to say that the Long Arm spell has to be burnt and taboo'd!

Not serious, but the spell is a little too good in certain situations. Enlarge came with some disadvantages.

Enlarge also gives you about +2 to damage, +2 CMD, +1 CMB, lets you threaten more squares (up to 20ft away from a 10ft base vs up to 15 feet away from a 5ft base), and may make you immune to special abilities with a max size (eg swallow whole).

There are disadvantages, but there are also greater advantages.

Also, I like not having to recalculate half my stats if I want increased reach.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Weirdo wrote:

Undone wrote:

-Combat reflexes can scale up on agile weapons or even just with an ioun stone to be one feat with a potential 3 or 4 extra attacks.

Could you elaborate? It looks like you're talking about combat reflexes working well with a Dex build, but the whip is the only finesse reach weapon and it's a bit of an odd duck with regards to how its reach works.

Well - you could get finesse on a polearm if you combot a 1 level dip into swashbuckler along with 3 levels in phalanx fighter. Heck - you don't even need Agile if it's a slashing polearm & you take slashing grace.

I've actually considered playing such a build. You'd get AOOs out the wazoo with combat reflexes (not as crazy as 3.5 AOOs could get), and you could use the shield for bashing instead of using armored spikes. (takes an extra feat - but more damage - and you can eventually take shield master)

[Undone]

Quote:

Could you elaborate? It looks like you're talking about combat reflexes working well with a Dex build, but the whip is the only finesse reach weapon and it's a bit of an odd duck with regards to how its reach works.

Assuming as little as a 15 point buy you can take a 16/14/12/12/10/7 stat buy which gives you 2 additional attacks and allows flatfooted attacks which is potentially 3 bonus hits with a dex ioun stone yielding a 5th.

While the builds do work with dex it's just as good str using the 14 in dex. 3 bonus attacks is equal to TWF, ITWF, GTWF only at higher to hit bonuses. Although they are less reliable.

[Errant Mercenary]

Undone wrote:

Errant Mercenary wrote:

I have to say that the Long Arm spell has to be burnt and taboo'd!

Not serious, but the spell is a little too good in certain situations. Enlarge came with some disadvantages.

The same can be said about aberrant blood ragers.

Combined, even more. I have been witness. It is not pretty.

[Westphalian_Musketeer]

Eh, reach builds grant martials battlefield control. It's nothing that I'd say is more potent than some 1st level conjuration, enchantment or illusion spells.

[Undone]

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

Eh, reach builds grant martials battlefield control. It's nothing that I'd say is more potent than some 1st level conjuration, enchantment or illusion spells.

What exactly about using a reach weapon automatically makes it less damage?

You get more attacks and don't need to BC anything. The entire point is to trigger more attacks which can be used for damage or CMB checks.

[Westphalian_Musketeer]

When did I say it dealt less damage? I just said it grants battlefield control. If an enemy wants to do something they have to either eat an attack or combat maneuver, or go around your character with potentially huge detours.

[Undone]

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

When did I say it dealt less damage? I just said it grants battlefield control. If an enemy wants to do something they have to either eat an attack or combat maneuver, or go around your character with potentially huge detours.

A fair point. I misunderstood.

[Weirdo]

Undone wrote:

Quote:

Could you elaborate? It looks like you're talking about combat reflexes working well with a Dex build, but the whip is the only finesse reach weapon and it's a bit of an odd duck with regards to how its reach works.

Assuming as little as a 15 point buy you can take a 16/14/12/12/10/7 stat buy which gives you 2 additional attacks and allows flatfooted attacks which is potentially 3 bonus hits with a dex ioun stone yielding a 5th.

While the builds do work with dex it's just as good str using the 14 in dex. 3 bonus attacks is equal to TWF, ITWF, GTWF only at higher to hit bonuses. Although they are less reliable.

I agree that's the best stat strategy with a reach weapon. I'm confused by the reference to agile weapons, which are used in a finesse build.

Undone wrote:

Combat reflexes can scale up on agile weapons or even just with an ioun stone to be one feat with a potential 3 or 4 extra attacks.

[lemeres]

Here is something- Lunge is better for reach weapons than regular weapons.

It might seem odd to advocate lunge- it only increases reach during your turn, and does nothing to expand your threatened area. But in fact, it is perfect for positioning enemies to make full use of reach.

Normally, with a polearm, you attack the enemy, and they are 10' away at the end of your turn. The enemy merely has to take a 5' step (which does not draw an AoO) and they can full attack.

In comparison, lunge gives you an extra 5' of reach, and you end your turn with the enemy 15' away. Many enemies have to move 10' to reach you- that means they draw an AoO and they most likely can't get a full attack (pounce is a thing... but it is not any more of a problem for you than anyone else really). So that means you are more likely to get an attack, and the enemies are more likely to lose attacks. Offense and defense combined.

Obviously this is not always 100% effective... but hey, being able to full attack anything in a 45' wide circle is a nice consolation prize.