Help me with understanding multiple reroll


Rules Questions


When I have to roll dices multiple times, but I need to keep the lower, the higher and/or I have to choose between results, which result do I have to keep? Is there a priority for rerolls?
Here's a scenario.
Dude is afflicted by

Misfortune:
The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

and it must save against a
Persistent:
Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.

fireball. He's under the effect of
Aura of perfection:
At 11th level, whenever an Iroran paladin or ally within 10 feet would reroll a die and take the second result even if it is lower (via the good fortune ability of the Luck domain, for example), he can roll an additional die as part of the reroll and use the higher of the two as the result of the reroll. This ability functions only while the Iroran paladin is conscious, and replaces aura of justice.
and has access to
Improved Lightning Reflexes:
Once per day, you may reroll a Reflex save. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse.

and
Lessons of Chaldira:
Your studies of Chaldira Zuzaristan’s exploits have given you a knack for avoiding trouble. Once per day before the result of a saving throw is known, you can reroll that saving throw. You must take the second result even if it is worse.

What happens?


AFAIK there's no hard rules for how multiple rerolls interact. If I am parsing the chain correctly, it should go as follows:

a) Dude rolls his save for the fireball, rolling twice and taking the worst result.

b) Dude rolls poorly and so decides to reroll using ILR. He still must roll two dice as per misfortune and take the lowest. He rolls an additional die and can use the higher of either this dice or the lowest of the two previous dice. You would not double the aura of perfection dice in this case if I am parsing the two abilities correctly. There may be table variation here.

c) Dude passes this time, but then must roll again due to the persistent effect of the spell. He must still roll two dice from misfortune

d) He gets a poor result again and decides to reroll using LoC. Same logic as ILR.

The one thing I can't remember is, if you are allowed to re-roll re-rolls in pathfinder. If you are not, you could not re-roll a failed result at step b) using LoC. You could still reroll at step D) as it is a separate saving throw.


It appears, by reading, that you could only use Aura of Perfection against a Misfortune reroll if your second roll is lower than your first roll. According to AoP it only functions when you must take the second roll regardless of the first, Misfortune forces you to take the lowest roll of the two.

So interestingly, he may have a chance to use AoP against the Misfortune or he may not depending on if his lower roll was the second roll since technically he is then forced to take that roll by the Misfortune. Whereas if his lowest roll was the first, he would be forced to take that one, which circumvents AoP.


Pizza Lord wrote:

It appears, by reading, that you could only use Aura of Perfection against a Misfortune reroll if your second roll is lower than your first roll. According to AoP it only functions when you must take the second roll regardless of the first, Misfortune forces you to take the lowest roll of the two.

So interestingly, he may have a chance to use AoP against the Misfortune or he may not depending on if his lower roll was the second roll since technically he is then forced to take that roll by the Misfortune. Whereas if his lowest roll was the first, he would be forced to take that one, which circumvents AoP.

Misfortune isn't a 're-roll', it is rolling two and taking the lowest. AoP only triggers when you re-roll a die, which you don't as part of a normal misfortune roll. The two don't normally interact at all.

The confusion comes from when you are re-rolling a misfortune roll.

Shadow Lodge

I think Blakmane is mostly correct, except step b, which has no good answer.

Re-rolling a Misfortune roll would still be affected by Misfortune. If you choose to re-roll your attack, the re-roll is still "making an attack roll" so you'd need to roll twice and take lower.

The question then is what happens to Aura of Perfection when you're rolling both 2 take lower and 2 take higher.

Blakmane wrote:
b) Dude rolls poorly and so decides to reroll using ILR. He still must roll two dice as per misfortune and take the lowest. He rolls an additional die and can use the higher of either this dice or the lowest of the two previous dice. You would not double the aura of perfection dice in this case if I am parsing the two abilities correctly. There may be table variation here.

Here's the thing. There are two possible orders of operations:

1. (take higher of 2 dice) then roll again and take lower
2. (take lower of 2 dice) then roll again and take higher

You suggest using order (2). This option is most favourable to the rolling character. Consider three possibilities: the final value is the lowest of the three, the highest, and the middle value.

If the final die is the lowest, 2 is more favourable to the roller since you don't have to take the final, lowest die.
If the final die is the middle value, both work out the same.
If the final die is the highest, 2 is also more favourable since you get to take the final, highest die.

I don't think there's any RAW indication of which order to use (and thus whether or not to favour the roller), so instead I would simply cancel them out: if you have reroll take lowest and reroll take highest, you roll normally. This is to the best of my knowledge definitely not RAW but I think it's more fair and less headaches.

Persistent is the "outer layer" of all this. Basically, whatever happens with the other abilities, if you succeed on the first gauntlet you have to repeat the entire thing (using LoC instead of ILR as Blakmane described).

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