Goblin Squad Member
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Someone mention in a thread somewhere that the defensive balm etc was near useless due to the short duration. I crafted some of them and did some experimentation, and I'm in agreement of that.
I dont expect T1 potions to be some kind of miracoulus defence, but of their I didn't see much (the UI dont't really tell that much what happens) and in general a round or two didn't really do that much. I tried to apply them in defence of magic when attacking wizards at distance but probably never of the right type to counter their magic or in close combat to get rid of debuffs or protect against them ...
In the latter case it interfered with my change of weapon and I have a distinct feeling that I was better served by just swing my weapon one time extra.
I don't think they should have any increased effect, but if Alchemists should bother to make anything besides the pure Hitpoints refiller (and Apothecary being more than Varnish dispensors) for the first month of EE I think the Duration should be increased, perhaps by multiply duration with the amount of pluses ...
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Duration should actually increase by 10% per plus (with an extra 10% at +3). Consumables work like Expendables. For T1 crafted consumables, +0 counts as matching 0 keywords, and each additional + counts as an additional keyword. So +3s are effectively matching 3 keywords.
(Currently, only stacking effects and timed effects are hooked into Effect Power scaling, so it won't yet affect healing from cure potions.)
Also note that if you're using +0 potions with armor keywords matched on yourself, you're losing 10% of the duration for every armor keyword you're matching.
In general, I'd love to hear some wide scale feedback on the usefulness of the shorter self buffs. The buffs are priced the way they are because, on paper, they should pretty significantly increase your damage output or survivability while they're active. So the longer I make them, the more likely it is that suddenly they'll tip and become so good they're practically required. But the math doesn't really account for the annoyance of frequent reactivation, so including that in the balance considerations is certainly possible based on player feedback.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It could be that I'm to fumble fingered and need more training on the combat UI, but I would certainly trade fewer keystrokes with slightly less potency of the buffs.
Nice to hear with the increased duration by pluses, with 10% I can see why I didn't see t on my +1 Bodybalm (a couple of per cent units perhaps would make me see the difference, hint, hint, nugde, nudge).
I guess that in EE there will be a much lower number of alternatives in fighting at the start and accumulation of options a biiiit slower, so more time to learn the spine the UI.
It is also quite possible I don't appreciate the effects enought yet, I have to reread the combat primer again.
And I really can't parse this sentence, I get a " type mismatched" error from it...
Also note that if you're using +0 potions with armor keywords matched on yourself, you're losing 10% of the duration for every armor keyword you're matching.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It could be that I'm to fumble fingered and need more training on the combat UI, but I would certainly trade fewer keystrokes with slightly less potency of the buffs.
I'm with Schedim. Maybe even leaving out the "slightly." Buffs that were less potent but more enduring would be more useful to me. As it stands, I'm doubtful I'll ever get an attack off while buffed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In general, I'd love to hear some wide scale feedback on the usefulness of the shorter self buffs. The buffs are priced the way they are because, on paper, they should pretty significantly increase your damage output or survivability while they're active. So the longer I make them, the more likely it is that suddenly they'll tip and become so good they're practically required. But the math doesn't really account for the annoyance of frequent reactivation, so including that in the balance considerations is certainly possible based on player feedback.
Not speaking to alchemy, but to orison buffs (like Guidance) and utilities (like Tumble): If I can apply these before entering a moderate fight I will, but I rarely reapply them during a fight. Some part of that is experience - I just haven't run enough fights where I've had these on my tool bars and needed to use them. I expect EE with more PvP and large escalation fights may change the calculation - we'll use whatever we have at hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really can't parse this sentence, I get a " type mismatched" error from it...
Also note that if you're using +0 potions with armor keywords matched on yourself, you're losing 10% of the duration for every armor keyword you're matching.
If I understand it correctly, this sentence means that if you have slotted an armor feat, and you've equipped a set of armor with keywords that match the feat (generally considered a Good Thing), then your buffs will wear off sooner than they would if you were fighting naked, or wearing a suit of armor that did not match the keywords of your armor feat (usually considered Bad Things).
Adding a beneficial thing (armor feat and armor suit with matching keywords) plus another beneficial thing (buffs) produces a negative thing (shorter duration for buffs). I hope it's an unintended side effect.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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@Schedim
Armor keyword matching is the way we track "level" and you gradually outlevel getting the normal effect from lower level buffs. If there was no degradation due to level, there'd be no reason to buy up your buffs, and you might even have lower level players follow you around just to provide buffs. Tracking based on activated armor keywords makes the system work the same as offensive effects, and keeps you from counting as "higher level" when you're wearing weaker gear than you can actually support (and thus functioning as "lower level").
@Häagen
Grenades work the same way. A higher plus grenade will do more base damage and scale up its timed and stacking debuffs.
Great thread Schedim!
I use one utility buff on my build: Resiliency. It only lasts a round but it adds a significant amount to my Physical Resistance and that can do a lot when I am about to get a really hard hit in PvP, have been hit with a Raze attack (lowers Phys Resis), or am opening up a PvE can of worms.
I assume since it is a Utility, its duration and/or potency will increase with Keyword Matching and Level similar to attacks. Otherwise I am not sure I would mess with Resiliency for the very reason Stephen opened with: It might tip the scales on it too quickly.
I've noticed that buffs from Spells increase in duration drastically between level 1 Spells and level 2 Spells (note, Spells not Cantrips or Orisons).
I don't use them because I don't have reason to at the moment, but the Mind Blank and Freedom tokens add stacks of 25 which wear away at a rate of 4 per round (for me with Bravery slotted), which is a nice duration in my book, even if it means they are also getting weaker with time. Of course, Bulwark is the better Utility option there.
Looking through the Alchemical items, some of those I would absolutely love to have in their current state. Apprentice's Ambrosia would be particularly nice against a certain heal-spamming Kabalite, especially at 3 rounds duration. But that is very niche.
Then I look at something like the Fortifying Powder and I see all these benefits, but only lasting 1 round each. I get the tradeoff is broad-spectrum versus narrow focus. But that strikes me as broad to the point of uselessness unless we should expect to see lots of Acid, Sonic and Negative thrown at us all at once. Apprentices Resistance is much better since it lasts 2 rounds and protects against much more common Energy types. And it is cheaper on power by 2.
I'm just going to itemize since I am basically doing that already:
Soothe Soap: 30 Mind Blank is nice, but Token of Mind Blanking is half the cost and only 5 fewer stacks. Not sure the 2 rounds of Acid Resist make up for that.
Speed Potion: very nice. This would also help chasing down a certain Heal-spamming dwarf.
Twitch Tonic: I'd might actually use that since it collapses Token of Freedom and Resiliency into one action and a cheaper stamina cost. Electrical resistance is just a minor bonus. Timed right in the heat of combat, the Shrug Off could also be huge additional boon. So this one is potent in my book.
Like spells, when we hit the Level 6 goods, durations increase significantly (double, in fact). Not a bad deal.
The tokens are free, cheap and fast so they are almost all fine in my book. Greater Token of Protection, for the cost, might give 2 rounds instead of 1 of Phys Resis, but it is actually fine since it would be used mainly by Fighters that already have high Phys Resis.
My biggest concern with consumables is not their duration, it is their power cost. They really are not cheap for what they do. Granted, they grant access to buffs a certain build might not have; but 18 power every couple of rounds or even every combat for a Fighter or Rogue is steep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the term 'Kaballer' personally.
Don't forget that Ambrosia costs 2 Azure crystals and Moonstones and Pearls aren't that common in my walks. Those are resources you could be putting in wands, staves and charge gems.
Any word when we'll need ammunition? The value of consumables will change then I'd think. Those overdraws and healing were free yesterday.
There are more Apothecary and Alchemist drops than any other crafting in the game and the majority of resources I see are specific to that type of crafting. The global economy is another balancing factor for the usefulness of any of these items.
So far I don't see any tokens for resistance to sonic, psychic or negative energy. Psychic doesn't really have any resist buff for anything, token, orison, cantrip, spell, maneuver, consumable, utility nothing. Just one Tier 2 potion that gives psychic attuned (+4 resist instead of +12).
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Consumables should have never cost Power. That cost is paid for by them being consumed. Fixed in next patch.
Next patch we're also experimenting with setting all Expendables (including Consumables) to cost 0 Stamina.
Effectively, the only cost to use potions and tokens is the time they take to activate and losing the item. The only cost to use your Expendables on your implement is Power (you'll recover Stamina for your Secondaries while you animate them).
I also went through and set all the Tokens to be 0.6 second activation (rather than the range of 05.-1.7 they used to be) and improved their level (to compensate for them always being +0). This had a net effect of powering up most of them, though the slower ones came down in power slightly (with the tradeoff that they're now less than half the time to activate).
Consumables should have never cost Power. That cost is paid for by them being consumed. Fixed in next patch.
Next patch we're also experimenting with setting all Expendables (including Consumables) to cost 0 Stamina.
Effectively, the only cost to use potions and tokens is the time they take to activate and losing the item. The only cost to use your Expendables on your implement is Power (you'll recover Stamina for your Secondaries while you animate them).
I also went through and set all the Tokens to be 0.6 second activation (rather than the range of 05.-1.7 they used to be) and improved their level (to compensate for them always being +0). This had a net effect of powering up most of them, though the slower ones came down in power slightly (with the tradeoff that they're now less than half the time to activate).
Awesome Stephen, thank you.
@Haagen, good points all around. About ammunition and charges especially. You wouldn't be able to spam heals like that if it costs you a charge every time, and I was certainly keeping up the pressure on you enough to force you to choose more meaningfully between healing and attacking. I wouldn't have had too much trouble keeping on your with the spear via its charge attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Consumables should have never cost Power. That cost is paid for by them being consumed. Fixed in next patch.
Next patch we're also experimenting with setting all Expendables (including Consumables) to cost 0 Stamina.
Effectively, the only cost to use potions and tokens is the time they take to activate and losing the item. The only cost to use your Expendables on your implement is Power (you'll recover Stamina for your Secondaries while you animate them).
I also went through and set all the Tokens to be 0.6 second activation (rather than the range of 05.-1.7 they used to be) and improved their level (to compensate for them always being +0). This had a net effect of powering up most of them, though the slower ones came down in power slightly (with the tradeoff that they're now less than half the time to activate).
Awesome! This is reallly a game changer for these. Have to cook some stuff to test after next patch.