I recently had an idea for a true neutral character who worships both Norgorber and Calistria, focusing particularly on both deities' favor for secrets and deception.
I want to know if which classes and archetypes best fit this thematically and mechanically. My thoughts thus far:
- Lore Oracle: divine-rooted, an oracle can act as a representative for deities whose interests he most closely adheres to. Lore mystery gives them access to knowledge checks, but with only diplomacy as a class skill, traits will need to fill in the gap.
- Bard: Face and textbook skills for days, but the vanilla version seems too "jolly" for the idea I have.
- Inquisitor: Similar to the bard, but more stern and austere. Either the regular version or infiltrator archetypes look to fit the build, but I'd definitely need to pick between the two for which one to make amazing. Also, I'd have to pick which deity they're getting their spells from.
- Investigator: The spiritualist has enough roots to do in the divine, but they seem to be very MAD to pull off everything needed.
Are there any possibilities or factors that I'm overlooking? Suggestions?
Just so you know, you can only benefit from the worship of one god.
To be clear, if you were looking to activate an item, or meet the prerequisites of a feat, you would only count as a worshiper of one of those gods.
So, you will want to pick a "primary", and one "secondary" god.
I am aware of that, hence why I pointed out how with the inquisitor I'd have to pick who I got powers from.
The worshipping two gods is flavor. If I picked a "primary" god, it'd depend on the final class chosen in all likelihood.
Hhhhmm... Maybe this will help me decide, which class generally demands the fewest feats for efficient melee combat?
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Hhhhmm... Maybe this will help me decide, which class generally demands the fewest feats for efficient melee combat?
Bard or Inquisitor can probably get by with Power Attack alone, to be honest. So can Oracle, in theory, though only if using a simple weapon, barring racial proficiencies.
So can Investigators, but Spiritualist is pretty MAD, as you note.
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- Slayer: "Half-monk, Half-hitman" (well that's not quite right, no monk what-so-ever, but it was a nice line), more of the agent that focuses on keeping secrets, not making them. Cleaner archetype could be good. Very much the assassin/spy.
- Rogue: The original spy class. And a few archetypes to help (Chameleon, Charlatan, Sanctified rogue, Spy)
There is the prestige class Master Spy as well.
What does this character plan to do with their secrets and ability to deceive?
Information broker, spy-for-hire, keep the church secrets?
Do they hide in plain sight, or shadows?
Those can all work, but what you plan to do with regard to fighting, skills, and magic also matter, and will help you make the best choice.
- Slayer: "Half-monk, Half-hitman" (well that's not quite right, no monk what-so-ever, but it was a nice line), more of the agent that focuses on keeping secrets, not making them. Cleaner archetype could be good. Very much the assassin/spy.
- Rogue: The original spy class. And a few archetypes to help (Chameleon, Charlatan, Sanctified rogue, Spy)There is the prestige class Master Spy as well.
What does this character plan to do with their secrets and ability to deceive?
Information broker, spy-for-hire, keep the church secrets?
Do they hide in plain sight, or shadows?
I'd prefer more of a "hide in plain sight" character. As for what they do, the intention is primarily to tear down the abilities of other regimes to keep secrets, so information brokering and spy-for-hire mostly.
Master Spy seems okay, and it seems to work best with the Investigator. As for the rogue, the class doesn't have quite the "I'm doing this for a reason outside of myself" motivation that I want for this character.
Those can all work, but what you plan to do with regard to fighting, skills, and magic also matter, and will help you make the best choice.
I'd prefer melee fighting, something that can incapacitate targets quickly (not necessarily lethally), so they can get away and then approach things from a different angle. As for magic, as long as they have something remotely spiritual within their talents, even if it's mostly fluff, I'd be happy.
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All you need is a good Bluff, Disguise, Perception and Sense Motive. Maybe the knowledge skills (particularly local) and Diplomacy.
A class that give bonuses and/or abilities that makes these better is the cherry on top.
Inquisitors, Investigators (infiltrator archetypes for both are good), Slayers, Rogues etc are all good. Even the Swashbuckler class has the archetype Daring Infiltrator that could work.
As for the rogue, the class doesn't have quite the "I'm doing this for a reason outside of myself" motivation that I want for this character.
Only if you read the traditional blurb on them. Motivation doesn't stay the same for each class.
A class is HOW you do something, not WHY.e.g.
if you stuck to the core classes, James Bond is a rogue (maybe multi-class to monk for hand-to-hand), and there is no way he does not have the motivation "I'm doing this for a reason outside of myself" (sorry for the double negative). He does it for England.
Most movie/book/tv hero spies (the good-guys/the hero/heroine of the show) would be rogues by class and their motivations are almost always bigger than themselves.
Same can be pretty much said for all classes.
Rogues, bards, and fighters are especially board in their ability to be almost any job, for any reason/motivation.
Sorry if this makes it harder to choose.
Maybe look for an ability you really like the sound of, or method of combat you prefer (sneak-attacks, judgements/bane, studied target etc).
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Only if you read the traditional blurb on them. Motivation doesn't stay the same for each class.
A class is HOW you do something, not WHY.
This is absolutely true.
e.g.
if you stuck to the core classes, James Bond is a rogue (maybe multi-class to monk for hand-to-hand), and there is no way he does not have the motivation "I'm doing this for a reason outside of myself" (sorry for the double negative). He does it for England.
Most movie/book/tv hero spies (the good-guys/the hero/heroine of the show) would be rogues by class and their motivations are almost always bigger than themselves.
This example, however, is poor. James Bond is very clearly a Slayer (for a host of mechanical reasons, mostly), with a trait to make Diplomacy a Class skill and maybe a level of Gunslinger.
A less combative fictional spy might be a better example of a Rogue with these kinds of motivations.
Same can be pretty much said for all classes.
Rogues, bards, and fighters are especially board in their ability to be almost any job, for any reason/motivation.Sorry if this makes it harder to choose.
Maybe look for an ability you really like the sound of, or method of combat you prefer (sneak-attacks, judgements/bane, studied target etc).
This however, remains excellent advice.
For an in-game example of a character not matching their class's stereotype, the most fun Bard I ever played was a Drow nobleman (with Perform Oratory and Acting) who wound up with his own empire in an Evil game. He was not 'jolly' in the least, nor a performer in the strictest sense, though he was affable, personable, and friendly (when not committing cannibalism, participating in genocide, or calmly watching his cousin/retainer torture people to death, of course). He was an ambitious, competent, nobleman who dabbled in magic and swordplay and was an excellent and inspiring leader.
That's...pretty far from a stereotypical Bard thematically, but the mechanics reflected my 'Evil Overlord done right' concept pretty much perfectly. He didn't even have any Archetypes.
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A (mindchemist vivisectionist) alchemist could do okay here. You have knowledge skills through the roof to represent knowledge of secrets, take clever wordplay (diplomacy) to use intelligence on gathering information. You can venerate norgorber in his aspects of Black Fingers and the Reaper of Reoutation. And you also have the combat abilities for seeking vengeance (spend a discovery on mutagen).
I've been looking things over, and I think I finally settled on a build: Dex-based Investigator, no archetypes. The Inspiration class skill coupled with a few talents that expend the skills that can be inspired without using up points, alongside the studied strike, combined with ungodly amounts of skill points means they'll be able to do just about anything social- or knowledge-based while still having things to boost them in combat, with extracts and studied strikes/combat.
Any advice on feats besides Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting?
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Empiricist has serious advantages for a skill focused Investigator. Combined with Student of Philosophy it completely eliminates the need for Charisma and Wisdom on skills by making them Int based, allowing one to be just a lot better at them with a bit of investment, and have better stats in, well, the other four stats.
And yeah, TWF is a bad option for an Investigator. Go either Dex-based and Fencing Grace + a buckler, or Str-based and use a two-handed weapon of some sort with Power Attack.
An investigator isn't proficient with shields, so I'd take a -1 Armor Check Penalty on attack rolls until I got it in Masterwork, correct? Regardless, having a shield slot to get AC benefits (especially once enchantments start becoming available)
As for Student of Philosophy and Empiricist, that actually takes a lot of weight off the MAD of the investigator. Will is one of their strong saves (and gets fortified by the Empiricist Archetype against illusions), so except heal checks and intimidation (two skills I'm not worried about at all) not much suffers.
So here's what I've got: 20 point buy human
STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 7
Traits: Student of Philosophy (INT to Bluff and Diplomacy), Forbidden Knowledge (Knowledge Religion to Knowledge Planes)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Toughness
Starting gear: Buckler, Rapier, Studded Leather Armor.
Only issue is carrying capacity until I can grab muleback cords and a masterwork backpack, and later a Handy Haversack.
Other feats will go into improving Rapier use or Skill Focus.
Most Skill points will go into: Perception, Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise and then a combination of Knowledge Nature/Religion/Local/Dungeoneering, Stealth, Escape Artist and Disable Device.
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Go Half-Elf or elf for +inspiration and/or +inspiration rolls(my suggestion is go half-elf and grab 6 elf fcb for +2 Inspiration, 12 Half-elf for +3 to inspiration rolls and 2 human fcb for extra extracts into your book), get an inspired weapon and grab inspired strike, combat inspiration, power attack, and either the vital strike or two weapon fighting line so you can make attacks that do either a bunch of base weapon damage+stength+power attack+3xinspiration roll. The problem with two weapon fighting and this is it eats your inspiration like candy. You can't do it infinite times, but the elf fcb will gives you more uses and the half-elf fcb will boost your to hit, damage, and skills(since you are taking the ones that expand your use of free inspiration)
Hmmm...
Weighing between human and half-elf now. I've got a nice extra feat with a human and up to 20 extra skill points as a human.
As an elf I'm picking up a Skill Focus feat instead of Toughness early on, which is okay, I'd get both eventually anyway.
Inspired strike is good, and combat inspiration is far enough away that I'll have the core Investigator Talents I want before it gets in the way.
Summarized: With the Human I'm get a benefit from toughness right away, boosting early survivability in melee. I'm also getting +1 skill point, which is driving up my ability to keep up in a lot of skills.
BUT
With the half-elf, I can get static bonuses every four levels to every skill I can freely use inspiration on, which is liable to be All Knowledge skills, spellcraft, Linguistics, Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, or Sleight of Hand checks.
So, with four levels of investment, I'm effectively getting a +1 boost to 15+ skills, as opposed to +1 to four skills.
I can also potentially boost my late-game melee potential thanks to more uses of inspired strikes and combat inspiration. Power Attack needs 13 Strength though, so I won't be going down that part of the road.
Either race works flavor wise, so...
Sold on the half-elf. Good catch.
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An investigator isn't proficient with shields, so I'd take a -1 Armor Check Penalty on attack rolls until I got it in Masterwork, correct? Regardless, having a shield slot to get AC benefits (especially once enchantments start becoming available)
Yeah, I was thinking more long-term. I'd skip it until you can get a masterwork one.
As for Student of Philosophy and Empiricist, that actually takes a lot of weight off the MAD of the investigator. Will is one of their strong saves (and gets fortified by the Empiricist Archetype against illusions), so except heal checks and intimidation (two skills I'm not worried about at all) not much suffers.
Yup. :) That's definitely one of my favorite things about how that works. Lets you make a very effective character with
So here's what I've got: 20 point buy human
STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 7
That's one point low, actually. You can have Str 11 or Wis 9. You could also go Str 13, Con 12 if you wanted to qualify for Power Attack.
Traits: Student of Philosophy (INT to Bluff and Diplomacy), Forbidden Knowledge (Knowledge Religion to Knowledge Planes)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Toughness
Works. As does the Half-Elf version you eventually settled on (which is indeed an excellent choice).
Starting gear: Buckler, Rapier, Studded Leather Armor.
As noted, I'd wait on Masterwork for a buckler. Still, that's 2nd level at the latest in all likelihood.
Only issue is carrying capacity until I can grab muleback cords and a masterwork backpack, and later a Handy Haversack.
Str 11 seems like it'd help with that.
Other feats will go into improving Rapier use or Skill Focus.
Don't forget Extra Investigator Talent. That thing is great.
Most Skill points will go into: Perception, Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise and then a combination of Knowledge Nature/Religion/Local/Dungeoneering, Stealth, Escape Artist and Disable Device.
Sounds solid to me.
By Jove, you're right about that array being a point short, and well, having 13 strength will let me haul that buckler as well without dipping into medium loads.
Hmm... This array should be worth a bit:
STR: 13
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 7
At level 4 I can put the Ability Score increase into Constitution and get some more health, and I qualify for Power Attack with no problems once I have a feat slot available.
I could also end up taking WIS down to 7, have CON at 14 from the get-go, and then bump up WIS with the ability score increase at level 4. Probably a safer bet to go with the higher health and constitution early on.
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By Jove, you're right about that array being a point short, and well, having 13 strength will let me haul that buckler as well without dipping into medium loads.
Hmm... This array should be worth a bit:
STR: 13
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 7At level 4 I can put the Ability Score increase into Constitution and get some more health, and I qualify for Power Attack with no problems once I have a feat slot available.
That sounds very solid to me, yeah.
I could also end up taking WIS down to 7, have CON at 14 from the get-go, and then bump up WIS with the ability score increase at level 4. Probably a safer bet to go with the higher health and constitution early on.
That does screw your Wis skills at 1st level before Empiricist kicks in even more, but yeah, that'd work.
I'm mildly more concerned with dying more than skills at first level :D, but you are right. The drawbacks are corrected before 4th level, which is satisfying to me.
And at least with power attack and studied combat together, if I'm ever forced to use something other than a rapier, I can grab some kind of decent alternative.