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And the rules allow a Wizard to have a Focus that can fit into a pouch. A tuning fork is larger than that.A tuning fork is as big or as small as it needs to be for its attuned note. The A440 tuning forks we used when I was in grade school music class were less than five inches long. That would fit in a spell component pouch. Any assumption of the size of the fork is strictly table variance.
Like any assumption on the pouch size.
Let's see what we have in the rulebooks:
- Spell Component Pouch Price 5 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
That is the weight of a full spell component pouch.
then:
- belt Pouch Price 1 gp; Weight 1/2 lb. A typical leather or cloth belt pouch has a leather cord to cinch it shut and another to tie it to your belt. It is large enough to hold 100-200 coins or two apples.
That is a empty pouch.
So all your spell component combined wight 1.5 lbs and aren't larger than 2 apples.
:D
Edit: notice that Eschew Materials don't cover Focuses at all. So it don't cover the fork needed for plane shift.
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So if I wanted to meet you at the front entrance of the Empire State Building in New York City, you would have no idea where to meet at? I think I can safely say that most people would be able to find that meeting place and consider that description "reliable".Geography is knowing where you are and how to get somewhere. It has nothing to do with popular places.
dentify a creature's ethnicity or accent Geography 10
Recognize regional terrain features Geography 15
Know location of nearest community or noteworthy site Geography 20Here are the examples for Geography. I feel this is far less knowing a place then knowledge locals Know popular locations. And these aren't just famous, they're what's popular in town. Could be knowing about a nice pub, a nice park, somewhere cool even if it's popular.
Really? without taking a cab/train/airplane but going there by themselves?
And in any instance that isn't a description.The requirement isn't knowing the location, is having a reliable description. In a world without photography, Internet and with a limited number of books.
The Empire State Building is a building in New York isn't a description.
The Empire State Building is 103 stories high, made of concrete, with a lot of windows is a description.
And all the spells that require a Divine Focus.the only thing a cleric needs a holy symbol for is channeling, which isn't a very potent ability
of which most of them are either highly situational or can be replaced by somebody who doesn't need the focus on the first place.
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Does anyone really feel like the sorcerer is underpowered?
Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.
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Does anyone really feel like the sorcerer is underpowered?
Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.
As the sorcerer exists? No.
As the sorcerer exists in comparison to say the oracle, witch, wizard or other primary casting class? Yes.
And even then maybe not underpowered as much as underdesigned.
Again I see the oracle being the divine equivalent to what the sorcerer should have been.
The sorcerer in my opinion really isn't that far off. The class just needs polished, and the class abilities (as well as bloodline spells) need to be touched up and brought up to snuff.
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The main thing I want to see done is for Wildblooded bloodlines be redefined as subdivisions of Bloodlines, the exact same way that Subdomains and Subschools work.
I always rule that in my games, because it works better and makes a lot more sense.
It also gives the Sorcerer a bit more "oomph" because you can take Wildblooded bloodlines and other Archetypes like Eldritch Scrapper together then; also makes Crossblooded Sorcerers significantly better.
Does anyone really feel like the sorcerer is underpowered?
Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.
As the sorcerer exists? No.
As the sorcerer exists in comparison to say the oracle, witch, wizard or other primary casting class? Yes.
And even then maybe not underpowered as much as underdesigned.
Again I see the oracle being the divine equivalent to what the sorcerer should have been.
The sorcerer in my opinion really isn't that far off. The class just needs polished, and the class abilities (as well as bloodline spells) need to be touched up and brought up to snuff.
The sorcerer has a lot more "oomph" in its spell list than the oracle. It doesn't need the help.
So, it's probably not necessary to buff sorcerers.
What if we slow spell progression of wizards by 1 level?
The sorcerer has a lot more "oomph" in its spell list than the oracle. It doesn't need the help.Does anyone really feel like the sorcerer is underpowered?
Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.
As the sorcerer exists? No.
As the sorcerer exists in comparison to say the oracle, witch, wizard or other primary casting class? Yes.
And even then maybe not underpowered as much as underdesigned.
Again I see the oracle being the divine equivalent to what the sorcerer should have been.
The sorcerer in my opinion really isn't that far off. The class just needs polished, and the class abilities (as well as bloodline spells) need to be touched up and brought up to snuff.
That is a matter of opinion. The oracle has more spells known, and their bonus spells from their mystery give a lot more than the bloodline spells give to the sorcerer. The oracle has much better /more /more use abilities (as I correctly pointed out before) than the sorcerer and the oracle pulls of off the cleric's spell list which isn't a weak list.
AND that supposedly 'weaker' list is in return for all those other baseline abilities they get -- the better BAB better hit dice and (because why the hell not?) better skill points.
So, it's probably not necessary to buff sorcerers.
What if we slow spell progression of wizards by 1 level?
That would just be dumb. Instead why don't we fix the sorcerer class features.
Since that is the area that sorcerers are simply ugly in.
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of which most of them are either highly situational or can be replaced by somebody who doesn't need the focus on the first place.And all the spells that require a Divine Focus.the only thing a cleric needs a holy symbol for is channeling, which isn't a very potent ability
Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
102 results for M/DF, 12 for F/DF. They aren't all spells, but they include: Hold Person, Clayraudience, Summon Monster, Water Breathing, the characteristics enhancing spells, tongues, magic weapon, greater, protection from evil, spell turning, wind wall, and magic circle against evil to cite some of the most know spells in that list.
They don't seem so "situational".
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The oracle has more spells known, and their bonus spells from their mystery give a lot more than the bloodline spells give to the sorcerer. The oracle has much better /more /more use abilities (as I correctly pointed out before) than the sorcerer and the oracle pulls of off the cleric's spell list which isn't a weak list.
AND that supposedly 'weaker' list is in return for all those other baseline abilities they get -- the better BAB better hit dice and (because why the hell not?) better skill points.
Has anyone noticed that Wizards get way fewer class features than Clerics? They don't get weapon proficiencies, they have terrible BAB, hit dice and fortitude saves, they don't get channel energy, they don't get spontaneous healing, they don't get domains... They basically get two things: arcane bond, and an arcane school, which unlike most class features forces the Wizard to take a major disadvantage, two forbidden schools. And they have other unique penalties too - they can't wear any armor, they need to pay money to learn spells, and they're crippled if they lose their component pouch or spellbook.
We need to petition Paizo to nerf all other classes to bring them down to the level of Wizards now!
Cleric's class features are garbage. Oh their nice to have, but Channel is bleh and Domains are few minor abilities ranging from weak to ok. No capstone. Really what keeps a Cleric Tier 1 is that it's a full caster and comparatively, I'd take the Wizard list over Cleric list any day. If you want to be a Divine full caster, I recommend the Shaman instead which trades in a good Fort save and some proficiencies for flexible spells lists, hexes, real class features, and spontaneous "domains".
Miracle makes a pretty good capstone. And you even get it early!
So, it's probably not necessary to buff sorcerers.
What if we slow spell progression of wizards by 1 level?
I really don't like slower spell progression, and it would not slow the wizard by all that much anyway.
So, it's probably not necessary to buff sorcerers.
What if we slow spell progression of wizards by 1 level?
I feel the faster spell progression is the biggest separator about the wizard. If you slowed it down, there's barely to no reason to take wizard instead of arcanist.
Granted I feel now that there's barely to no reason to take sorcerer instead of arcanist. What's a few extra spells a day?. Only a few archetypes for sorcerer really keep it worthwhile.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lots of people in this thread are bringing up the Oracle. The Oracle is supposed to be more powerful, all the base classes are. This is how Paizo makes money at the expense of the game, by putting out new material that makes the old material inferior.
See new rogue talents, feats, and 90% of archetypes.
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Not seeing the inferiority yet of power attack.
Everyone already knows that spontaneous casting on its own is not not going to compete with prepared casting unless the other caster gets something to make up the difference. I have never seen Paizo say the two were equal in a vacumn, and Paizo does not make new things with the intent to make old things obsolete. That is not why the APG classes are better than some of the core classes. This like many other things stayed the same because the one of the main drawing features was backwards compatibility with 3.5.
The wizard is not going to be nerfed. That ship has sailed. The sorcerer is not going to get any major upgrades, and Paizo has no intention to make all classes that are similar equal, so the sorcerer is not getting an upgrade.
As for the 20 level barbarian boss, melee characters stop being viable bosses at low level without minions to back them so that 20th level barbarian won't be taken out by a level 2 witch. If he does have minions then can just wake him up, and be immune for the next 24 hours. <-----So this is not a real problem.
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I am not saying the Sorcerer is underpowered. It is a very powerful class and I do not deny that. I am saying that the closest class to a Sorcerer is the Wizard, and either the Wizard should be made weaker, or the Sorcerer should be made more powerful for balance reasons.
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First off there needs to be a bit more of a choice between the bloodline powers. Give two or three choices of first...
First, I'm taking about the sorcerer with archetypes vs the wizard with archetypes. Sorcerer is much better. End. If anything, I think the wizard has a sheer lack of archetype options and seems to get worse in every book that releases archetypes to the other classes.
As for the second bit, Cross blooded sorcerer archetype does just this. You get two arcana powers, and access to two choices of bloodlines at each level. In terms of drawbacks, this archetype has very few, especially if wild-blooded alternate bloodlines are added to the choices.
For example, sorcerer could take arcane and sylvan (wildblooded) bloodlines. At level 1, this would give you a Animal Companion and a Familiar. You would need to sacrifice the 1st level ability, but you can do that. For pets, you could take a ram and goat and have two melee strikers to protect your sorcerer.
There are lots of other combinations. A good one is to go with a charm specialist and take the undead, Groveborn (wildblooded), Impossible, or another that allows alternate targets for mind-affecting abilities (I think there's one for monstrous humanoids and animals). Some fun options there.
As for drawbacks, you lose 1 spell known per level of casting, and lose your 1st class bonus to will (-2 will). Annoying losses, but you don't lose any castings of the spells.
EDIT: The one archetype I keep waiting for is a sorcerer archetype where he only has a single spell known, but it's a spell mastery class that allows additional bonuses and potential for that one spell. Sort of like that single weapon master fighter archetype.
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Does anyone really feel like the sorcerer is underpowered?
Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.
I don't think the sorcerer is underpowered, or even has any "problems".
Frankly, for most GMs' games, you don't need to go hog wild with optimization. A modest amount of optimization is fine, and in that case, wizards and sorcerers are still pretty even. Does it matter that wizards are the better spellcaster in the long run? This thread smacks of butthurt sorcerer.
I'd rather listen to the boohoos about fighters and rogues.
Nothing prevents you from having both a animal companion and a familiar, RAW.
It is the short run that they are better. It is the odd levels before 17.
Calling people names instead of debating the point is kinda childish don't you think?
There was no name calling, I was simply pointing out that it seems more like complaining to complain, than complaining about 'balance'.
Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.I never disputed this. I am simply trying to balance the two classes.
This wasn't a point that I made. But it still stands. Oh no, the sorcerer isn't equal to the wizard, so it must be the worst class evar!!!!!!1111oneoneoneone....
Histrionics aside, the point is that just because sorcerers don't get the higher level spells at the same level as wizards do doesn't mean there's an imbalance in the classes as a whole.
This thread isn't about optimization. The complaint is having to wait another level to get the cool stuff without any benefit other then flavor.
I understand that, and I am saying that the one level isn't a huge chasm that requires crossing. And you seem to ignore the fact that the sorcerer catches up IN SPADES on the alternating levels, ending up with double to 2/3rds the number of castable spells a day as a wizard. This isn't as big as you make it out to be.
That is bull. Show me sorcerer and a wizard at level 3 that are even, or one at level 5. Wizard will significantly outshine the Sorcerer. Even at even numbers where the Sorcerer has only one high level spell, the wizard will likely do better.
Pity the poor wizard on the even levels then? For the wizard will do better on odd levels and the sorcerer will do better on the even ones.
Nothing prevents you from having both a animal companion and a familiar, RAW.I believe the only rule even remotely related to this is that your animal companion can't be a familiar, and vice versa.
Don't tell that to a shaman of nature. I think there might be one or two others that can do it too. But yeah normally not possible.
Don't tell that to a shaman of nature. I think there might be one or two others that can do it too. But yeah normally not possible.Nothing prevents you from having both a animal companion and a familiar, RAW.I believe the only rule even remotely related to this is that your animal companion can't be a familiar, and vice versa.
Dip into Paladin so you can have riding, companion and familiar pets? XD
I'll note that the wizard getting spells at all odd levels is a 3E thing. in 1 and 2e, spell levels 1-5 were acquired early, but you got 6th at 12, etc, and 9th level spells at 18.
If you want to balance a sorc, just do it that way...in the early levels on odds, late levels on evens.
Sorcs specialize in spells better then wizards do, especially because they have more spell slots. The flexibility of being able to cast a useful spell over and over keeps getting ignored by the wizard set. Sometimes it takes more then one spell to turn an encounter around, and sorcs are masters of the multiple spell.
It must also be pointed out that sorcs can take a feat to memorize spells, which means making magic items isn't all that hard. There's also a ring which allows them to add a Spell known from reading a spellbook or scroll, or even seeing the spell cast, which obviates much of the problem with Spells Known. Indeed, sorcs in PF can now prepare for a battle with a special spell or three just like wizards can!..which is payback for spell specialization.
It should also be noted that the sorc bloodline benefits are extremely good, and generally not equaled by wizard school specializations...especially when dealing with damage spells.
It should also be noted that Sorcs can get their bloodline spells a level earlier then normal simply by using the feat Extra Spell Known. Simply take it at level 1, and grab your bloodline spell. At level 3, you automatically get the bloodline spell, swap in the next bloodline spell you want to learn. Rinse and repeat. At level 18, just grab an extra 9th level Spell Known.
That's also probably a nice way for a DM to give you a spell a level early. Grant the bloodline spell at the odd levels instead of the even, and at least you'll have something in those slots, if not wide open.
===Aelryinth
Riding actually doesn't help as it's still an animal companion.
As to the spells per level:
The sorcerer has casting endurance advantage at first and second level then loses it at third level. He regains it at fourth and then stays neutral or ahead but only through spells low enough level to be generally ignored.
On the Odd levels the Specialist is effectively Neutral casting wise with the sorcerer. It's only on spells 3 spell levels behind he's not even on and total spell levels he is ahead.
On Even levels the Specialist has 1 less spell of the second highest spell level and 2 less spells of the third highest spell level. However he does have more versatility (perhaps perversely) since he can actually change what his highest level spells are.
A "Sin Specialist" as it is known on the pfsrd (Thassilonian Specialist for the rest of us) will never be behind and on the odd levels will be ahead by one spell of his highest level to boot.
This is derived from starting the casters at the same casting stat (20 in this case) putting all the level boosts into the casting stat. Item boosts start at level 5 increase to +4 at level 9 and hit +6 at level 11. Inherent bonuses start at level 13 and then go up one per level until 17. I used the wealth by level tables to factor when to suggest when each boost could be achieved while leaving 3/5 of the caster's wealth alone in general (level 5 is an odd ball as is level 14 in this accounting).
There is at least a 4 point spread that will leave these totals intact in a downwards direction. Increasing the stats two levels earlier will need the wizard an extra spell for his highest level casting on the odd levels.
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Honestly it is really not that much of a difference at most tables. The skill level of the player will have more impact than which of the two he chose.
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Ugly as sin chart for the above.
My EYES!
Ugly as sin chart for the above.My EYES!
Did I mention the chart is ugly as sin? I might not have the best color coordination in the world...
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As to the spells per level:
The sorcerer has casting endurance advantage at first and second level then loses it at third level. He regains it at fourth and then stays neutral or ahead but only through spells low enough level to be generally ignored.
On the Odd levels the Specialist is effectively Neutral casting wise with the sorcerer. It's only on spells 3 spell levels behind he's not even on and total spell levels he is ahead.
On Even levels the Specialist has 1 less spell of the second highest spell level and 2 less spells of the third highest spell level. However he does have more versatility (perhaps perversely) since he can actually change what his highest level spells are.
A "Sin Specialist" as it is known on the pfsrd (Thassilonian Specialist for the rest of us) will never be behind and on the odd levels will be ahead by one spell of his highest level to boot.
This is derived from starting the casters at the same casting stat (20 in this case) putting all the level boosts into the casting stat. Item boosts start at level 5 increase to +4 at level 9 and hit +6 at level 11. Inherent bonuses start at level 13 and then go up one per level until 17. I used the wealth by level tables to factor when to suggest when each boost could be achieved while leaving 3/5 of the caster's wealth alone in general (level 5 is an odd ball as is level 14 in this accounting).
There is at least a 4 point spread that will leave these totals intact in a downwards direction. Increasing the stats two levels earlier will need the wizard an extra spell for his highest level casting on the odd levels.
Have you considered that spell of the opposite schools cost 2 spell slots and that the extra spell can be only of your chosen school?
"But the specialist get a extra slot" is reasonably balanced by those limits.
Removing them cost feats.
The sin specialist is forever barred from 2 specific schools of magic and can't recover them in any way.
Irrelevant (for specialization) or even (when compared to sin specialist) when compared to a limited list of spells known for a sorcerer. If the sorcerer can manage without having access to the entirety of the list a wizard can easily manage the same.
Especially considering that a specialist can easily throw away enchantment as one of his schools. Sin specialist hurts more I fully agree, but it's still not a horrible position to be in.
If sorcerers are whining this much, I wonder how much the fighters, rogues, and monks are whining?
Irrelevant (for specialization) or even (when compared to sin specialist) when compared to a limited list of spells known for a sorcerer. If the sorcerer can manage without having access to the entirety of the list a wizard can easily manage the same.
Especially considering that a specialist can easily throw away enchantment as one of his schools. Sin specialist hurts more I fully agree, but it's still not a horrible position to be in.
Did someone say the wizard could not manage?
I still think it would be cool if they gained there bloodline spells a couple levels earlier. For example a 1st level draconic bloodline sorcerer would get mage armor and at 3rd level would gain resist energy 1/day, at 5th level he would gain fly 1/day, etc..
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Never understood this argument. In my opinion the Sorcerer is vastly superior to a Wizard. Spontaneous casting coupled with more spells per day is way too good to pass up for a broader spell selection. Most sorcerers, especially humans, can cover all the spells worth casting anyways. Plus who wants the stress of wondering if you prepared the "right" spells...
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Never understood this argument. In my opinion the Sorcerer is vastly superior to a Wizard. Spontaneous casting coupled with more spells per day is way too good to pass up for a broader spell selection. Most sorcerers, especially humans, can cover all the spells worth casting anyways. Plus who wants the stress of wondering if you prepared the "right" spells...
It isn't more spells per day. This is false. On odd levels it's the same number of spells and they are a higher level. There are wizard options (Thessalonian specialist) that gives the same number if spells at every level and the wizard gets more spells than the sorcerer on off levels.
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Irrelevant (for specialization) or even (when compared to sin specialist) when compared to a limited list of spells known for a sorcerer. If the sorcerer can manage without having access to the entirety of the list a wizard can easily manage the same.
Especially considering that a specialist can easily throw away enchantment as one of his schools. Sin specialist hurts more I fully agree, but it's still not a horrible position to be in.
You have completely missed my point.
You are arguing that the specialist wizard at the even levels has almost the same number of spells of a sorcerer, I am saying that is is only partially true and that it has a cost. Taking even 1 opposite school spell mean that you are 1 spell behind for that level of spells.And the sorcerer has the whole wizard spell list from which he can pick and choose what spells he know, so he hasn't a limited spell list, he has a limited list of spell know, a list that between preferred class bonus, feats and magic items can be expanded almost as much as that of a wizard.
Only if you take a spell from that school.
Oh, the sorcerer has the "whole wizard list?" Really? So your sorcerer will have a different spell for his top level slot on the even levels every day? Really?
Also if you can say having only 1~2 spells you can actually of your highest level is not logically equivalent to having all the spells on your list except a certain school, and even then being able to use them in a pinch play.
Never understood this argument. In my opinion the Sorcerer is vastly superior to a Wizard. Spontaneous casting coupled with more spells per day is way too good to pass up for a broader spell selection. Most sorcerers, especially humans, can cover all the spells worth casting anyways. Plus who wants the stress of wondering if you prepared the "right" spells...
Oh yes. Because I love nothing more than only have one spell of my highest spell level to cast.
Hey I wonder why they changed the oracle to get their bonus spells when they gain the new spell levels?