Erik Mona and Jason Bulhman,
I'm starting a thread addressing Soulcleave's feelings. First the technical and then his outburst about Occult Adventures. I share his feelings too, but I don't let it affect my -- is patronage the right word? -- of Paizo. Basically, in Soulcleave's case you lost a Pathfinder Society member and probably a customer. Soulcleave is my cousin, and I talk to him every once in a while. His younger brother posts on these forums and has better information on how he feels.
Soulcleave's main complaint is simple. Paizo, you have far too many classes that you have designed that are redundant for the game to operate. Many of the ACG classes can be successfully created with what already exists.
As for his feelings about the Occult Adventures playtest --- Soulcleave is, or was, a Pathfinder Society member. Which means, he loves to play in PFS events. However, he is a fan of Psionics and has picked up DSP's Psionics Unleashed in order to play psionics in PFS events. He's that big of a fan.
--- He's frustrated he can't play his favorite class.
--- He's doubly frustrated when he's told that Psionics doesn't belong in the game.
--- He's very, very disillusioned with Paizo now, because you designed a Psionics Naysayers' psychic system in Occult Adventures.
He feels betrayed and has probably decided not to vote for your company with his dollars. The Occult Adventures, coming out four years too late, has broke the camel's back for him. He isn't going to participate in PFS (based on his post), and he probably not going to buy any more Paizo products.
He really understands that you are a business and you're in the business of publishing RPG books. He feels it's too much now.
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As for myself, I felt like I got slapped in the face two years ago when you announced it. Yeah, so, I turned the other cheek and moved on. Actually, it does not matter to me, because even though I am a Psionics DM, I went out to design a city. Play in that city has gone on for years, since 2009. In August of 2013, I started work in putting together a second draft of that city. In the intervening time, I got my Bachelor's Degree in Graphic Design in March of 2014 (Yeah, go me!) and I am laying out Pathways Magazine for Rite Publishing.
The whole city is called Phaeselis: the City of Psionics for a reason. It's designed so that everyone can either have a city to put into their campaigns that they can call "exotic" out there, or play in it as is (and a whole world grew around it). While you were holding RPG Superstar competitions, I've been quietly designing. And, well, knock yourself out.
Phaeselis, the City of Psionics.
Unlike my cousin, I do not participate in the Pathfinder Society. I don't want to. I'm quite happy using the 3rd Party materials as is. So, I don't have as much of an emotional investment. He does.
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As T'shen said
I get where he is coming from.
He likes previous edition Psionics.
He likes the DSP updated Psionics.
He tries to share that like of a system with others.
Some complain that the feel is wrong (ignoring reflavoring for other settings/campaigns) or that the system is OP (ignoring the math involved and how some of the rules interact).
This happens enough that he gets disheartened.
This continues, even when he tries to discuss why those specific perceptions of Psionics and how Psionics in Play are actually very different.
Disheartenedness turns to genuine bitterness.
It's not as easy for some to shrug off the negative opinions of others.
. . . Jason Bulmahn, did an amazing job creating innovative new mechanics for the game, but started with the premise that he already had a pretty good game to build upon. He didn't wipe the slate clean and start over. . . he wanted to empower them with the ability to build on what they'd already created, played, and read. He didn't want to take anything away from them--only to give them even more.One of the best things about the Pathfinder RPG is that it really necessitates no "conversion" of your existing books and magazines. That shelf you have full of great adventures and sourcebooks (many of them very likely from Paizo)? You can still use everything on it with the Pathfinder RPG. . . .
. . . So while the Pathfinder RPG is compatible with the 3.5 rules, it can be used without any other books. . . I hope that you find this system to be fun and simple to use, while still providing the same sort of depth and variety of options you've come to expect from a fantasy roleplaying game. . . .
Pathfinder converted most of the open content, but not all. Then, even though saying the systems are compatible and you can use other (3.5) materials, saying "Sorry, you can't use the stuff we didn't bother to include."
I can't say I am shocked at this point. PFS doesn't even include all of the options Pathfinder offers, so why would it offer the ability to play classes that they glossed over in the original conversion?
You know this. I know this. Maybe even intellectually Soulcleave knows this... but it doesn't negate his feelings.
I can connect the dots on EltonJ's and Soulcleave's comments because I've felt that way, too, from time to time. It's not always easy to be easy going when you have people telling you what you like sucks and doesn't belong in the game (doesn't fit the flavor/OP/glad it didn't get converted/happy to leave it behind kind of responses...).
But as has been mentioned, that's a conversation for another thread... one that will likely be jumped on by Psionics Naysayers. :\
That's all I tried to explain on the Occult Adventures Playtest thread.
-- Elton Robb
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Occult Adventures is not Psionics. It was never intended to be Psionics. Paizo has been very clear from the beginning that if/when they got around to publishing "mental Magic" it: 1) wouldn't be "psionics" and 2) wouldn't use Power Points.
To expect Occult Adventures to be "psionics" at this point is unrealistic.
-Skeld
Yeah, and what else?
There's a lot more to cover.
Besides, I know its mind magic. It doesn't mean that it causes confusion. However, Soulcleave's reaction on the boards turned the attention away from the Occult Adventures playtest for longer than it should have, but he had some valid points.
There was a lot more to cover, so respond to what he said about class bloat.
Lead Designer
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To be honest, I am a little confused here.
I get that some might be disappointed that we did not do a conversion of the 3.5 psionic system. We decided long ago that the system was not really something we wanted to explore mechanically, but that we might look at it from another angle. Occult Adventures is that attempt.
Combine this with the fact that Dreamscarred is doing a good job with the existing system, and I think we are covering all the bases, except one: PFS. It is an unfortunate truth that PFS does not allow any content from 3rd party publishers (like Dreamscarred). We cannot control the power or quality of such material, and as a result, there is no way for us to sanction it for our organized play campaign.
I apologize if that is a problem, but it is not really something we can change.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
To be honest, I am a little confused here.
I get that some might be disappointed that we did not do a conversion of the 3.5 psionic system. We decided long ago that the system was not really something we wanted to explore mechanically, but that we might look at it from another angle. Occult Adventures is that attempt.
Combine this with the fact that Dreamscarred is doing a good job with the existing system, and I think we are covering all the bases, except one: PFS. It is an unfortunate truth that PFS does not allow any content from 3rd party publishers (like Dreamscarred). We cannot control the power or quality of such material, and as a result, there is no way for us to sanction it for our organized play campaign.
I apologize if that is a problem, but it is not really something we can change.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I wanted to move the conversation away from the Occult Adventures playtest, I hope that alleviates the confusion.
I'm sure my cousin would thank you for the apology, but I'm sure he would've not reacted so emotionally if you promised to release this much earlier. Thanks for responding quickly, Jason. He's just complaining about the timing, and the class bloat. :)
I was supporting his views, but also say that since I don't to PFS, his complaint about PFS isn't something I share.