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So in the Kineticist thread there were a number of builds posted with vital strike included in them, but as I read it since the blasts are a SP ability they are not an "attack action" EXCEPT the whip and blade infusions. By my reading since those say "as part of an attack action" that means it is a valid target for vital strike...which doubles (or triples) the damage dice. This seems absurdly good.
Is this really how it works, or am I missing something?
So, at say 16th level a sandstorm blast deals 16d6+16+con mod. If you were to use kinetic blade or whip and improved vital strike that turns into 48d6+16+con mod?!? That seems way too good, although I suppose that the poor to-hot chance might balance that out.
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So, at say 16th level a sandstorm blast deals 16d6+16+con mod. If you were to use kinetic blade or whip and improved vital strike that turns into 48d6+16+con mod?!? That seems way too good, although I suppose that the poor to-hot chance might balance that out.
Kinetic Blade and Kinetic Whip are defined as weapons and use the normal rules for attacking with weapons.
A 16th level kineticist with Haste could make four iterative attacks vs an opponent's touch AC for a total of 64d6+64+4(con mod). As touch attacks, most of those will hit on a 2+
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That's another debate. I personally like Vital Strike, even without furious finish. Suboptimal most of the time, but I like it.
~190 damage. That's not all that unreasonable an amount of damage for a 16th level character.
Blasting is overrated.
Yeah... Just what part of 190 average damage seems all that good at all? Any Striker worth their salt is going to be keeping up in that realm, and any other Striker doesn't have to worry about being stuck on a 3/4 BAB chassis.
Some damage is listed as (1d6+1) per 2 levels so isn't that the base weapon damage? So shouldn't the +1's be counted in the vital strike damage as well?
Vital strike just multiplies the damage DICE not some "base weapon damage".
The feat says roll the "weapon's dice", the weapon dice of a blast is 1d6+1 / 2 levels. That's what I meant it was just easier to say base weapon damage. My thought was the +1 is inherent in the damage so why shouldn't it be counted?
*Begins casting summon Paizo designer*
I don't think the intent is for the static bonuses to be multiplied on a vital strike.
Maximize and empower would only effect the damage that came from the blast. The extra dice come from the vital strike.
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The base damage for a 10th level kineticist is 5d6+5. Vital Strike would hit for 10d6+10 plus any other modifiers.Thats what I'd vote for as well.
Though that leaves me wondering if you could maximize and empower all that. (empower extra dice would not interact with Vital strike of course). It'd be interesting to be able to burn a ton and maximize a ton of dice at once. Probably using extra range and true strike wand.
....I just really want to build a sniper aetherist.
Maximize would certainly work, and I see it as standard practice given that there is zero burn if you gather elements first.
This might be slightly off topic, but with multiplication of damage dice could a warpriest/kineticist select the blade/whip as sacred and used the enhanced damage dice for it?
This might be slightly off topic, but with multiplication of damage dice could a warpriest/kineticist select the blade/whip as sacred and used the enhanced damage dice for it?
Maybe but that would make zero sense as sacred weapon uses either the base damage or the progressed damage. It does not improve the die size if the base weapon (like a greatsword at level 1) is already higher.
This might be slightly off topic, but with multiplication of damage dice could a warpriest/kineticist select the blade/whip as sacred and used the enhanced damage dice for it?Maybe but that would make zero sense as sacred weapon uses either the base damage or the progressed damage. It does not improve the die size if the base weapon (like a greatsword at level 1) is already higher.
I think i answered my own question. the die increase is nice (1d6 eventually goes to 1d8 etc) but that is just a single die increase, not accounting for when the dice go up to 2d6 and beyond. it would not increase each d6 to d8s so not worthwhile to take.
Did Seifer ever make a ruling on this?
Vital Strike shouldn't work on Spell-Like Abilities, which the Kineticist's Blast is.
But the ability is made with a full attack or attack action. The vital strike and the kinetic whip(/blade) power are both affecting the attack action rather than the vital strike effecting the kinetic whip directly.
There should probably be a ruling.
Though I think perhaps that vital attack is some kind of special attack action maybe? So maybe it does not count as a normal attack action? It is a tough call.
There is no "weapon" for which a dice is stated anyway. Either way, I'd go with the conservative call and not allow vital strike to work. There's empower/maximize for that
There is a "weapon" for weapon finesse and weapon focus so why isn't there a "weapon" for damage dice?
The base damage for a 10th level kineticist is 5d6+5. Vital Strike would hit for 10d6+10 plus any other modifiers.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming ), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
It would be 10d6+5, plus other mods.
The base damage for a 10th level kineticist is 5d6+5. Vital Strike would hit for 10d6+10 plus any other modifiers.Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming ), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.It would be 10d6+5, plus other mods.
Yeah, nothing indicates that the +5 is a bonus and not the base damage. For instance look at Autograpnel. Base damage is 1d8+6. The +6 isn't a bonus but part of the base damage itself.
ooh autograpnel good catch. I wasn't sure if there was any other examples.
but yeah base weapon so it works with it.
LOL I KNEW I'd seen one in one of the newer book but I had to look through several before I found it. :)
Yeah, nothing indicates that the +5 is a bonus and not the base damage. For instance look at Autograpnel. Base damage is 1d8+6. The +6 isn't a bonus but part of the base damage itself.The base damage for a 10th level kineticist is 5d6+5. Vital Strike would hit for 10d6+10 plus any other modifiers.Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming ), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.It would be 10d6+5, plus other mods.
Yeah, you should read vital strike outloud to yourself. When you hear the word "roll," pay extra close attention to that part. Ask yourself, again outloud, "can I "roll" a +1? Hmmm, no? Ok, that must be a bonus then. I can tell because of the "+" thingie, and because I can't roll it."
Vital strike doubles the dice. If it isn't dice, it isn't doubled.
Take a blank d6. Start with writing 2 on a side, repeat with new side adding 1 until you go up to 7. Roll dice for a d6+1. Or if you wish take a normal d6 and put a 1 on each side of the blank d6. Look I just rolled a d1. So yes you can roll a 1.
The 'bonuses' we're talking about aren't external ones like vital strike is talking about but part of the base damage roll. It's NOT an added bonus but an integral part of the base damage.
"Damage: This is the weapon's base damage." tech guide
Autograpnel: Base damage is 1d8+6. tech guide
Also
Natural attacks by size: the farthest left totals are all 1's. Vital strike stops working for them?
A normal d3 weapon in Tiny form has a damage dice of 1 also. No tiny vital strike? My small character gets reduced and now lost his vital strike
Jeff Merola: It doesn't really matter why it has a +6. They listed base damage as 1d8+6. They would need to change that to 1d8 listed amount for it to change from that base damage to 1d8 base and +6 bonus.
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The way I see it, is for the autograpnel with vital strike would deal 2d8+6. Because the +6 is from it's effective strength bonus, and unless you have Mythic Vital Strike, it's not increased.. only the Damage Dice is. The +6 is not a damage die, therefore not increased.
As for vital strike working with the Kinetic Blade? No way. You have your attack action. With that You can:
Attack Action: Use your simple Blast.
Attack Action: Kinetic Blade to make an attack.
Attack Action: Vital Strike with a weapon.You cant use your attack action to make a Kinetic Blade AND a Vital Strike at the same time.
As a full attack action you can
FAA: Kinetic Blade and make your iterative attacks. (2 at 8th lvl, 3 at 15th.)
Vital strike modifies the attack action, it's not an action on it's own. By your own stated actions vital strike works on both because that are both attack actions.
Jeff Merola: It doesn't really matter why it has a +6. They listed base damage as 1d8+6. They would need to change that to 1d8 listed amount for it to change from that base damage to 1d8 base and +6 bonus.
Except vital strike doesn't say "base damage," vital strike says, "roll the dice twice."
Jeff Merola: It doesn't really matter why it has a +6. They listed base damage as 1d8+6. They would need to change that to 1d8 listed amount for it to change from that base damage to 1d8 base and +6 bonus.Except vital strike doesn't say "base damage," vital strike says, "roll the dice twice."
It doesn't say that either, here is what the feat says.
Vital Strike: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
As you can see it says "roll the weapon's damage dice" now what's the weapons damage dice of a blast well that varies; some are 1d6 per 2 levels & some are 1d6+1 per 2 levels. The +1's are an intrinsic part of that blast, that dice is 1d6+1. People say "base damage" as a short cut to mean without other modifiers such as strength, dexterity, or constitution.
Jeff Merola: It doesn't really matter why it has a +6. They listed base damage as 1d8+6. They would need to change that to 1d8 listed amount for it to change from that base damage to 1d8 base and +6 bonus.Except vital strike doesn't say "base damage," vital strike says, "roll the dice twice."It doesn't say that either, here is what the feat says.
Vital Strike: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
As you can see it says "roll the weapon's damage dice" now what's the weapons damage dice of a blast well that varies; some are 1d6 per 2 levels & some are 1d6+1 per 2 levels. The +1's are an intrinsic part of that blast, that dice is 1d6+1. People say "base damage" as a short cut to mean without other modifiers such as strength, dexterity, or constitution.
I'm well aware of what it says, if you look about 15 posts up thread you will see that I quoted already. It says roll twice, then add other stuff. You can try to squidge that all you want but VS works as I have described.
LOL it's not a 'squidge' at all. let me ask you. Can you use vital strike with a tiny dagger? A mentioned this in my posts but you ignored it.
LOL it's not a 'squidge' at all. let me ask you. Can you use vital strike with a tiny dagger? A mentioned this in my posts but you ignored it.
RAW no, RAI probably.
Then I'll agree to disagree. Expect table variations as I can't imagine I'm the only one to see dice as the base damage range instead of actual physical dice. I guess this is another question to toss into FAQ pile.
Then I'll agree to disagree. Expect table variations as I can't imagine I'm the only one to see dice as the base damage range instead of actual physical dice. I guess this is another question to toss into FAQ pile.
You're not alone. I see a dice of 1d6+1 distinct and different from 1d6.
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You're not alone. I see a dice of 1d6+1 distinct and different from 1d6.Then I'll agree to disagree. Expect table variations as I can't imagine I'm the only one to see dice as the base damage range instead of actual physical dice. I guess this is another question to toss into FAQ pile.
I agree. 1d6+1 is the base damage; Vital Strike would hit for 2d6+2.
I just hope they will add the same wording in the blast damage than in the alchemist's bomb damage:
something like :
1D6 base damage (+1D6 per 2 level, not to be counted in vital strike...)so vital strike only multiplies the base 1D6 (or 1D6+1)
That would be a disaster. A move action for burn free empowered kinetic whip vital strikes is basically the only way the kineticist keeps any kind of pace with other strikers at later levels. They don't ever get fast bombs, and their blast is at-will, not per day, so Vital Strike doesn't undermine their limited resources like it does for alchemist bombs.
Of course, I would rather their base damage and/or accuracy just get upped, rather than requiring melee talents and a vital strike feat tax to compete.