Goblin Squad Member
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I had looking forward to blow som Goblins to the moon this morning, but the only thing I got was some sound effects a weird smoke effect on my bow animation (can live with that) but not one Goblin took a hitpoint as I could see (but their bombs work, yes they do).
It was Apprentice fire I was using...
With the delay I'm thinking of upping Alchemy to train with Tanglebags, but perhaps I should re-prioritie that...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just logged in and tossed a couple of Apprentice's Choking Bombs at a Razmiran Militant (a yellow enemy), to verify that they actually do damage.
The result: They do a little damage, but only a little. The first one seemed to be a dud. I don't think he lost a single hit point. The second one knocked his health down by 11 points. The third one inflicted about 15 points of damage, and inflicted a small amount of burn damage. The various bombs also have secondary effects, in addition to hit point damage.
I'll run some more tests tomorrow against starter goblins and white enemies, for comparison.
I've made some Apprentice's Fire, and they do damage, but not a lot.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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What plus value was the grenade?
Consumables work like expendables, but instead of matching keywords, they have a keyword effect based on the + of the item. A +3 variation of the item should work like a maxed out version of a spell (e.g., since the tier 1 grenades are level 3, a +3 version acts like a spell that's matching three keywords and should deal 61 base damage). Less or more + value adds or subtracts "keywords" from the total. Thus, a +0 tier 1 grenade acts like it's matching 0 keywords, and should only do the minimum of 40 base damage.
All that said, most of them have decent damage factors and are doing energy damage that should be hard for low level creatures to resist. A Fire grenade should be doing up to about 74 damage against targets with no fire resistance (such as low level goblins) on a full hit, even at +0. (And that syncs up with what you took.)
Was it possible there was something hitting you that has an interrupt? At 2.3 seconds, the grenades all have a pretty hefty interruption window. Goblins can't do that, but if there was a bandit archer nearby it's a possibility.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan,
I am aware of that, I have even mentioned it before so I know where the priorities are, and I am cool with that. My question was more as in "there are multiple sources of information to track*" and I am not sure if that got updated or not (and I missed it). :)
* = Alpha Forum, Paizo Forum, Blog, Dev. Quotes, Gaming Articles, In Game Chat logs, Gobo Cast, PFO Wiki, Developers Spreadsheets....
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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So we think we figured out what's going on. It's a combination of factors:
The grenade attack is 2.3 seconds and the damage should hit at around 1.8 seconds of the attack. But it doesn't have the right animation hooked up yet, so it will play a fairly fast lobbing animation (though it might do something different with a bow). So the damage seems to happen a second later than the animation appears to finish.
Consumables are (intentionally) on the expendables cooldown. So when you throw one, the orange bar over your expendables bar starts counting down to when you can attack again (as an aside: after the next patch, you should be able to make weapon attacks during this period, just not expendables and consumables). However, the client will play the animation if you try to throw another grenade during the cooldown; it's not actually throwing a grenade (you don't actually lose a grenade) so it won't actually do any damage even though it looks like you attacked. This would also happen if you attacked with another expendable/used another consumable and then immediately tried to throw a grenade.
Rob's writing up the second one presently, and the first one is a known art issue.
We could not replicate the issue of doing reduced damage. Is it possible something else was dealing damage at the time? (If so, it may have looked like the zero-damage bugged animation was the cause of the low amount of damage, but it was really something else.) Please also check in general to see if what we think is the cause of your issue isn't actually what's going on for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll try throwing some more over the next few days under the following protocol:
Approach singleton enemy
Throw one grenade
Wait out the cool down
Throw one grenade again
Make no other attacks
Slot no reactive feats
Record damage numbers over enemy's head
Note any damage over time effects that appear on enemy's health bar (burn, bleed, etc.)
So far, all the grenades I've made have been +0. If I can make a few +1 grenades, I'll test them, too.
If anyone wants to help, please keep listing as many apothecary components as possible on the Alderwag AH. The far NW is rich in Deadly ingredients (belladonna berries), and has a decent supply of Flammable ingredients (brimstone), but it's fairly poor in other apothecary ingredients.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Should grenades also be applying reactive feat effects? My tests indicate that they were, causing me to plan Master of Opportunity: Stand Still and slotting a grenade as my plan for my melee character dealing with people who just run away.
With reactives having bugs in their current implementation, I'm not sure if consumables should be applying those effects like attacks do, or if they should not apply those effects like beneficial effects do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Razmiran Recruiter (white)
Apprentice's Choking Bomb +0
1st hit - 12 pts
2nd hit - 17 pts
3rd hit - 17 pts
Bonedancer Warrior (white)
Apprentice's Fire +0
1st hit - 53 pts
2nd hit - 74 pts
3rd hit - 74 pts
(Note: Hits 2 and 3 were on a separate Bonedancer Warrior, after regenerating some Power.)
Choking Bombs require Flammable Extracts and Cathartic Extracts.
Damage Factor 0.29, Speed 2.3, Stamina 23, Acid Damage, Splash, Oblivious 10 to All, Afflicted 10 to All, Targets Fortitude
Fire requires Flammable Extracts, as mentioned by Schedim, above.
Damage Factor 1.82, Speed 2.3, Stamina 23, Fire Damage, Splash
Ice requires Luminous Extracts and Azure Crystals
--Azure Crystals require Esoteric Essences, Ordered Essences and Lesser Numinous (gemstones)
----Lesser Numinous gemstones are Freshwater Pearls and Moonstones.
Damage Factor 1.82, Speed 2.3, Stamina 23, Cold Damage, Splash
So out of the things I have recipes for, Choking Bombs do the least direct damage, have the most damage effects, and require moderate resources (2 different Extracts). Fire does good direct damage, has 2 damage effects, and requires the most straight-forward resources (Only one Extract type). Ice does the same direct damage as Fire, and has the same number of damage effects, but for some reason it requires by far the most work to create, being made from one Extract and one Alchemist recipe, which is further made from two different essence types and a gemstone. Maybe fire resistance is much more common than cold resistance?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah! Naturlich! I was targetting the goblin shaman and the geezer probably had energy resistant clothing! And the imaginative grenade trowing during the cooldown confused me further. Good, then its working!
About ice grenades, Traditonally ice is associated with secondary effect such as Slow and Fatigue. Perhaps they are in the pipe and that is the reason for the higher production cost.
I have Weak Flammable Extract +1. I'm based out of Rathglen this week. In game all day every day for the most part (work from home).
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Flammable is higher on the spreadsheets' projected values than Luminous: it's used in most of the big boom grenades, while Luminous is only used in the cold grenades and some miscellaneous stuff. So, long term, it should be harder to come by, such that it's about as expensive to make a cold grenade as a fire one.
But expect tweaks to recipes over time as we get actual data on how much players value various components rather than our largely arbitrary projected data. The whole thing is one giant moving target (changing the value changes the number of various things used which changes the relative amounts put into the game which changes how much players will pay for them), so it'll require quite a bit of iteration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have Weak Flammable Extract +1. I'm based out of Rathglen this week. In game all day every day for the most part (work from home).
Excellent. I'll keep an eye out for you.
Because of the ratio of ingredients, mixing Weak Cathartic Extracts +1 and Weak Flammable Extracts +0 makes Apprentice's Choking Bombs +0.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Apprentice Thunder is a grenade that gives Quickened to self ...?
Do I miss something here or ...
Oops. Good catch.
One of these days I'm going to figure out how to get excel to default vertical lookups to "False"/Exact Match rather than "True"/First Match, or at least stop forgetting to set it on some of the lookups. (By default, the formula will grab the first similar thing in the list if it's not sorted in alphabetical order, so the consumable dumb tooltips were partially pulling data from other consumables.)
It's just a text bug; if you you make it and slot it the smart tooltips on the action bar entry will show you the right effects. Fixing it now, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bookmarked for inclusion in the soon to be updated EE FAQ thread; and for new people to add new insight to the topic on hand. :)