Mark,
Would you be willing to let us know at what level Beseech spirit ended up at?
Are you sure that isn't the max number of spirits a medium can have at once?
Don't worry!
The tweet is "#paizocon now talking about the 6 spirits of the medium."
He means the six types of spirits, the ones corresponding to the six ability scores.
That makes more sense now.
Oh man. :( I was wrong.
That's incorrect, DMW. Due to a class with 54 spirits taking up a huge chunk of the book's wordcount, the number of spirits was scaled down to 6, which each one representing an embodiment of classic heroic archetypes (small "a") which correspond to the six mythic tiers. Jason stated they promise to find a home for the 54 in a future product!
We'll get the fifty-four eventually, though, it sounds like. Well, that's okay. From what I seen of the Mesmerist, that'll let me make the character I wanted to make well enough. I'm sure I'll be able to make some interesting stuff with the revised Medium as well! Mythic Lite, The Class sounds pretty cool.
If this is true, this is extremely disappointing. I was really looking forward to the medium as a pathfinder representation of the binder. I'll try to give it a chance, but I felt constrained in the Playtest with only 18 spirits. Knowing that my choices have been whittled down by 2/3 makes me sad.
Oh man. :( I was wrong.
That's incorrect, DMW. Due to a class with 54 spirits taking up a huge chunk of the book's wordcount, the number of spirits was scaled down to 6, which each one representing an embodiment of classic heroic archetypes (small "a") which correspond to the six mythic tiers. Jason stated they promise to find a home for the 54 in a future product!We'll get the fifty-four eventually, though, it sounds like. Well, that's okay. From what I seen of the Mesmerist, that'll let me make the character I wanted to make well enough. I'm sure I'll be able to make some interesting stuff with the revised Medium as well! Mythic Lite, The Class sounds pretty cool.
The revised medium is still pretty cool, but it does indeed have only 6 spirits (which are pretty badass now!). I wrote all 54 spirits for the original version, and given some of the other options available, it was my call to go with this new version (inspired by some of you guys during the playtest, Stephen's great ideas, and some of my own thoughts) because it was not only a solution that would avoid cutting stuff from the kineticist, it also preserved the original medium for later release (as opposed to something like 54 spirits that only had 2 abilities each or the like).
Is there solid plans to release the 54 spirit version, or is it more like . . . "When we feel there is a spot and a market for it." . . .?
Not whining, just curious, I know decisions have to be made. I just want to know if I should hold out any reasonable hope for the more flavorful, many choices version.
According to a friend of mine who attended paizocon, the 6 spirits are named after the mythic paths, not harrow cards. Does this mean the harrow has been scrapped entirely from the concept?
The Harrowed Medium will be released later, so probably. However, the mythic paths correspond with ability scores, so just roll a d10 for alignment, reroll or choose on 10, and you can tie it back to harrow easily.
From what I seen of the Mesmerist, that'll let me make the character I wanted to make well enough.
Does that mean you have some new info on the Mesmerist? If so please share on the Mesmerist thread!
Does that mean you have some new info on the Mesmerist? If so please share on the Mesmerist thread!
From what I seen of the Mesmerist, that'll let me make the character I wanted to make well enough.
Nope, no new info. It was the Cult Leader archetype that convinced me!
Nope, no new info. It was the Cult Leader archetype that convinced me!Does that mean you have some new info on the Mesmerist? If so please share on the Mesmerist thread!
From what I seen of the Mesmerist, that'll let me make the character I wanted to make well enough.
The Cult Leader is indeed crazy-cool.
Something that really appealed to me in the playtest material was the possiblity of running a Medium centered around The Lost spirit and it's insanity causing mayhem, would something in that vein still be possible with the new Mythic archetypes setup?
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Aw, I'm so disappointed that the full 54 aren't going to be in there. Still, it makes a lot of sense why they're not there. I'd love to see the full 54 come out at some stage though.
I have to say, Medium was easily my favourite of the classes in the playtest. It gets almost everything I like having in a character. The versatility, the roleplaying opportunities, the psychopaths that live your head...
I hope it doesn't change too much in the final version.
It's late, largely because I wasn't aware of the playtest until too late, but I've had an opportunity to try medium. I know it's going to be completely irrelevant now, but it might still be useful if they make the harrow medium a thing again.
It's been a homebrew campaign, and I had the good fortune to start at level 7, which is where the class really starts getting good.
Spirits known: Cricket, Bear, Beating, Desert, Unicorn, Twin
Ability array after racial modifiers and level bonuses: 14, 14, 12, 13, 11, 17
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Escape route (Would have swapped for Spirit Specialisation(Charisma) if I'd known about it at the time).
Basically a standard longspear build. Stuff comes close, I trip them. My default spirits contacted are unicorn (1st) and twin (2nd), typically using Aid Another on my turn and trancing to utilise Twin for Desert at the start of the day.
For the future, I'd probably grab Spirit Specialisation(Charisma) at level 9, Greater Trip/Tandem Trip at 11 and 13. Swift Aid would definitely come before anything else if the Unicorn's Fortuitous Aid worked with it (which apparently it doesn't according to Mark).
Once Tertiary Spirit came along I'd have been using The Empty Throne as 2nd spirit, pushing Twin into 3rd. Charisma Spirits are awesome!
Okay, okay, it's not necessary, but I like my fluff. Plus I can maybe inspire an archetype or monster or something by someone who's better at designing things than I am.
I played a Samsaran. Since Samsarans have an Asian theme in Golarion, I tried to bring out a Japanese feel for her, dressing her up in a Japanese Shrine Maiden's outfit and giving her a spear made of cherry wood. Her spirits are her memories from her many previous lives, and by contacting a spirit she is calling on her memories of a previous life and gaining access to their abilities and knowledge.
None of the people in the sessions I played in had any idea what I was (except for the GM of course), and I had great fun hiding it. I used those little Japanese prayer card things as a 'focus' for the spells. The shared Seances were a series of things ranging from telling stories from my past lives to team building exercises to combat drills. Sure, they may not have followed the shared seance rules exactly, but they were a lot better for hiding what I was and made more sense considering my interpretation of my spirits.
Over all her past lives, there is one memory that seems to be in common with all of them: her death. She's not sure how she knows it, but she knows that each time, it's been the same person. The final memory she has before she dies is her unknown killer carving a number into her hand as a running tally of how many times he's killed her. This number shows up on her hand as a scare that can glow with an eerie green light (*cough* marked by unknown forces trait *cough*). It hasn't mattered what she's done in the 37 lives she's been killed by this unknown person; every time he somehow tracks her down and kills her again, no matter the precautions she takes.
She's taken up painting over the last few lives as a way of keeping track of where she's been and as little memory joggers for her future selves, should they be able to find the paintings.
She knows that whoever her mysterious killer is, he knows exactly where she is and what she's doing and is just playing with her. At several times throughout her current life after a particularly notable event, she has found a harrow card relating to the event in her possessions, along with a long Samsaran-bone dagger: her own bones. They've been numbered from 1 to 17 so far, and the number has risen with each new dagger...
And then the rest is just stuff to get her integrated into the campaign.
I had Unicorn (1st) and Twin (2nd) contacted. Fairly early on I tranced to get Desert and utilised its lesser spirit power to very good effect over the entire day. Saved party member's lives three times over the course of the day.
In combat, I tended to use the Unicorn's Fortuitous aid to grant +4 attack and damage for the Party's brawler, which was hugely appreciated. the total damage increase was quite a lot more effective than what I was actually able to output myself, especially because most of the monsters had DR.
Eventually I tranced to Cricket when a pack of veloceraptors attacked in some difficult terrain. The mobility it gave was a great tactical advantage, especially utilising escape route to just run around in a circle before attacking, taking advantage of its intermediate spirit power.
Used a couple of spells in this one; Heroism was pretty nifty, as was mirror image.
We were a couple of people down for this session, so I had a completely different spirit lineup: Bear (1st) and Beating (2nd).
This turned out to be... awkward. We spent the whole time in a dungeon, and being large (13'2") was *really* not helpful. Turned out not to have a whole lot of impact, luckily. We were fighting a whole lot of basilisks, so being large was being awkward for curing petrification, but luckily that only happened once.
Still able to hit things fairly easily, and it was amazing having a 20 ft. reach with my longspear. Extra CMB from being large helped for tripping, and indeed ended up being helpful for pulling off other combat manoeuvres without provoking as well.
If I wasn't in such an enclosed space, I probably would have pulled out the special "Trance and cast Enlarge Person" trick that Bear has (Does that work? Pretty sure it should) to become gargantuan with 40 ft reach.
I was able to keep up with the attack and damage of the party's cleric, who was rather better equipped, cast bull's strength on himself and *not* squeezing all the time, but not able to keep up with the heavily optimised Swashbuckler.
I'd noticed Beseech Spirit for this session and (being well past level 3) I used it a fair bit over the course of the session. Blindsight was extremely good against basilisks, even if it didn't last long, as was the 'mini channel' of the Con Spirits.
Can you use Twin to bypass Alignment restrictions? Say for example you have Twin(N/Cha) as your primary spirit and Owl(N/Wis) as your secondary spirit. You trance to get Unicorn(G/Cha), then at the end of the trance kick out Owl and get Cricket(G/Dex), which you can do because Twin is currently (N and G/Cha). Then you trance to get, say, Liar(E/Cha). This gives you a final spirit combo of Twin(N and E/Cha) as Primary and Cricket(G/Dex) - An illegal combination. But, it was legal at the time!
Can Desert transfer Ability damage using its lesser spirit power? The description just says damage, and not specifically Hit Point Damage or non-lethal damage or anything like that.
As mentioned above, can you use Enlarge person on top of Bear's Humongous to increase a total of three size categories? If so, it'd be nice to have some clarification in the rules about how this works, because Enlarge Person really doesn't work well with multiple effective iterations.
You do get the intermediate power of the thing you trance if you trance with twin's copycat ability, right? Right?
Using the same character, I was able to swap roles fairly effectively, which I thought was excellent.
I didn't go through the early levels, but it's blatantly obvious that for at least level 3 and 4 Twin is the best spirit and stays being amazingly good even after that point (especially if you specialise in Charisma). Twin is just so good that I simply cannot imagine ever not using it after level 3.
Medium definitely needs Beseech, and I'd also agree that either 2nd or 3rd is the place to put it. There's not a huge number of options available at low levels, so this sort of ability is definitely necessary. But, I can see Medium being an even bigger dip class than Brawler if it was any earlier.
I like that Charisma spirits are useless to contract unless you invest in them a little bit first. And then they're the best. Just like actual charisma.
I'm not totally sure how it'd work, but I feel like if the full 54 came out and you needed to have a true match with alignment to get a spirit with a different ability it would be hugely limiting. But, I can also see that if they just needed to have one part of the alignment the same (So with a CG spirit you can have C or G spirits come in) it becomes far to open. Something in the middle's what I think would work best. Say, being able to pick a focus on the Good/Evil axis or the Law/Chaos axis at the start of the day and spirits have to match up their alignments based on that.
With Beseech, more spirits is good, and by level 7 at least it's feeling like I've got enough. I'd like more spirits so I could do a few more things, and probably enough to take a feat for it. But I can see that by higher levels I'll probably have enough spirits to get everything I want for any occasion. If it wasn't for beseech I'd say medium'd want a few more spirits though.
I'd like to see a feat like this:
Spirit Bond
Pick one of your spirits known. Its spirit bonus increases by 1. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Spirit Specialisation.
You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different spirit.
In the same vein, a favoured class bonus that increases the spirit bonus of a single spirit by 1/3 would be about right.
Conclusions:
People have been saying that Medium should be d10 HD and fast BAB, or have increased spell casting. I think I'm actually fine with it as it is, because as it is, you can get contact enough spirits to 'specialise' well enough to do nearly as well as a more dedicated class. Nearly, but not quite, which is good. I think it seems to fit its role pretty well.
That said, I feel like a bonus feat or two might not go astray here.
A helpful little summary of all the extra unlocked stuff so you don't need to go looking for it!
Hopefully I've nabbed everything here. Everything's just copy-pasted here.
A new medium ability! The level isn't given, but Mark indicates that it's either 2nd or 3rd.
As a standard action, you call upon one of the spirits you know how to contact, whether you have that spirit active or not. You can beseech each spirit you know how to contact once per day, and the spirit does not gain any influence over you. There is a varying effect depending on the type of spirit.
Strength--All foes in a radius of 5 feet per spirit bonus take 1d6 damage per spirit bonus (Will save for half DC 10 + 1/2 medium level + Cha modifier).
Deterity--You move your movement speed + 5 additional feet per spirit bonus. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Constitution--All living allies in a radius of 5 feet per spirit bonus heal 1d6 damage per spirit bonus.
Intelligence--After using this ability, when you roll a skill check, after seeing the result, you can add 1d6. This ability lasts until you use it once per spirit bonus or until a number of mintues pass equal to spirit bonus, whichever comes first.
Wisdom--You gain blindsight 10 ft per spirit bonus for a number of rounds equal to spirit bonus.
Charisma--Choose any of the above five powers.
Two new Medium Feats!
Prerequisites: medium level 1st
Benefit: You know how to contact 2 more spirits.
Prerequisites: medium level 1st
Benefit: Choose an ability score. Your spirit bonus from spirits of that ability is increased by 1.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, you must choose a different ability score.
And 6 New Spirits!
The Empty Throne is a spirit that promises that those who are gone will always be with us. The Empty Throne embodies the lessons they taught us, and the ancient knowledge they held. The Empty Throne might represent a creature that is capable of acting in the role of a psychopomp and bridging the gap between the living and the dead, a medium or spiritualist, or a particular member of the medium’s honored dead.
Spirit Bonus (Charisma): None
Séance Boon: Choose a séance boon from any of the spirits the medium knows
Spells: 1st—?,?; 2nd—?,?; 3rd—?,?; 4th—?,?
Compulsion: Respectful—You show unusual respect to elders and extreme respect to the dead, stopping to bury bodies you find and eschewing grave robbing.
Enhanced Séance (Lesser, Sp): You can use <redacted> at will as a spell-like ability. You are able to enhance you séance technique with the Empty Throne’s help. While this ability is active, all numerical bonuses and penalties from séance boons increase by half for all participants (rounded down).
Many Séances (Intermediate, Su): You can perform additional séances during the day. The new séances allow you to select your spirits and allow the spirits you choose to gain influence over you as normal. Each new séance grants new séance boons but ends the effects of your previous séance boons. You must choose to contact the Empty Throne in each new séance, and if the Empty Throne is not your primary spirit, you must still arrange your spirits such that you have this ability active at the end of the new séance. For each séance, your numerical bonuses and penalties from the Empty Throne’s séance boon increase by the Empty Throne’s spirit bonus instead of by half.
Personal Séance (Greater, Sp): You can perform personal séances throughout the day on behalf of another who is present for the séance. These personal séances take the same amount of time as a normal séance. Instead of a séance’s normal effects, the effects are similar to the spell call spirit except that the duration is 1 round per medium level instead of concentration, the modifier to the saving throw based on knowledge is based on the other person’s knowledge, and the spirit possesses your body instead of appearing in a wispy form. The other participants of the séance must ask the questions, and if you wish to end the séance early, you must succeed at a Will save (DC 20 + 1/2 medium level). If you begin a personal séance, you can continue the séance and receive the full duration of the effect even if you lose this ability partway through. This is an exception to the rule that all effects of a spirit power end when you lose that spirit power.
Ancestral Blessing (Supreme, Su): You do not incur influence with the Empty Throne for trances or séances while you have this ability. If you tranced or performed a séance and gained this ability as a result, that trance or séance does not incur influence with the Empty Throne.
Spirit Bonus (Strength): Spirit bonus to attack and damage
Spells: 1st—wrath; 2nd—enthrall; 3rd—rage; 4th—?
Séance Boon: +2 to CMB to overrun
Compulsion: Revolutionary
Spirit Powers:
1st: By Whatever Means Necessary—You gain Catch Off-Guard as a bonus feat. The Uprising doubles its spirit bonus when using an improvised weapon that has not been enhanced by any spell or ability.
7th: Rising Tide—When you take a full attack action, each time you hit a target of a CR at least half your character level, you receive a cumulative +1 bonus to hit that target until you miss the target, switch targets, or complete your full attack.
13th: Strength in Numbers—At the end of your full attack, if you still had a bonus from rising tide, you can summon a number of pig farmers (NPC Codex 256) equal to your rising tide’s final bonus. This does not require an action. The pig farmers must appear in squares adjacent to you or another of the summoned pig farmers. The pig farmers last for a number of rounds equal to the Uprising’s spirit bonus, until reduced to 0 hp, or until you use strength in numbers again.
19th: Overwhelming—You can use strength in numbers multiple times without dismissing your
previously summoned pig farmers. As a standard action, you can organize 25 pig farmers into an angry mob. The angry mob gains the troop subtype with 2d6 troop damage and 45 hp, but it
otherwise has the same stats as a pig farmer.
Spirit Bonus (Constitution): Spirit bonus to Fortitude saves and 3 times spirit bonus to hit points.
Spells: 1st—paladin’s sacrifice, ?; 2nd—shield other, ?; 3rd—?; 4th—stoneskin, ?
Séance Boon: +2 to saving throws against pain and concentration checks caused by damage
Compulsion: Martyr
Spirit Powers:
1st: Delay Harm—Gain DR/— equal to twice the Brass Dwarf’s spirit bonus. Keep track of how much damage this prevents. As a standard action, you can choose to take that damage all at once, resetting the pool to 0. When you lose contact with the Brass Dwarf, or after 24 hours if you remain in contact, you take the remaining damage all at once.
7th:Adaptive Resistance—Whenever you take energy damage, you gain resistance equal to 5 times
the Brass Dwarf’s to that energy type until you take a different type of energy damage
13th:Delay the Inevitable—You may choose to delay the results to you of any attack against you for 1 round. You may not delay the results of an attack if you already have one pending. Once 1 round passes, you suffer the full effects as normal.
19th: The Needs of the Many—As an immediate action, you die and all remnants of your body
vanish (this is a death effect). All allies within 30 ft. of you receive a resurrection if they died within the last round per level and a mass heal.
Spells: 1st—alter winds (increase strength only); 2nd—cloak of winds; 3rd—elemental body
I (air only); 4th—control winds (increase strength only)
Compulsion: Destructive
Séance Boon: +2 to CMB for bull rush and trip
Spirit Powers:
Lesser: Whirling Cleave—Whenever you hit with a melee attack, all foes within your reach
with AC equal to or lower than your attack roll take an amount of damage equal to the
Cyclone’s spirit bonus of the same type as the weapon you used for the attack. In the case of
whirlwind attack or any other abilities that allow extra attacks due to outside factors like how many creatures are in your reach, whirling cleave only triggers once for the entire whirlwind
attack or similar ability.
Intermediate: Disaster—When using whirling cleave, you can deal twice your whirling cleave
damage to any number of unattended objects in reach. In place of damaging a creature with
whirling cleave, you can instead deal twice your whirling cleave damage to that creature’s
weapon, armor, or shield.
Greater: Whirlwind—You gain whirlwind attack as a bonus feat, and your whirlwind attack
counts as an area effect for the purpose of damaging swarms. Whenever you perform a whirlwind attack, the Cyclone counts as a Dexterity spirit in addition to a Strength spirit. This may cause other spirits to grant you their spirit powers instead of their spirit bonus.
Supreme: Cyclone Attack—When performing a whirlwind attack, you can also move up to
your speed, even through enemies’ squares without rolling an Acrobatics check (this movement still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal). You can make an attack against every creature you threaten at any point of your movement.
Spirit Bonus (Strength): Spirit bonus to attack and damage
Spells: 1st—death knell; 2nd—lock jaw (bite only); 3rd—deadly juggernaut; 4th—strong jaw (bite only)
Séance Boon: +2 to CMB checks to initiate and maintain a grapple
Compulsion: Ravenous
Spirit Powers:
1st: Fiend’s Maw—You grow a huge oversized maw, allowing you to make a bite attack for 1d8
damage (for Medium mediums) as a primary natural attack.
7th: Taste for Innocents—Your bite attack deals 2d6 additional damage to good targets and counts as evil.
13th: Hunger for Innocents—You gain the grab ability with your bite and the swallow whole special ability. Since your maw is oversized, you can devour creatures of your size. If you choose to do so, you become visibly gorged and count as if being under heavy encumbrance as long as the swallowed creature is alive.
19th: Calamitous Massacre—Whenever you kill a creature with a number of HD equal to at least half your character level with your swallow whole ability, you gain the effects of death knell and the Fiend’s spirit bonus increases by 1 for a number of rounds equal to the creature’s HD. The bonus increases stack up to a maximum of double the Fiend’s normal spirit bonus, but the durations do not stack.
Spirit Bonus (Intelligence): Spirit bonus to all skill checks.
Spells: 1st—borrow skill, crafter’s fortune, identify; 2nd— locate object, ?, ?; 3rd—?, pilfering hand, ?; 4th— analyze dweomer, ?, ?
Séance Boon: +2 bonus to Appraise
Compulsion: Hoarder
Spirit Powers:
1st: Seen It All—You can use all skills untrained.
7th: Dabbler—Add double the Wanderer’s spirit bonus to all skills in which you have no ranks
13th: One Man’s Trash—When using non-masterwork nonmagical weapons, armor, or shields that
are not made of a special material, they gain an enhancement bonus equal to the Wanderer’s spirit bonus –1 (maximum +5). They lose that bonus whenever they are enhanced by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability other than this one, or if they otherwise gain other special abilities in any way.
19th: True Worth—As a standard action, you may roll an Appraise check on any simple object you can see. You unlock that object’s true potential and learn the perfect way to use that object. By describing how you use the object to assist you, you may gain an insight bonus as if you had cast moment of prescience with a caster level equal to your Appraise result – 10. This ability lasts until you use the bonus, until you no longer have the Wanderer active, or until you unlock the true worth of another object, whichever comes first.
Thanks for re-posting that info Wolin, it's super convenient. I've been playing around with The Lost/Cyclone spirits a bit, probably post the character once I have the details finished. The Lost as it stands right now could use a little more precise control with confusion effects, I guess we'll see in September when Occult Origins is published (I don't know if the Harrow variant medium will be in that book, I'm just hoping desperately that is the case).
In reference to your character, I'm glad you posted the fluff. I think the medium really lends itself to some interesting character concepts, and your character is a great example.
I'd like to see more spell casting from this class personally.
As (obviously) a big fan of the Harrowed medium, since Jason has already mentioned the page count, I think it isn't giving anything away to tell you that the class can't possibly be in Occult Origins due to being approximately as long as the entire page count of Occult Origins.
In that case, I guess we'll just have to get by with the playtest material until an adequate container can be published.
Lost/Cyclone Medium
CN Human
Long story short: The Lost has a decent chance of making you hurt yourself, but a Dex-to-damage build mitigates that.
Attributes
8 18 12 14 10 14
Starting Spirits
Cyclone and Lost
Feat/Attribute Progression
1st: Weapon Finesse and Spirit Specialization: Strength.
3rd: Weapon Focus [Sickle]
4th: +1 Charisma
6th: Slashing Grace [Sickle]
8th: +1 Charisma
9th: Spirit Specialization: Wisdom
Spirit Use
Run Cyclone as your primary spirit until lv. 5, then make Lost primary and Cyclone secondary. At mid-level, the build is swinging for at least +8 damage per strike and rocks some deeply disturbing mind control. I was going to originally run the Lost as the primary from lv. 1, but that's very challenging with nothing going for it besides Will save bonuses and 1D6-1 damage per strike with the 2nd tier BAB progression until lv. 5 grants secondary access to Cyclone.
You know, the medium's Strength Spirit bonus is a neat way to add damage to a crossbow, an otherwise under-preforming weapon type.
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Heh, I like that build. It'd be a tough call as to whether you'd bring in the Owl, the Bear or the Beating as your tertiary spirit when it came along. The Beating suits the "Nothing in your hand -> No Damage" interpretation really well, and I'd probably have fun using a build centred on that if it worked.
I'd definitely agree that the Lost would benefit from either some fine control, or have a larger effect on the roll. I can see some fun teamwork happening with a Psychic using Id Insinuation II+ here though. Speaking of which, the Lost would probably benefit from having at least one of those on its spell list...
Probably the other build you could do with The Lost is couple it with The Liar and be that little bit better at confusing things. Pity you really need three spirits to make it viable though. And more spells per day. Lots more spells per day. Sort of unfortunately currently only The Vision can really give more spells per day, and there's no way to get it and this particular build as well.
I'm amused by the fact that the Harrowed Medium could be a book in its own right. But if it's not coming out in Origins, then we've probably got a bit of a wait. Maybe if there's a Big Book of Archetypes or something then we'll see it, but I doubt there'd be the market for a book that's just one archetype for a class. Even if it's the best class. That said, I'd definitely grab it if it came out.
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Yeah, if I recall correctly, Lost was scheduled for some tweaks such as a small increase to the confusion alteration (I think maybe 2% per spirit bonus instead of 1).
Another more likely possibility than a big book of archetypes might be a book about the Harrow in general in the Campaign Setting line that blends the spirit info with other interesting stuff for each card as it goes along. That said, here's hoping!
Yeah, if I recall correctly, Lost was scheduled for some tweaks such as a small increase to the confusion alteration (I think maybe 2% per spirit bonus instead of 1).
That's certainly good news. I would like to see it add or subtract from the result as well. I find the requirement of attacking the closest creature or babbling for a turn plenty restrictive. Mid-level, with a Wisdom Spirit Bonus, and the ability to add/subtract from the result, you're looking at just under a 10% chance to hurt yourself. Otherwise, you're babbling, which does nothing until you get the last power, or you're doing what you want the power to do in the first place.
Right now, the results from using the power are: no benefit, lose a turn, hurt yourself, attack closest enemy with small buff. It doesn't scale very well with the other spirits.
I'll still run it because I love the concept, but it could use a helping hand.
Yeah, if I recall correctly, Lost was scheduled for some tweaks such as a small increase to the confusion alteration (I think maybe 2% per spirit bonus instead of 1).
That's certainly good news. I would like to see it add or subtract from the result as well. I find the requirement of attacking the closest creature or babbling for a turn plenty restrictive. Mid-level, with a Wisdom Spirit Bonus, and the ability to add/subtract from the result, you're looking at just under a 10% chance to hurt yourself. Otherwise, you're babbling, which does nothing until you get the last power, or you're doing what you want the power to do in the first place.
Right now, the results from using the power are: no benefit, lose a turn, hurt yourself, attack closest enemy with small buff. It doesn't scale very well with the other spirits.
I'll still run it because I love the concept, but it could use a helping hand.
If your group uses Player Companions in your game, I strongly recommend the item azata's whimsy!
That's definitely going on the shopping list. Thanks Mark.
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I am nearly as insane as someone channeling the Lost, so I've actually done at least portions of builds, if not whole characters involving the 54 different spirits, just to see how it works and what happens!
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That item is perfect for that character, thanks for pointing that out! I think I'm going to use that particular spirit combination if I can grab the item.
Another character I like the idea of is one who uses The Brass Dwarf and The Waxworks. They trance, run into the middle of a group of monsters and paralyse themselves. At level 8 with Spirit Specialisation(Constitution), assuming the DR stacks, that's DR 16/-. Not sure it DR does stack, but either way, I just love characters that do absolutely ridiculous things like that.
I'd certainly be up for a Harrow book. I've enjoyed the way it's been a recurring theme through the adventure paths, and I do sometimes base characters around specific cards. Seems like the perfect way to bring the Harrow Medium around again, too.
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DR from different sources never stacks unless it says it does. Your Waxworks DR would protect your Brass Dwarf DR, though, so you wouldn't take that damage at the end of the day.
Thanks, I wasn't totally sure if it stacked or not; I could only find rules that said it didn't stack if it was two different types (like DR 10/Silver and DR 5/Silver). I guess its DR is better than Brass Dwarf's DR though, so might as well use this over Dwarf's if you have the choice.
Only just occurred to me that because the Medium is a psychic caster, you can still cast when paralysed. That does make it rather easier to work with the Waxworks.
Oh, and just using freedom of movement, which would be the other thing that I didn't think about for some reason. Since it lets you move freely without actually removing the condition...
Certainly if you have the money or other resources for continuous freedom of movement I could see the Waxworks becoming a favourite spirit. By level 13 it'd be feasible to have it up constantly and enjoy the benefits of the double spirit bonus on HP and Fort Saves.
Somewhat comically, I can picture this becoming quite a mobile character, despite being perpetually paralysed. I'm sure there's something you could do with something that freezes creatures in place when they start next to them, but I can't think of anything at the moment.
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You can absolutely cast psychic spells with the Waxworks and still get all the benefits. If you actually used freedom of movement or remove paralysis to cancel the condition or its effects, though, you'd lose all the effects.
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Thanks for clarifying that, Mark. That would make sense. Sorry, that was probably just me being thick and not picking that up. The same probably holds for The Big Sky's Supreme spirit power.
It'd be very definitely late game, but combining Owl or Twin's supreme spirit powers would probably be what I'd be tempted to use. Presumably you could use Dual Identity to paralyse just one of your selves and use the other to do all that moving nonsense.
Oh, and the other thing is: Can you combine it with Demon Lantern's Wisp Walker ability to still 'move'?
You can probably tell I'm trying to spot some sort of weakness in the paralysis description now. The double spirit bonus is useful and having some sort of bypass of the paralysis, even if it's as cumbersome as this.
I'd love to see a combo where you paralyse yourself with Waxworks and another character picks you up and uses you as a weapon. I have no idea how any of your spirit powers would interact with someone doing that, but it'd be hilarious if you could apply all of your spirit powers on the attacks they made with you.
...Is it okay for me to keep posting here about harrowed medium even though playtest is well and truly over? Is it still maybe helpful for when the full harrowed medium does come out?
I'm sorry if any of this has come up before; it's a big thread and I haven't read the whole lot of it yet.
Question: How does The Cricket's Treasure at the End interact with the Dimensional Agility feat? Assuming you do something like take 13 levels of monk to get Abundant Step and then dip into Medium for a single level.
I'd hope it doesn't work for some reason, because otherwise you get crazy things like using Abundant Step to move 920 feet and taking a single attack with +46 to hit and +92 to damage. Can't see anything with how it's written to stop it yet, short of saying teleporting doesn't count as moving.
Luckily Teleport doesn't give you fine enough control to have someone else teleport you 1,400 miles before you use your readied action to attack with +369,600 to hit and +739,200 to damage (Grumble grumble imperial measurements grumble)
Question: How does The Cricket's Treasure at the End interact with the Dimensional Agility feat? Assuming you do something like take 13 levels of monk to get Abundant Step and then dip into Medium for a single level.
I'd hope it doesn't work for some reason, because otherwise you get crazy things like using Abundant Step to move 920 feet and taking a single attack with +46 to hit and +92 to damage. Can't see anything with how it's written to stop it yet, short of saying teleporting doesn't count as moving.
Luckily Teleport doesn't give you fine enough control to have someone else teleport you 1,400 miles before you use your readied action to attack with +369,600 to hit and +739,200 to damage (Grumble grumble imperial measurements grumble)
Yeah, I think you actually have to manually traverse the distance. You've got to earn your treasure.
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You'd want to hope so, or that would be horrendous.
Even so, you can still do some crazy things if you fiddle around a little with that. An Awakened Cheetah Medium could be pretty horrendous. Not quite so bad on a Dragon Medium, but enough to make some of those flyby attacks pretty painful.
Which I suppose raises another question: As it is, Cricket just says 'movement speed' is increased, leaving open the question of which type of movement speed. Is it all of them? Since it mentions difficult terrain it's probably intended to be just land, but as it's written it could be considered all speeds.
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More general questions and thoughts:
Most of the medium bonuses are untyped, so presumably they stack, even if you do strange things. For example, using The Empty Throne to give the same seance boon as one of your other spirits. Or if you've got 10 mediums who all pick the same spirit to give a huge bonus to something. I'm aware you're aware of Empty Throne being very good for seance boons, but I can really see large numbers of mediums quickly making things get really out of hand.
In the same vein, heading back to The Lost, if for some reason you have 10 level 4 mediums all using the Lost, are they a horrendous force for confusion? If they stack, you can potentially have +30% on confusion rolls! (or +60% if Lost is being improved as Mark suggests it is) Unlikely to catch something in the aura of that many of them, but that's still scary enough that it would make a good encounter at some stage.
I checked up on the confusion spell because it came up in my last session, and something cool I noticed is that once you're confused, if something attacks you, you automatically attack it on your next turn if you're still confused. If this applies to The Lost, and doing this counts as rolling "Attack nearest creature", then suddenly the Lost actually looks... pretty good. It starts being a good, if risky option instead of being awkward. If that's how it's intended, I'd definitely highlight that when the final comes out.
Bladed Dash could be a fun spell to couple with Cyclone. It does require at least 4 levels in Magus/Bard to pull off, but I guess if you were going to do that anyway...
Getting into the realms of really strange: if you've got a level 18 Medium, what happens if you give another Medium a spirit with Astral Conduit? I guess rules as written there's no special interaction, but it feels like there should be something. Since technically you can get someone to 4 influence like this (though why they'd let you is another matter) at the very least having them count towards alignment/abilities as well would be nice.
Basic summary of all this: Medium's untyped bonuses might be a problem if you have lots of Mediums.
EDIT: Checking up on those first two, shared seance and Mad World are both supernatural effects, so I don't think multiple instances of either stack. Sort of like how other spells don't stack if it's doing the same thing. Sorry about that. Confusion thing might still work though.
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Mad World's count as a STR spirit when you roll "attack nearest creature" seems fairly specific, but I would love, LOVE, for it to count when you go on a murder spree of self defense.
After seeing the OA medium, I still want the concept versatility of the Harrowed version. And I'm quite attached to the idea of having my spirits's harrow cards laid out in front of me as I'm playing. Sure, you could do that with the OA medium, especially with the relic channeler archetype (this Trickster spirit was LE in life, so he's associated with The Avalanche card), but it doesn't have the same visceral connectivity.
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Hey Mark, are the spirit bonuses printed in OA standard going forward? Speaking in relation to the harrow medium of course. I have the same curiosity concerning Spirit Surge.
What I would like to do is jury-rig the playtest medium to incorporate the new material.
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That sounds like a cool idea! It sounds like it's different enough to be a potentially tough job, but I'm up for using my limited experience to help out in whatever way I can to try and combine the two.
I'll probably be using my playtest Medium in a campaign for a while yet, so I'll be able to give some input on how the adaptations are going if it goes ahead.
I think I'm imagining Harrowed Medium becoming something along the lines of an Alternate Class like Ninja or Samurai. There will probably be enough things to tinker with that the one-to-one conversion of an archetype won't be easy.
Lost: If the murder spree of self defence thing is too good for the lesser spirit power, I'd think that putting it in with the intermediate would be suitable. Not thematically with that name, but it does gives you a reason to trance Lost at lower levels and makes it slightly more satisfying than being slightly hard to find with Divination magic.
I do feel that that's something that needs to make it in though, even if it's not right away.
Hey Mark, are the spirit bonuses printed in OA standard going forward? Speaking in relation to the harrow medium of course. I have the same curiosity concerning Spirit Surge.
What I would like to do is jury-rig the playtest medium to incorporate the new material.
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean will the Harrowed medium, the spirit bonuses will be smaller because he (maybe she, who knows what the art will be?) will eventually have more spirits around at once.
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean will the Harrowed medium, the spirit bonuses will be smaller because he (maybe she, who knows what the art will be?) will eventually have more spirits around at once.
To give an example:
Playtest: STR spirits add their spirit bonus to attack and damage rolls.
OA: STR spirits add their spirit bonus to attack, non-magical damage, STR skill checks, STR checks, and Fort saves.
So what you're saying is that the Harrowed Medium is basically keeping the playtest bonuses above. That works for me, stacking spirit bonuses added a lot of customization.
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That sounds like a cool idea! It sounds like it's different enough to be a potentially tough job, but I'm up for using my limited experience to help out in whatever way I can to try and combine the two.
I'll probably be using my playtest Medium in a campaign for a while yet, so I'll be able to give some input on how the adaptations are going if it goes ahead.
I think I'm imagining Harrowed Medium becoming something along the lines of an Alternate Class like Ninja or Samurai. There will probably be enough things to tinker with that the one-to-one conversion of an archetype won't be easy.
That may be true, I'll post what I come up with soon.
Lost: If the murder spree of self defence thing is too good for the lesser spirit power, I'd think that putting it in with the intermediate would be suitable. Not thematically with that name, but it does gives you a reason to trance Lost at lower levels and makes it slightly more satisfying than being slightly hard to find with Divination magic.
I do feel that that's something that needs to make it in though, even if it's not right away.
Thematically, the ability would look best in Insanity Defense. In my opinion, Lost Identity is a great way to play well with others, since this sort of character is leaning toward CE anyway. My biggest problem is with Babble, but it's nice having something to make babbling not suck so much, aside from Azata's Whimsy.
I got distracted by the new Occultist, but I've been thinking that the major improvements on the playtest Medium are thus: adding Surge, the Medium spell list (and Knacks), and the increased influence limit. Not sure about the influence penalties, but probably. Still considering the Haunt Channeler and other traditional medium powers.
Fleshed out my character concept for the Cyclone/Lost using some of the new Medium stuff.
Turns out, Surge and Trance share the same level slots, so I dropped Surge, since Trance is a big part of the Harrowed build. Didn't increase to the new influence limit either, because it's easier not to. I also didn't see room for the spirit channeling abilities, but I'll keep working on it as the character progresses.
From what I've seen so far, it's a fairly tight ship, and I expect the voyage to have few troubles.
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The Medium is a wonderful class in terms of flavour. The idea of the six mythic paths is excellent. I really loved the Binder in 3.5 and, so, I was anxiously awaiting for the Pathfinder version (or something similar).
Although, I'm struggling with the rule forcing the Medium to bond with spirits only in certain "places". For example, I'm actually playing Kingmaker Adventure Path. How can I only think to bond with a spirit in the wilderness?! How can I find a library or school in a little village to bond to the archmage spirit or where I can find walls or forts or gates when I'm exploring a forest or climbing a mountain!?
My point is that if you are playing an urban campaign, the Medium is enjoyable. But away from the civilization there are obviously difficulties to bond with any kind of spirit. It kind of bothers me because the class is a "generalist", it can fulfill any role but if I can't contact the necessary spirits in most occasions, the Medium becomes almost pointless.
At the top of this, there are no dedicated feats except "Spirit Focus" and this make me think that the class was quickly rewritten with no attention to little details that make the difference.
Maybe I'm Wrong, maybe the Medium was intended only for an urban campaign. I just wanted to offer my point of view and constructive criticism. :-D
Sorry for my poor english!!!
There are two ways to deal with this, excluding GM leniency, at the moment. First is the Relic Channeler archetype, which will let you channel whomever you want, wherever. The second, at least for more nature-oriented campaigns, is the Kami Medium, who channels spirits in less-civilized areas. It is however, unfortunate that the Medium almost requires one of these two archetypes in non-urban-focused campaigns.