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In that particular instance I'd probably go for the 20 str 16 con every time given the choice between the two. Its kind of a personal thing but for me not hitting is way worse than being more killable in the sense that making my abilities go off or otherwise do something is fun to me. Having a lower strength fighter is less fun for me because of missing with attacks more than anything else. (disregarding ways to hit with things other than strength.) Missing is probably the worst feeling in the game if that's the main thing you do.
Thanks a lot. Me too, actually. So what if there was a third option for your 10th level fighter:
1) As before 20 Str, 16 Con
2) As before 16 Str, 20 Con
3) 16 Str, 20 Con, 20 incurable nonlethal damage, +2 to hit, +4 to damage.
Compared to option 1 (the one we both picked), option 3 does 1 more damage, same to-hit, with 2 more Fort save, same hp before going unconscious but a much bigger buffer before death (both the 20 nonlethal and then 4 more from higher Con) but has lower carry capacity and 2 lower CMD.
I see the point in the Str 16 Con 20 comparison. It's a fair trade, just like if you switched both. However, If it's a fair trade, shouldn't it be boosted to an advantage? I mean, it's a major class feature, like favored target from Slayer, it should end up being much better than not having it.
I see the point in the Str 16 Con 20 comparison. It's a fair trade, just like if you switched both. However, If it's a fair trade, shouldn't it be boosted to an advantage? I mean, it's a major class feature, like favored target from Slayer, it should end up being much better than not having it.
Well, if it's a fair trade if you just sit around burning yourself for no gain except activating FtB, then what about if you burn yourself for a good reason? That becomes your advantage. :)
I see the point in the Str 16 Con 20 comparison. It's a fair trade, just like if you switched both. However, If it's a fair trade, shouldn't it be boosted to an advantage? I mean, it's a major class feature, like favored target from Slayer, it should end up being much better than not having it.Well, if it's a fair trade if you just sit around burning yourself for no gain except activating FtB, then what about if you burn yourself for a good reason? That becomes your advantage. :)
Indeed, however, the lasting bonus should be better than the lasting penalty. Things like natural armor, element resistance, or greater damage bonus maybe.
I am extremely excited to try out my Geokineticist and pumping up DR to get FtB seem completely worth it. Adding +2 damage per FTB is icing on the cake as far as I am concerned.
In that particular instance I'd probably go for the 20 str 16 con every time given the choice between the two. Its kind of a personal thing but for me not hitting is way worse than being more killable in the sense that making my abilities go off or otherwise do something is fun to me. Having a lower strength fighter is less fun for me because of missing with attacks more than anything else. (disregarding ways to hit with things other than strength.) Missing is probably the worst feeling in the game if that's the main thing you do.Thanks a lot. Me too, actually. So what if there was a third option for your 10th level fighter:
1) As before 20 Str, 16 Con
2) As before 16 Str, 20 Con
3) 16 Str, 20 Con, 20 incurable nonlethal damage, +2 to hit, +4 to damage.
Compared to option 1 (the one we both picked), option 3 does 1 more damage, same to-hit, with 2 more Fort save, same hp before going unconscious but a much bigger buffer before death (both the 20 nonlethal and then 4 more from higher Con) but has lower carry capacity and 2 lower CMD.
In that case options 1 and 3 are comparable to me, at least at first glance. The main thing I'm gaining is +1 damage and trading Fort for carrying capacity, CMD/CMB, and hit to two skills I may or may not have. Fort is generally a very desirable save but since we're talking about Fighters I probably would rarely take option 3 since Fortitude is already a good save and +3 to it would be 'good enough' for me. I don't value Fortitude pound for pound with CMD, carrying capacity and the two skill checks at the same time. Another thing I'd consider is that Str would probably grant me more feat opportunities (thus more things to do and thus more fun) than Con so I'd be reluctant to trade the two, but I assume that we're not considering things like that in this example. About the only thing that would make me choose otherwise is if I knew that Swim/Climb were not going to be worth it or if nobody tracks carrying capacity.
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In that particular instance I'd probably go for the 20 str 16 con every time given the choice between the two. Its kind of a personal thing but for me not hitting is way worse than being more killable in the sense that making my abilities go off or otherwise do something is fun to me. Having a lower strength fighter is less fun for me because of missing with attacks more than anything else. (disregarding ways to hit with things other than strength.) Missing is probably the worst feeling in the game if that's the main thing you do.The big question now is, do you recognise the irony?
You put the extra points into Str in the fighter. In the Kineticist, you put them into Con, and then TRANSFER them over to Dex and Str with FtB. Same end result, but you "feel" as though you're causing yourself the damage now, so it must be worse than if you'd never had that HP in the first place. It's literally psychological. You get far more out of putting those two points into Con with the Kineticist, and then moving them over to your Attack and Damage, because you also got a defense boost and buffed your Kinetic Form or used a Nova attack, or whatever else you did that caused the FtB to activate in the first place. The point is, those extra 4 points in Con were more useful to the Kineticist than the same 2 points in Str.
Since the fighter has to choose to Permanently Lose 1 HP per Level in Exchange for 1 to hit and 1.5 to Damage at the start of the game, does that make it less painful than the Burn mechanic? Only if you choose to look at it that way.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
Yes, the to-hit advantage comes out to around the same. Sort of. Since the Fighter ALSO has an attack bonus raising class feature.
Which is the problem.
Every class in the game has attributes, and class abilities. Some need certain attributes to access their class abiities.
The Kineticist, however, SACRFICES his attributes for class abilities to bring himself up to the same baseline point other classes are with JUST attributes.
This whole "Yeah you're putting point in Con and reallocating them into Str!" thing isn't how it's actually working.
You're putting points in Con, then shaving a good 10 points off your attribute score to buy a class feature that raises your to-hit and damage.
You're sacrificing an attribute for a class feature, or by choosing not to use it, sacrificing a class feature for an attribute.
Leaving you with a net loss of SOMETHING another class will have over you.
This class' main mechanic infuriates me to use, since I'm not like this vocal minority of people who have a probem with using resources. And I don't think they have as big a problem with it as they claim, or they probably would have left this game built entirely around (in many cases) resource management a long time ago.
If nobody used potions in games, designers would have removed them a long time ago. This tells me that most people don't have a problem with resources.
The funny part about this to me is this IS a resource. A very precious resource that has more consequences than you simply not having access to it for the rest of the day or until you find another one.
Essentially, you're turning a renewable resource (HP) into a nonrenewable resource. This is the exact opposite of the logic people like MPL are saying they run by. What if you need that HP for a boss battle? I can assure you it will make a much bigger difference than whether or not you used that potion.
In that case options 1 and 3 are comparable to me, at least at first glance. The main thing I'm gaining is +1 damage and trading Fort for carrying capacity, CMD/CMB, and hit to two skills I may or may not have. Fort is generally a very desirable save but since we're talking about Fighters I probably would rarely take option 3 since Fortitude is already a good save and +3 to it would be 'good enough' for me. I don't value Fortitude pound for pound with CMD, carrying capacity and the two skill checks at the same time. About the only thing that would make me choose otherwise is if I knew that Swim/Climb were not going to be worth it or if nobody tracks carrying capacity.In that particular instance I'd probably go for the 20 str 16 con every time given the choice between the two. Its kind of a personal thing but for me not hitting is way worse than being more killable in the sense that making my abilities go off or otherwise do something is fun to me. Having a lower strength fighter is less fun for me because of missing with attacks more than anything else. (disregarding ways to hit with things other than strength.) Missing is probably the worst feeling in the game if that's the main thing you do.Thanks a lot. Me too, actually. So what if there was a third option for your 10th level fighter:
1) As before 20 Str, 16 Con
2) As before 16 Str, 20 Con
3) 16 Str, 20 Con, 20 incurable nonlethal damage, +2 to hit, +4 to damage.
Compared to option 1 (the one we both picked), option 3 does 1 more damage, same to-hit, with 2 more Fort save, same hp before going unconscious but a much bigger buffer before death (both the 20 nonlethal and then 4 more from higher Con) but has lower carry capacity and 2 lower CMD.
Makes sense. As an aside, you'd actually still get CMB, just not CMD. Also, what about the 24 hit point death-prevention cushion that 3 has over 1? (that is, 3 takes 24 more lethal damage to kill, though they take equal amounts of lethal damage to knock out). In my games, at least, that would be a pretty big factor. I'm with you with 1 over 2, and I agree that 1 and 3 are close, though I'd give the edge to 3 myself.
In any case, as you probably noticed, the comparisons are more-or-less applicable to kineticist and burn.
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hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
If you take nonlethal damage, you may attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC equal to 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt) to reduce that damage by half. The Endurance feat grants a +4 bonus on this saving throw.
Edit:
same for the Flagellant Feat
You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against pain effects. Also, you suffer no adverse effect when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, and you become staggered when your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points. You never fall unconscious due to nonlethal damage.
hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
It wouldn't. It cannot be healed, reduced, redirected, or otherwise mitigated by any form of resistance, immunity, or natural or magical healing.
In that particular instance I'd probably go for the 20 str 16 con every time given the choice between the two. Its kind of a personal thing but for me not hitting is way worse than being more killable in the sense that making my abilities go off or otherwise do something is fun to me. Having a lower strength fighter is less fun for me because of missing with attacks more than anything else. (disregarding ways to hit with things other than strength.) Missing is probably the worst feeling in the game if that's the main thing you do.Thanks a lot. Me too, actually. So what if there was a third option for your 10th level fighter:
1) As before 20 Str, 16 Con
2) As before 16 Str, 20 Con
3) 16 Str, 20 Con, 20 incurable nonlethal damage, +2 to hit, +4 to damage.
Compared to option 1 (the one we both picked), option 3 does 1 more damage, same to-hit, with 2 more Fort save, same hp before going unconscious but a much bigger buffer before death (both the 20 nonlethal and then 4 more from higher Con) but has lower carry capacity and 2 lower CMD.
I like your argument and it is something like I wanted to say before anyways. I like the buff to damage too, but I will note that buffing damage in particular further incentivizes builds based around iterative attacks (like the already all-powerful kinetic blade touch attack build). It also makes the quicken bonus even more attractive relative to using composite blasts (which may be less of a problem but I am not sure how precarious you think the balance is between various blasting attack options).
On a tangent:
Isn't kinetic blade a problem? Or am I just crazy?
I think I would be more comfortable with kinetic blade and kinetic wip if they were cordoned behind composite blasts so you could not spam them (like you can make blizzard swords but not wind swords). Or alternately, you could just make them composite blasts (they could be a combination of any element and aether and/or any element with itself, maybe). I don't know if that is a great solution but it came to mind.
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It wouldn't. It cannot be healed, reduced, redirected, or otherwise mitigated by any form of resistance, immunity, or natural or magical healing.hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
hmm ok, what about Flagellant? since it dosnt heal, reduce, redirect or migrate it?
Mark has already said he's looking at options to raise HP and Damage,
I am most definitely looking at my options to raise damage.
But as I've said a few times, I am looking at options that would have similar effects to raising hp. One of those is just doing more hp, but that doesn't mean I'll choose that one.
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Makes sense. As an aside, you'd actually still get CMB, just not CMD. Also, what about the 24 hit point death-prevention cushion that 3 has over 1? (that is, 3 takes 24 more lethal damage to kill, though they...
I see where it is comparable but does this mean that the Kineticist does not have a native means of increasing it's accuracy? If it is basically turning half the benefit of Constitution into accuracy then it's losing something supposedly equivalent to gain gain something, so it's more a reroute of resource than a buff (correct me if I'm wrong) making 3rd level kind of a dead level. I accept burn itself for what it is because I'll take it if I need to, with the fighter analogy it makes me feel like Feel the Burn is less of an ability and more of a patch.
On a tangent:
Isn't kinetic blade a problem? Or am I just crazy?
Actually, seeing what everyone talks about with the builds and such... I kind of worry that I'll basically be forced into Kinetic Blade to keep up with the rest of the party, when I want to kick back and just ranged blast.
Thread's pretty long, haven't been able to keep up entirely. Anyone got any info on this (or how it's going to pan out)?
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hmm ok, what about Flagellant? since it dosnt heal, reduce, redirect or migrate it?It wouldn't. It cannot be healed, reduced, redirected, or otherwise mitigated by any form of resistance, immunity, or natural or magical healing.hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
I'm pretty sure that feat would work and be awesome with the Kineticist. If you have a ring of ferocious action it even would let you to overcome being at low health a couple times a day.
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hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
Edit:
same for the Flagellant Feat** spoiler omitted **
The Flagellant Feat seems really important to note. Either having something like that available as a Kineticist Feat without the God restriction, or somehow preventing Kineticists from using it, seems necessary if we're to avoid a disproportionate (and inappropriate) number of LN Zon-Kuthon following Kineticists in PFS (and anywhere else GMs permit it).
I mean...2 Feats for the equivalent of an easy 35 HP or so that you're staggered while using at 7th level? Yeah, who wouldn't take that? Or at least consider it?
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I'm pretty sure that feat would work and be awesome with the Kineticist. If you have a ring of ferocious action it even would let you to overcome being at low health a couple times a day.hmm ok, what about Flagellant? since it dosnt heal, reduce, redirect or migrate it?It wouldn't. It cannot be healed, reduced, redirected, or otherwise mitigated by any form of resistance, immunity, or natural or magical healing.hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
thats what im thinking too, lol i just got the idea of a gothic Pryo guy with piercings and stuff and burning folks with hell fire XD haha
hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
Edit:
same for the Flagellant Feat** spoiler omitted **
The Flagellant Feat seems really important to note. Either having something like that available as a Kineticist Feat without the God restriction, or somehow preventing Kineticists from using it, seems necessary if we're to avoid a disproportionate (and inappropriate) number of LN Zon-Kuthon following Kineticists in PFS (and anywhere else GMs permit it).
I mean...2 Feats for the equivalent of an easy 35 HP or so that you're staggered while using at 7th level? Yeah, who wouldn't take that? Or at least consider it?
Yeah, I am looking into Flagellant. Wouldn't want to see the already-unfortunate influx of Urgathoan alchemists due to that book start to be in competition with Kuthite kineticists.
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hmm something i just came across, how would Endure Pain feat work with the nonlethal damage?
** spoiler omitted **
Edit:
same for the Flagellant Feat** spoiler omitted **
The Flagellant Feat seems really important to note. Either having something like that available as a Kineticist Feat without the God restriction, or somehow preventing Kineticists from using it, seems necessary if we're to avoid a disproportionate (and inappropriate) number of LN Zon-Kuthon following Kineticists in PFS (and anywhere else GMs permit it).
I mean...2 Feats for the equivalent of an easy 35 HP or so that you're staggered while using at 7th level? Yeah, who wouldn't take that? Or at least consider it?
yeah thats what i was thinking, i was serching the Archives of Nethys for nonlethal feat stuff and came across it, and fuigured "i so have to share this" lol but true that it takes two feats and could lead to a bunch of zon kineticists its also true that it doesnt come online till 7th lv wich is cool, cuase thats when you get the composite blasts and could make a great ranged blaster lol
Mark has already said he's looking at options to raise HP and Damage,I am most definitely looking at my options to raise damage.
But as I've said a few times, I am looking at options that would have similar effects to raising hp. One of those is just doing more hp, but that doesn't mean I'll choose that one.
There is fencing grace now, though. So all the world is mad.
As for extra health options: wouldn't an obvious solution be some kind of temporary hit point ability keyed to your Feel the Burn bonus? Like: every time you use a blast or other kineticist ability, you gain temporary hit points equal to twice your FtB bonus (which would stack with bonuses from aetheric defense). Elemental resistances and damage reductions would be solid avenues as well.
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Well, the idea of creating a feat mirrors Flagellant, without the deity restriction, but maybe an additional feat, sounds fair.
Personally, if I was making a God-neutral version, I'd have it only apply to nonlethal damage (ie: not give the bonus vs. pain) and maybe have a minimum Kineticist level instead of minimum character level. No need for additional Feat prerequisites.
Oh yeah, full disclosure on where my biases lie; I made a kineticist at 5th and 10th level and my Con was 14 and 16 respectively. I felt little incentive to increase Con past 16 and just avoided allowing saving throws. I also avoided burn until I needed it, treating it like emergency spell slots.
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I agree with Malwing. I can live with burn, I just don't want it tied to my ability to hit. Every other ability that requires burn you can mitigate or you can not use it. The 'but it lasts all day!' argument really doesn't matter to me. How good or bad the effect is has NOTHING to do with the forced nature of the ability. FtB could add your level to hit, damage, resistances, saves and anything else you wanted to add and I still wouldn't want to HAVE to use it.
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i defitnally wouldnt mind a sort of copy of Flagellant minus the deity restriction, i am glad i found that feat and brought it up lol, i hope that the kineticist isnt just up and banned from taking the feat if we dont get a new one minus the deity restriction, cuase this type of feat or something similar could seriously help them and lay to bed (personally) the problem with Burn
As an aside, for players who want to avoid burn altogether, touch attacks work particularly well with that build.
When I said I'm looking into Flagellant, if I were you, I would not expect that to mean from the direction of Flagellant feats for everyone.
oh man lmao i just had the coolest thought, i can pitcure a pryokineticist smoking and the taking the cig and fliping it towards the bad guy and just erupting into a fireball headed towards the guys face hehe lmao so many cool options for the kineticist XD
Wait til you see the new wild talents (in August)—the "headed towards the guy's face" part makes me think you would like one of them in particular for that image! :)
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How about we create an Alternate Burn mechanics, since a lot of focus and debate is on how the Burn mechanic works. Make it like how the Alternative Channel works (reducing the initial effect to get another desired effect), or like an alternate mechanic (like the Investigator and the Sleuth Investigator).
If we create more options to the mechanic, rather than creating a single option, it can possibly please most people taking a look at the class.
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oh man lmao i just had the coolest thought, i can pitcure a pryokineticist smoking and the taking the cig and fliping it towards the bad guy and just erupting into a fireball headed towards the guys face hehe lmao so many cool options for the kineticist XDWait til you see the new wild talents (in August)—the "headed towards the guy's face" part makes me think you would like one of them in particular for that image! :)
oh man now i cant wait lmao XD and all this goodness coming out right near my birthday man i love you guys/gals at Paizo!! :D
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So... I think my concern got a little lost, recent as it was. Very active thread and don't have the time to search through 2k+ posts.
Are my kineticists going to be forced into kinetic blade and iteratives to contribute damage to the party? Much as I like the idea, some of the concepts I've got in mind are more artillery than melee. Which, from what I've managed to grasp earlier in the thread, is a sub-par option? Particularly with non-touch blasts?
As an aside, for players who want to avoid burn altogether, touch attacks work particularly well with that build.
LOL So not liking burn means 1/2 the abilities are a no-go since I can't hit with them? That's not exactly getting me excited about the final product... :(
As an aside, for players who want to avoid burn altogether, touch attacks work particularly well with that build.
I tried this, but it does make lvl 3 a dead level. Any chance of replacing Feel the Burn with something else and making it a Wild Talent? Or at the very least an archetype that replaces it?
Otherwise I'm kinda with Graystone.
For the Flagellant feat, you could fix that feat for the Kineticist by adding a line to the Burn feature along the lines of something like, "When the non-lethal damage from accruing Burn reaches your current hit points, you fall unconscious even if you otherwise wouldn't."
I don't know any other ramifications of how that line would effect the game, but it's worth noting that it would prevent Flagellant being a "must have" feat for Kineticists.
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Mark, have you considered adding more utility to the Feel the Burn mechanic? For example, for each increase in Feel the Burn, the Kineticist overcomes 5 points of energy resistance on her elemental blasts or lowers damage reduction by 2 points per increase on her physical blasts.
Might make the FtB bonus 'more worth it' if it did more than just add to accuracy and damage.
As an aside, for players who want to avoid burn altogether, touch attacks work particularly well with that build.
So geokinetics need burn more than electrokinetics, that seems weird to me since flavour wise the energy based stuff seems to fit burn much more than rocks.
As an aside, for players who want to avoid burn altogether, touch attacks work particularly well with that build.LOL So not liking burn means 1/2 the abilities are a no-go since I can't hit with them? That's not exactly getting me excited about the final product... :(
As I was saying: you use ranged touch attacks in the morning and touch attacks at night. The real trick is actually having both in your repertoire at the levels you need it.
On that note:
Hey. Can I request that force blast have its burn cost reduced to one? If I want to build a full aether kineticist as it stands, I never get a consistent touch attack. I know that force damage is the bomb dot com as far as damage types go, but all the other composite blasts are doing double its damage more or less (which is likely going to be a better prospect than ignoring some random avenue of damage reduction in most cases).
Pure rock guys are going to be looking at the same problem. Maybe they could get an acidic touch blast?
Indeed, however, the lasting bonus should be better than the lasting penalty. Things like natural armor, element resistance, or greater damage bonus maybe.I see the point in the Str 16 Con 20 comparison. It's a fair trade, just like if you switched both. However, If it's a fair trade, shouldn't it be boosted to an advantage? I mean, it's a major class feature, like favored target from Slayer, it should end up being much better than not having it.Well, if it's a fair trade if you just sit around burning yourself for no gain except activating FtB, then what about if you burn yourself for a good reason? That becomes your advantage. :)
Surprise! This is exactly what the defensive boosts do. You max out Feel the Burn by increasing your defensive talents, which means AC for water (good) and DR for earth (really good). Air is a little mediocre and fire is hardly worth using, but hey, fire is kinda crap in general in the current iteration so I expect that'll change.
Mark, have you considered adding more utility to the Feel the Burn mechanic? For example, for each increase in Feel the Burn, the Kineticist overcomes 5 points of energy resistance on her elemental blasts or lowers damage reduction by 2 points per increase on her physical blasts.
Might make the FtB bonus 'more worth it' if it did more than just add to accuracy and damage.
Oh god if there were wild talents that interacted with FtB in a significant way I'd be more on board.
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For the Flagellant feat, you could fix that feat for the Kineticist by adding a line to the Burn feature along the lines of something like, "When the non-lethal damage from accruing Burn reaches your current hit points, you fall unconscious even if you otherwise wouldn't."
I don't know any other ramifications of how that line would effect the game, but it's worth noting that it would prevent Flagellant being a "must have" feat for Kineticists.
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Mark, have you considered adding more utility to the Feel the Burn mechanic? For example, for each increase in Feel the Burn, the Kineticist overcomes 5 points of energy resistance on her elemental blasts or lowers damage reduction by 2 points per increase on her physical blasts.
Might make the FtB bonus 'more worth it' if it did more than just add to accuracy and damage.
wouldnt that be basically like say to a barbarian "no matter what you will always be fatuiged after a rage, nothing you take can stop that" just personally thats how something like that comes off, but thats just me, other folks will no doubt say that a feat like flagellant is OP for a kineticist, but is it really? your still staggerd right? wich means either a move or standard action, so no reducing the burn by move action, i mean it really wouldnt be that bad for them to have a feat like flagellant, at least in opinion lol
Surprise! This is exactly what the defensive boosts do. You max out Feel the Burn by increasing your defensive talents, which means AC for water (good) and DR for earth (really good). Air is a little mediocre and fire is hardly worth using, but hey, fire is kinda crap in general in the current iteration so I expect that'll change.Indeed, however, the lasting bonus should be better than the lasting penalty. Things like natural armor, element resistance, or greater damage bonus maybe.I see the point in the Str 16 Con 20 comparison. It's a fair trade, just like if you switched both. However, If it's a fair trade, shouldn't it be boosted to an advantage? I mean, it's a major class feature, like favored target from Slayer, it should end up being much better than not having it.Well, if it's a fair trade if you just sit around burning yourself for no gain except activating FtB, then what about if you burn yourself for a good reason? That becomes your advantage. :)
Fire pays off with consistent Spell Resistance ignoring touch damage but that is not until you get composite specialization and that pure flame thingy and/or explosion (so level 16). I will also note that going fire, rock, fire (so you can get all your blue flame shenanigans at level 17) is pretty serviceable.
That may be too little too late for me, though.
Surprise! This is exactly what the defensive boosts do. You max out Feel the Burn by increasing your defensive talents, which means AC for water (good) and DR for earth (really good). Air is a little mediocre and fire is hardly worth using, but hey, fire is kinda crap in general in the current iteration so I expect that'll change.Indeed, however, the lasting bonus should be better than the lasting penalty. Things like natural armor, element resistance, or greater damage bonus maybe.I see the point in the Str 16 Con 20 comparison. It's a fair trade, just like if you switched both. However, If it's a fair trade, shouldn't it be boosted to an advantage? I mean, it's a major class feature, like favored target from Slayer, it should end up being much better than not having it.Well, if it's a fair trade if you just sit around burning yourself for no gain except activating FtB, then what about if you burn yourself for a good reason? That becomes your advantage. :)Fire pays off with consistent Spell Resistance ignoring touch damage but that is not until you get composite specialization and that pure flame thingy and/or explosion (so level 16). I will also note that going fire, rock, fire (so you can get all your blue flame shenanigans at level 17) is pretty serviceable.
That may be too little too late for me, though.
Would it surprise you to hear that fire's currently looking at some nice new infusions (both form and substance), all of which so far are before level 16?
As I was saying: you use ranged touch attacks in the morning and touch attacks at night. The real trick is actually having both in your repertoire at the levels you need it.
So I start with touch and end with touch? ;)
And if I build up no burn during the day? Or is I CAN'T because of damage? I'd want to build my character with the assumption that I wouldn't take ANY burn though out the day unless it was an emergency.