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Hello All-
If this is an obvious question, I'm really sorry.
For season 5 I added the Bane enchantment to my weapon versus Outsiders. It says to pick a sub type and I picked 'evil'. Is this an allowable type in PFS? Or is it too general?
The reason I ask is that I had a GM disallow it at a convention. I was totally cool with respecting the GMs decision, he is the law at the table, but I'm wondering if I did, in fact, over do it.
Thanks in advance for any and all responses.
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Outsider (air)
Outsider (chaotic)
Outsider (earth)
Outsider (evil)
Outsider (fire)
Outsider (good)
Outsider (lawful)
Outsider (native)
Outsider (water)
I do not play at PFS, but picking a "evil" as a subtype is not too general...your bane will only work against OUTSIDERS and they have to be EVIL for the bonus to work. Unless you are playing a themed adventure with this kind of foes appearing all over the place, it is a mostly a circunstancial bonus.
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well, bane says to pick subtype.
strictly techically "evil" is a subtype of outsiders as seen in the table.but i would expect variation because a lot of people, myself included, would rule that subtype for outsiders is more like: azata, angels, devils, demons, daemons, etc.
so evil has 3 subtypes: devils/daemons/demons
i dont run pfs though, so in my table people knw about this beforehand...
Makes me curious how rangers' favored enemies work at your table, because favored enemy says this:
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table below.
And the table lists outsider subtypes as being the alignment subtypes, as well as elemental subtypes and the "native" subtype.
I see no reason to think that bane was supposed to work any differently than favored enemy, since they both say to pick a subtype. And besides that, "subtype" is a defined game term with a specific meaning, and "evil" is absolutely a subtype.
Faragrim, your GM was wrong.
Yep. "Evil" is pretty much the best one to pick for most campaigns because it IS so general.
Likewise "Humanoid: Halfling" is probably the worst. =)
And humanoid human is always pretty beneficial.
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i just warned the guy that some GMs might see it that way. I've met a lot of people who do that. and i don't play pfs, but THEY do.
Said hypothetical GMs would be completely incorrect, and would be corrected by players and campaign leadership alike.
There is no ambiguity - "Evil" is absolutely and entirely a valid (and smart) choice of subtype for Bane.
As long as the OP understands that the subtype is the listing in brackets after the regular type, not the general alignment of the outsider.
A dretch demon is a CE outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar) = The ones in bold are the subtypes listed in the ranger's favored enemy: Outsiders entry. I'm not sure if one can go outside that list or not.
Outsider (evil) bane weapons would totally work on this creature.
A NE tiefling rogue is an outsider (native).
Outsider (evil) bane weapons would not work on this creature.
It's possible the GM at the convention didn't really understand bane only applying to subtypes and mistaking it for working like Holy applying to all evil creatures.
AFAIK, the only weapons to get bonuses against Evil creatures in general are Holy Weapons and the Sun Sword (which goes from +2 to +4 against Evil, an ability I call 'Scourge').
==Aelryinth
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It's really great that all of you are helping like this. I really appreciate it and it helped to clarify alot.
A side question, how do you handle something like that is plainly allowed in PFS but the GM arbitrarily 'disallows' it? I mean I don't want to round and round with him at a gaming convention table where the time is limited. I would think that would be rude to the other gamers. Any thoughts?
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A side question, how do you handle something like that is plainly allowed in PFS but the GM arbitrarily 'disallows' it? I mean I don't want to round and round with him at a gaming convention table where the time is limited. I would think that would be rude to the other gamers. Any thoughts?
Here's a general guideline:
1) When a GM says something you think is wrong, maybe they just misremembered or something, so simply state very briefly what you believe the correct rule is. If the GM says "Oh, right, forgot about that," then great! If not (like if they say "No, it works like this"), then go to step 2.
2) Assess the importance of the issue. Is it worth pausing the game over? Correcting the GM about the stacking of bless and Inspire Courage might be worth pausing for if it means hitting with the attack that prevents the TPK, but not if you're mopping up mooks and already have a 17 on the die, you know? Be sure to factor in the length of time required for discussion when making this decision; some rules are right there in black and white, while others require discussion or cross-referencing.
2a) If it's pretty significant, either ask the judge to pause for the rule for a moment, or else look it up on your own while it's not your turn (depending on the feel of the table; use your best judgment) and then show the judge the relevant rule. Don't make them do the work of looking it up; politely point to the text so all they have to do is read it.
2b) If it's really not that important, wait until a break or after the game, then show them/discuss it. Again, do the work for them, make it as convenient as possible, and be polite.
3) If, after being shown, they still insist on their version, then you must again gauge the severity: can you just game on? Or is it worth leaving the table for? Maybe it's minor enough that you just make a mental note that this is how X works at his tables from now on. Maybe it's kind of in the middle, where you're fine finishing the scenario but don't want to play (or at least play this character) at his tables in the future. Or maybe it's severe enough that it's not worth losing your only chance to play that scenario ever, so you walk. This is a decision only you can make.
4) Sometime after the game, do some research (much like you did here) to make sure you're not the one mistaken. After re-confirming that the GM was the one in error, repeat step 3 to decide whether to sit at their tables in the future.
5) If the GM was respectful and mature in hearing your appeal and simply didn't agree, then you're probably done. If they behaved poorly (such as getting offended at being questioned), or if they admit that the rule is X but they just run it differently, or are otherwise plainly violating campaign rules (not simply misinterpreting game rules), report the incident to your local VO. If that doesn't help, or if it *IS* your local VO, report to Mike Brock, the campaign coordinator.
Hope that helps!
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Just to add to what Jiggy said, as I agree with everything he said.
If a clear error by the GM resulted in substantial harm to your character (usually character death) that harm can be corrected later by the GM and/or VOs. Good GMs are willing to admit when they made an error and correct it.
Be aware that sometimes you will be wrong and the GM right. Or, at least, the issue may be unclear. I can't stress enough how important that "research" step is, no matter how clear the issue seems to you (that you refers to everybody, not the OP).
Played a scenario last week that had a demon bane weapon.
I'm not sure that should even be possible, though it's possible whoever wrote it did so erroneously. Demon is not a subtype listed in as one of the available Favored Enemy subtypes (which is the list typically used with Bane) and further Bane(Outsider(Evil)) would cover all evil outsider. Not just demons, but devils, and daemons. And any other outsiders with the evil subtype.
There would be no reason for Bane(Outsider(Demon)) to exist as it would be redundant and completely subsumed by Bane(Outsider(Evil)).
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Played a scenario last week that had a demon bane weapon.I'm not sure that should even be possible, though it's possible whoever wrote it did so erroneously. Demon is not a subtype listed in as one of the available Favored Enemy subtypes (which is the list typically used with Bane) and further Bane(Outsider(Evil)) would cover all evil outsider. Not just demons, but devils, and daemons. And any other outsiders with the evil subtype.
There would be no reason for Bane(Outsider(Demon)) to exist as it would be redundant and completely subsumed by Bane(Outsider(Evil)).
I'm not familiar with the scenario in question, but it's possible (since loot in PFS becomes available for purchase rather than simply getting it) that it has a reduced price to match the narrower ability. I seem to recall a certain special goblin-themed adventure awarding a weapon either bane (horse) or bane (dog) (can't remember which) for a lower price than what bane (animal) should cost.
But hey, unique items are unique. :)
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Why don't you allow Bane(outsider-evil)?As is "evil".never said that it wasnt.
just that at my tables i dont allow it.
as for why would someone would craft a devil-bane sword, maybe he is a demon? or a demon worshiper?
i like the bane enchantment to be more specific than that, simple as that. my players are well aware of it so no surprises for them.
in those 2 years that we are playing, this issue has come up only twice, so i don't think it impacts them a lot.
In that time, what Bane enchantments did your players buy, or what Bane weapons did they buy?
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In that time, what Bane enchantments did your players buy, or what Bane weapons did they buy?Why don't you allow Bane(outsider-evil)?As is "evil".never said that it wasnt.
just that at my tables i dont allow it.
as for why would someone would craft a devil-bane sword, maybe he is a demon? or a demon worshiper?
i like the bane enchantment to be more specific than that, simple as that. my players are well aware of it so no surprises for them.
in those 2 years that we are playing, this issue has come up only twice, so i don't think it impacts them a lot.
devil, one time, the other i cant recall
it was also kinda in the end of the campaign, and they were going to hell. so it seemed like it could be appropriate.
the only bane enchantment they use frequently is undead bane on ghost touch weapons
See, I can't understand why Bane(undead) isn't too specific but Bane(evil outsider) is.
If you were to count how many different undead creatures there are, and compare that with the number of evil outsiders, I'm pretty sure there are more kinds of undead.
If you were to gauge how likely an average party are to fight undead versus how likely they are to fight evil outsiders, I'm pretty sure that an average campaign would have more fights against undead.
If a campaign concentrates on one type of foe, how does that make that version of Bane less likely to exist? Do Human Bane weapons exist in a state of quantum uncertainty, disappearing when human opponents are most likely and appearing again when there isn't a human to be seen?
I'm not familiar with the scenario in question, but it's possible (since loot in PFS becomes available for purchase rather than simply getting it) that it has a reduced price to match the narrower ability. I seem to recall a certain special goblin-themed adventure awarding a weapon either bane (horse) or bane (dog) (can't remember which) for a lower price than what bane (animal) should cost.
But hey, unique items are unique. :)
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Have you tried the Inquisitor with an alignment based domain?
8th level, you have bane as per the inquisitor (5th), and one of the alignment specific 1/day effects. Example, Inquisitor with Law domain. Bane (Chaotic Outsider) and Axiomatic Weapon via the domain power. So you attack that chaotic outsider with 4d6 additional damage, an extra +2 modifier, and is consider Law Aligned weapon for DR/Law.
Same thing with evil domain and evil outsiders.