Hello everyone! we're playing Kingmaker AP and we have a party of 5 (but someone is always missing so it's basicly 4 all the time), our DM is an old school type DM, he likes to challenge the PCs at their upmost and throw difficult encounters all the time (APL+3, APL+4) are usual.
So far we have been doing fine with our party composition, but we have encountered one main issue: Our DM loves using stealth and ambush tactics with the enemies and we have doing pretty badly at them. 2 TPKs against a dark stalker and almost another one (he went easy on us) vs 2 wyrmsnakes.
I come to you for help in tactics that will aid us in surviving the stealthy/rogue/sneak attack/ ambush encounters that he loves to use and plays so efficiently.
Note: Our party consists of a newbie elven wizard, a human gunslinger, a dwarf warpriest (with amazing stats), a dwarf inquisitor and myself playing human battle oracle.
We're level 4 right now and are building our characters again (last session ended in a TPK vs a dark stalker using deeper darknes) so i'm looking for ways to survive these encounters.
Thanks for your help!
GLITTERDUST
DISPEL MAGIC
DAYLIGHT
Use a smoke-stick to prevent sneak attacks
Use Bell Nets
Stop sleeping outside
Use Body Decoys, and make the villain roll a heal check to know whether or not the body is alive prior to the attack
Remember that stealth is lost after the first attack
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Have one person be a diviner wizard and everyone takes lookout. Move around in a huddle of fear and paranoia.
Make sure at least one person has reasonably good perception so you might actually get a surprise round instead of your enemies.
Darkvision, Perception, and Skill Focus (Perception) for every one. The Alarm spell could help, too.
You can also set up some basic traps, such as tripwires attached to pots and such that make loud noises when someone trips them. Snares, bear traps, and the like can make approaching your camp even more difficult. Heck, even caltrops could be a boon if you hide them under some leaves.
As for Deeper Darkness, you need either Dispel Magic or Daylight to counter it, and unfortunately, you just aren't high enough level for that.
See if your GM has a reason for throwing such challenging encounters at you all the time besides "he's an old school type DM." Usually, an encounter will be designed so that you have a chance. With no way around deeper darkness, the dark stalker has a significant advantage that you can't make up.
I'm really curious about your GM's reasoning for attacking you with a Dark Stalker. The typically live deep underground, and have light blindness, so I wonder why one is just wandering around the Stolen Lands.
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What level is everyone? Deeper Darkness is a terrible thing for a low level party because the only counter to it is Daylight, and the worst part of the set up is that the Stalker can cast Deeper Darkness at will. Basically, the GM is intentionally killing your party (just checked, there are no references to dark stalkers in book 1, 2 or 3 of Kingmaker) by picking something you literally have no way of overcoming. The only other advice to negate this specific thing is a Tiefling with Fiend Sight x2. If someone wanted to go that route, I'd go Alchemist, but mostly because I like them.
Drogos wrote: What level is everyone? Deeper Darkness is a terrible thing for a low level party because the only counter to it is Daylight, and the worst part of the set up is that the Stalker can cast Deeper Darkness at will. Basically, the GM is intentionally killing your party (just checked, there are no references to dark stalkers in book 1, 2 or 3 of Kingmaker) by picking something you literally have no way of overcoming. The only other advice to negate this specific thing is a Tiefling with Fiend Sight x2. If someone wanted to go that route, I'd go Alchemist, but mostly because I like them. We're level 4th right now, with 6k starting gold. I don't know if the monster is in the AP or not but that's what i mean by 'old-school', he likes to mix things up and throw us off balance to see how we react. So far we've covered all the different challenges except those that come from stealth and night tactics.
Edit: I should note that i already have found a solution against the specific threat from the dark stalker's deeper darkness. I asked the DM if i could get a 7th level wizard to cast me a heightened continual flame. So we're past that threat at the moment, my concern mainly is that there will be other ambush tactics and i want to be prepared
Instead of trying to light the darkness, make your opponents about as blind as you are with obscuring mist and the like. This will prevent sneak attack damage.
Get guard animals with the scent ability; horses will do.
A simple Light spell combined with heighten spell metamagic can dispell even Deeper Darkness.
Heightened Awareness is a nice little buff as well. You get a +2 on Perception for 10 min/level, and when combat does start - you can dismiss it for a +4 on Initiative.
Cornielius wrote: A simple Light spell combined with heighten spell metamagic can dispell even Deeper Darkness. Except 4th level characters don't have 4th level spell slots, and really, if you're going to heighten a spell to 4th to overcome Deeper Darkness, why not make it Daylight?
If the wizard has a famiar, one with scent would help. If the famiar has alertness that is a bonus.
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Everyone make ninjas. First round, vanishing trick then run away
Challenging your players is all well and good, but make it a challenge they have a way of dealing with without paying an NPC 160 gp to make an item that, essentially, you bought only because you need a way to defeat deeper darkness. Constant TPKs, on an Adventure Path especially, have a way of really pulling away from the story, Kingmaker especially so. Once you get into Kingdom Building, having the rulers of the kingdom all wiped out carries serious ramifications for your Kingdom.
As long as everyone is having fun, keep going, but I don't think I'd enjoy this if my GM is throwing things at me that I don't actually have a chance of winning, for the sake of seeing how prepared we are or just for the sake of a challenge. YMMV.
Also, if it's only 1 attack per day, it becomes a bit more manageable, but if you're having multiple fights a day, good luck. Be ready to die a lot
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Wow, sounds like you have a Killer DM that needs to take it down a notch. A party shouldn't have to rely on buying higher level items to take on creatures that are that difficult for their level. Especially when following a published AP. It's one thing to tweak a few stats here and there to compensate for something the party is doing (super optimized fighter stomping through stuff with ease, a rogue that is a little too good at searching out traps, etc.) But...deeper darkness and multiple TPKs? He needs to calm down and remember that his job is NOT to kill players constantly.
Your wizard must take the Keep Watch spell. Period. Also, take a familiar with scent.
The Alarm spell is good. Set traps around your camp with tripwires and bells.
Blindfight for all. Seriously.
Turn the whole thing against your GM. Have everyone come from the highlands for the Highlander trait then all take stealth synergy. Stealth is a class skill for the whole party and you all take the highest roll in the group. Also, all roll up something with either darkvision or access to the Darkvision spell so light doesn't give you away.
EDIT: Smokesticks + Blindfight party wide. level the playingfield against most enemies. Give the half-orc scent.
Kamicosmos wrote: Wow, sounds like you have a Killer DM that needs to take it down a notch. A party shouldn't have to rely on buying higher level items to take on creatures that are that difficult for their level. Especially when following a published AP. It's one thing to tweak a few stats here and there to compensate for something the party is doing (super optimized fighter stomping through stuff with ease, a rogue that is a little too good at searching out traps, etc.) But...deeper darkness and multiple TPKs? He needs to calm down and remember that his job is NOT to kill players constantly. Well yeah, we recently spoke to him about these kind of challenges and that it kills the story to have all the protagonists die every few weeks. He said he will lower the difficulty, but the party is still preparing for the weakness against ambush and stealthy foes, thank you everyone for the suggestions!
There is difficulty and then there are blatant assassination attempts. It sounds like the GM is focused more on the latter. If most of the encounters are happening when the party is camped it is definitely the latter.
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