Why the heck don't Shaman get the communal versions of spells? Seems quite unfriendly...
Half-Blood Extraction is a cleric, druid, and witch spell but it's not a shaman spell...
Erm... no, no, no and NOOOOOO!!!!
Less of the moaning.... having recently looked at the Shaman in greater detail its is abundantly clear that it is massively OP.
Its ability to pinch extra spells from all manner of lists is completely beyond a joke.... and thats leaving aside all the other goodies it gets.
Be happy that your class is quite possibly the most powerful in the game and has made 3 or 4 classes virtually redundant!!!
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I agree the spell list is missing some surprising stuff...
Namely, spells that are both Cleric/Druid/Witch spells yet Shaman doesn't get.
The biggest shock seems to be the (almost-not quite) total lack of Disease options,
despite Clerics+Druids+even Witches being proficient there... Serious over sight IMHO.
"Oh hey guys, I know I told you I could fill in for healing duties at least as well as a Druid... but..."
Remove Sickness Cleric1/Druid1/Witch1
Delay Disease Cleric2/Druid2/Witch1
Contagion Cleric3/Druid3/Wizard4
Remove Disease Cleric3/Druid3/Witch3
Giant Vermin Cleric4/Druid4
Death Ward Cleric4/Druid5/Witch4
Debilitating Portent Cleric4/Witch4
Plague Carrier Cleric4/Druid4/Witch5
Poison Cleric4/Druid3/Witch4
Spellcrash... Cleric4.../Witch4... (...Lesser/-/Greater versions...)
Symbol of Slowing Cleric4/Witch4
Curse of Magic Negation Cleric5/Witch4
That's just Cleric spells also on Druid/Witch up to level 4 that I quickly found... (probably missed some, as well)
I didn't even look at Druid/Witch spells NOT on Cleric list, never mind higher level spells...
Favored Class off-list access is great, but ALL races should have viable Shamans,
and these types of spells all seem totally appropriate to be on their list...
Including these spells would simply not seem to be expanding the thematic range of the spell list.
Is Shaman REALLY meant to be this much worse at healing Disease than Druids?
Yet they do have SOME disease options, though very weak: Persistent Vigor.
Really, if there was a general guideline to allow spells shared by Cleric/Druid/Witch (at least 2?) to count as Shaman,
that would be great, and allow Shamans to make use of wide range of existing material outside of Core RPG line (i.e. Setting specific).
I agree, it makes little to no sense that the shaman list is lacking spells that both parent classes can cast, especially the disease related spells.
Also, Crashing Waves hex is useless without taking another hex to specifically get damage dealing spells with the water descriptor. Why have a hex that enhances water descriptor spells your class doesn't even possess?
I don't think this spell list was well thought out, it needs to be errata'd.
The limited ability to "snag" spells from other lists is kinda cool, but it is really limited unless you are a human or half-human and then it is only cleric spells below your spell level max. That's more about the favored class option being OP than the class being OP.
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Erm... no, no, no and NOOOOOO!!!!
Less of the moaning.... having recently looked at the Shaman in greater detail its is abundantly clear that it is massively OP.
Its ability to pinch extra spells from all manner of lists is completely beyond a joke.... and thats leaving aside all the other goodies it gets.
Be happy that your class is quite possibly the most powerful in the game and has made 3 or 4 classes virtually redundant!!!
Not everyone plays a human shaman with the lore spirit.
Even the lore spirit is pretty limited by needing high intelligence on top of high wisdom and charisma. That leaves precious little room for the physical stats.
The shaman is one of those classes that's mostly only OP if you get to have way above average stats.
I will point out that the Speaker for the Past archetype can cast Spiritual Weapon/Ally.
The Feat may have been intended for that (my Shaman took it).
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I will point out that the Speaker for the Past archetype can cast Spiritual Weapon/Ally.
The Feat may have been intended for that (my Shaman took it).
Maybe, but I'm willing to bet it had more to do with the Shaman getting its spell list changed three times during development (first it had the cleric list, then it had the druid list, then it had its own list--the current one) and the feat not getting updated accordingly.
you are kidding right?
human shaman with FCB and good charisma \ int have THE BEST spell list in the game.
But they,shamans that are not humans, still cannot remove disease and that seems strange. This is not a power issue but a issue about the list making sense.
If power is the only issue then we are good but if you want stuff to make sense the the list need a look.
Rather, classes should not be balanced around racial features. Instead, racial features should be balanced around classes.
As for Lore, classes are balanced around a certain stat range. If you allow stats well above average, then some classes are going to shine more than others. If you have the expected 15 to 20 point-buy equivalent shaman, you won't see Lore being very powerful.
Yeah, I think the issue here is less about power and more about keeping the list logical and coherent. The missing pieces are, generally, not particularly powerful spells.
Reminds me of the Witch list, but not as bad.
I admit that Spiritual Ally and communal spells seems like an oversight thematically.
However, shamans are very strong. They get the strengths of the cleric, witch, and oracle, but have almost none of their weaknesses.
What gets me (and has gotten me since 3e), is remove blindness/deafness. You may be great at healing hp, but 1 second level spell can ruin somebody until they can get this fixed. In PF, only clerics, alchemists, witches and paladins get it. Paladins can't get it until 10th level, and alchemists and witches need to get it in their spellbook/familiar. So if you don't have a cleric, you're screwed.
What gets me (and has gotten me since 3e), is remove blindness/deafness. You may be great at healing hp, but 1 second level spell can ruin somebody until they can get this fixed. In PF, only clerics, alchemists, witches and paladins get it. Paladins can't get it until 10th level, and alchemists and witches need to get it in their spellbook/familiar. So if you don't have a cleric, you're screwed.
You ever notice how everyone always forgets the warpriest exists?
But yeah, that's a nasty spell. Do note that you should be able to remove it with a Dispel Magic, which is available to almost everyone.
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What gets me (and has gotten me since 3e), is remove blindness/deafness. You may be great at healing hp, but 1 second level spell can ruin somebody until they can get this fixed. In PF, only clerics, alchemists, witches and paladins get it. Paladins can't get it until 10th level, and alchemists and witches need to get it in their spellbook/familiar. So if you don't have a cleric, you're screwed.
Actually anyone with dispel magic can remove it:
Blindness/Deafness
Duration permanent (D)
Permanent, not instantaneous, so it can be dispelled.
Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.
It was a recent and quite shocking discovery for my group.
Edit. Melkiador said it before me.
I'll reiterate that the shaman is only OP in theory. At least compared to other equally OP full casters. Pick a level and build your OP shaman, using 20 point buy and expected character level. You may find that the real world Shaman is far too MAD to do the things you want it to do.
I'll reiterate that the shaman is only OP in theory. At least compared to other equally OP full casters. Pick a level and build your OP shaman, using 20 point buy and expected character level. You may find that the real world Shaman is far too MAD to do the things you want it to do.
It's really not. Now admittedly, it is not the strongest class in the game (that's Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerers), it does have the best class spell list in the game bar none. Provided you don't actually dump INT and CHA, it's pretty easy to get spells you need even if that's just 1-2. The biggest thing here is that the spells you pick are flexible from day to day so that's effectively the *entire* Sorcerer/Wizard list (albeit not all at once). That versatility is insane especially when you stack it on top knowing the entire Shaman list, being able to add 9 new spirit magic spells each day, and can pick 18 level 1-8 spells from the Cleric list to fill in any holes (read as Paragon Surge).
Furthermore, they have access to hexes. Which realistically means access to Slumber Hex, which means access to a Save or Lose against many opponents. The Shaman's Misfortune Hex is not mind-affecting. Short of being in an antimagic field, nothing is immune to it. Also they (once again) get to pick flexible hexes each day based on what they are going up against. And that's discounting the flexible hex from potentially a third list thanks to the Spirit Talker feat.
Oh have I mentioned the 3/4 BAB, 4+ INT skills and actual class features? Oh sure, none of them are diviner wizard powerful, but still that is on top of everything else.
When it comes to best spell access in the game, Shaman is by far #1. That being said, it has no super initiative boosting class feature ala Diviner, or CHA to absolutely everything including initiative that Sorcerer and Oracle have. And again, the strongest class in the game is Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerer bar none. But that's not the same as Sorcerer being the strongest class in the game.
That being said, I come down on the side of "X years playing D&D means absolutely nothing." I know lots of players who have been playing the same amount of time as myself or longer and have far less system mastery. Not to mention "X years of D&D" isn't as important as "X years of Pathfinder." And even that probably doesn't mean anything, since there are people who think that things that are better then the Rogue are OP.
Similarly, being familiar with a thing for a long time doesn't mean you are familiar with all parts of that thing. If you only play wizards, you may not be very familiar with a clerics.
Ok, so one specific archetype combo of Sorcerer being uber =/= Sorcerers as a class being uber...
But we can conflate Racial FC bonuses with analysis of the Shaman class, and make broad claims like casting from entire Sorc/Wiz list, when that requires a 19 INT to cast all spell levels, as well as one specific Spirit.
Never mind that outside of Heavens, and to a lesser degree Life, and one specific ability of Lore (spells) and Nature (companion), the majority of Spirits are practically a waste of time...
Ok, so one specific archetype combo of Sorcerer being uber =/= Sorcerers as a class being uber...
But we can conflate Racial FC bonuses with analysis of the Shaman class, and make broad claims like casting from entire Sorc/Wiz list, when that requires a 19 INT to cast all spell levels, as well as one specific Spirit.
Never mind that outside of Heavens, and to a lesser degree Life, and one specific ability of Lore (spells) and Nature (companion), the majority of Spirits are practically a waste of time...
All you need for a 19 INT is to start with a 13 INT and get a +6 Headband of Mental Superiority which you should craft for yourself at half cost thanks to the Fetish Hex. That's super easy. Racial bonuses are very different from a very specific archetype combination being uber. You are still a default Shaman. You can compare a Human Sorcerer to a Human Shaman if you like and the Shaman is still coming out on top, when comparing defaults.
The spirits each have a handful of useful hexes and situational abilities which is good since you have the flexibility to change one of them every day. I think you are mistaken how the Arcane Enlightenment trick work, since it actually requires you to *not* pick Lore. Being able to add any 3 Sorcerer/Wizard spells to your list each day is effectively access to the whole list albeit not at once. And even if you don't want to pick Lore as your Wandering Spirit a particular day, you can still get Arcane Enlightenment via the Spirit Talker feat.
Nope, I understand how it works, rather that's exactly my point: The discussion is constrained to assuming one specific Spirit Ability precisely because any Shaman CAN get it via Wandering or (more likely) Spirit Talker, I.e. that it's THE cookie cutter build. Likewise the actual variation in base Spirit/ wandering combos is realistically very little given the imbalance of Spirits, there's just a few combos that measure up. (And Unsworn is so jacked that it is not helpful where it should be)
Sure, Fetish Hex Crafting INT boosts is great, except in PFS or when you don't have time to Craft, or when you realize dual stat or tri stat headbands start getting pricey even when crafting yourself , and that asymmetrical dual/tri headbands aren't RAW so you will need +4 or 6 across the board. And again, that MAY work in your game, but it's one more constraint, and narrow cookie cutter build, which is my whole critique,: that certain options/combos are great while others are so mediocre, that nobody really considers the clAss as such but rather the few power cOokie cutter builds.
Any how, staying on topic of the spell list... I totally agree most of the spells "missing" are not particularly powerful, albeit disease stuff is a near necessity, but that doesn't detract from that their absence is seemingly incomprehensible. About Summons, I feel dealing with extraplanar/paranormal/mystic beings and entities is totally thematic for shamans, so Summon Monster would seem highly appropriate.
Nope, I understand how it works, rather that's exactly my point: The discussion is constrained to assuming one specific Spirit Ability precisely because any Shaman CAN get it via Wandering or (more likely) Spirit Talker, I.e. that it's THE cookie cutter build. Likewise the actual variation in base Spirit/ wandering combos is realistically very little given the imbalance of Spirits, there's just a few combos that measure up. (And Unsworn is so jacked that it is not helpful where it should be)
Sure, Fetish Hex Crafting INT boosts is great, except in PFS or when you don't have time to Craft, or when you realize dual stat or tri stat headbands start getting pricey even when crafting yourself , and that asymmetrical dual/tri headbands aren't RAW so you will need +4 or 6 across the board. And again, that MAY work in your game, but it's one more constraint, and narrow cookie cutter build, which is my whole critique,: that certain options/combos are great while others are so mediocre, that nobody really considers the clAss as such but rather the few power cOokie cutter builds.
Any how, staying on topic of the spell list... I totally agree most of the spells "missing" are not particularly powerful, albeit disease stuff is a near necessity, but that doesn't detract from that their absence is seemingly incomprehensible. About Summons, I feel dealing with extraplanar/paranormal/mystic beings and entities is totally thematic for shamans, so Summon Monster would seem highly appropriate.
Um... here's the thing about Arcane Enlightnement. *ANY* Shaman can use it (except for people who actually picked Lore). There's no reason not to include it, because it is easily accessible to all Shamans.
You do realize when it comes to crafting that there *IS* a +2/4/6 to all mental stats headband right? It's called Headband of Mental Superiority and it's pretty RAW. The +2 Version will only cost you 8,000 gp to craft. To upgrade from +2 to +4 it will only cost you 24,000 gp to craft. To go from +4 to +6, it's only 45,000 gp to craft. A single day of downtime will net you 2,000 gp (you are accelerating right?) worth of progress (versus item price), which will add up very quickly. Having played a crafter in many a campaign, it's really much easier then people make it out to be.
Nope, I understand how it works, rather that's exactly my point: The discussion is constrained to assuming one specific Spirit Ability precisely because any Shaman CAN get it via Wandering or (more likely) Spirit Talker, I.e. that it's THE cookie cutter build. Likewise the actual variation in base Spirit/ wandering combos is realistically very little given the imbalance of Spirits, there's just a few combos that measure up. (And Unsworn is so jacked that it is not helpful where it should be)Um... here's the thing about Arcane Enlightnement. *ANY* Shaman can use it (except for people who actually picked Lore). There's no reason not to include it, because it is easily accessible to all Shamans.
You don't say...
You don't say...Nope, I understand how it works, rather that's exactly my point: The discussion is constrained to assuming one specific Spirit Ability precisely because any Shaman CAN get it via Wandering or (more likely) Spirit Talker, I.e. that it's THE cookie cutter build. Likewise the actual variation in base Spirit/ wandering combos is realistically very little given the imbalance of Spirits, there's just a few combos that measure up. (And Unsworn is so jacked that it is not helpful where it should be)Um... here's the thing about Arcane Enlightnement. *ANY* Shaman can use it (except for people who actually picked Lore). There's no reason not to include it, because it is easily accessible to all Shamans.
It's not "the cookie cutter build", because it's literally all builds by default. You can't *not* make a shaman with that build unless you pick Lore. My point was that it's a default feature of the class and should be discussed as such, not a "build" cookie cutter or otherwise. That's like saying "Wizards getting Scribe Scroll at level 1 is a cookie cutter build!"
You do realize when it comes to crafting that there *IS* a +2/4/6 to all mental stats headband right? It's called Headband of Mental Superiority and it's pretty RAW. The +2 Version will only cost you 8,000 gp to craft. To upgrade from +2 to +4 it will only cost you 24,000 gp to craft. To go from +4 to +6, it's only 45,000 gp to craft. A single day of downtime will net you 2,000 gp (you are accelerating right?) worth of progress (versus item price), which will add up very quickly. Having played a crafter in many a campaign, it's really much easier then people make it out to be.A headband of Mental Superiority +6 costs 144,000gp.
If you follow the guidance on the WBL table and that no more than half a character's wealth should be invested in any one item, this means this item shouldn't see play until around character level 16.
16th level full casters have access to 8th level spells. At the very next level, they're up to 9th level spells. I doubt a bit of spell flexibility is going to be game breaking for a shaman relative to all the other caster nonsense that will be going on at these levels.
Crafting rules? Breaking the WBL table by using crafting has always been an overpowered and broken aspect to the game. That's more an issue with crafting than Shaman balance, however. Regardless, you're choosing to craft a 144k item to increase spell selection... and not some other insanely powerful item.
That's why you craft it. So that you can have it well before level 16 since it only costs you 45,000 gp to upgrade from the +4 Headband you made. It's something that every Shaman can and should make. There's no reason not to include such an obvious item choice in the discussion. And you can invest as much of your wealth in an item as you want on your way up to level 16. The WBL spending is purely for creating characters at that level. It isn't a mysterious force that prevents you from crafting.
The only one that is super silly is the Spiritual Ally thing. Since you get a Feat to buff it, that you have to be a shaman to qualify for.