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Ability: "When another character attempts any check, you may display any number of blessings or weapons; for each card displayed, add 1 to the check. Return the displayed cards to your hand before you reset it."
I understand "before attempting a check" or "after attempting a check". With the above wording, we're wondering: can Oloch use his ability after a check is attempted? Is that still part of "when the character attempts it?"
No. "When another character attempts any check" means simply that when a character is going through the "attempting a check" sequence. In that sequence, the rulebook clearly states that players can use power or play cards that affect the check at a certain point in time.
Attempting a Check
Determine which skill you’re using.
Determine the difficulty.
Play cards and use powers that affect the check (optional). <---Oloch uses his power here
Assemble your dice.
Attempt the roll.
Take damage if you fail a check to defeat a monster.
Lacking something that specifies you can play it another point in time, powers and cards are always used either to "determine which skill you're using" or during "play cards and use power that affect the check."
What Hawkmoon said.
The bonus is to "the check", so only applies one time.
I think that this power needs a couple clarifications.
1. What happens if an effect causes you to reset your hand? (I think that finding a spell in the Thassilonian Library does this.)
2. Perhaps it should be 'immediately before resetting'. Otherwise: I return the cards to my hand before resetting it. Another player casts Scrying before I can rest my hand and wants help with the recharge check, so I display several cards. Now what happens? Do they go back into my hand, allowing something like this to be done again or do I draw up to full hand size and put the cards into my hand at the start of my next turn using the appropriate feat?
I hear that there will be an update to the end of turn sequence; I've been hoping for one for a long time.
Oloch seems a better fit for RotRL than S&S; right now it is easier to draw examples from that game.
I think that this power needs a couple clarifications.
1. What happens if an effect causes you to reset your hand? (I think that finding a spell in the Thassilonian Library does this.)
2. Perhaps it should be 'immediately before resetting'. Otherwise: I return the cards to my hand before resetting it. Another player casts Scrying before I can rest my hand and wants help with the recharge check, so I display several cards. Now what happens? Do they go back into my hand, allowing something like this to be done again or do I draw up to full hand size and put the cards into my hand at the start of my next turn using the appropriate feat?
I hear that there will be an update to the end of turn sequence; I've been hoping for one for a long time.
Oloch seems a better fit for RotRL than S&S; right now it is easier to draw examples from that game.
Even though it doesn't say it, I treat it as "at the end of your turn" rather than "before your reset" since that happens once, at a specific time and doesn't allow exploits like #2. I wouldn't be surprised if it got errataed that way, just like Seltyiel's recharge power.
Yeah. That is how I've been treating it too, as "at the end of your turn." In fact, I read it so quickly I was thinking that was what it said. I think it is pretty clear that is the intention.
Yeah. That is how I've been treating it too, as "at the end of your turn." In fact, I read it so quickly I was thinking that was what it said. I think it is pretty clear that is the intention.I would disagree. I'm fairly certain they want you to be able to discard the cards in question during reset, if you wish.
Edit: in fact I'm absolutely certain. If you recover them at the end of your turn, that would be AFTER you reset...so you would be over your max hand size. There's no way that's what they intended. "Before resetting your hand" clearly means AFTER "end of turn" actions, so nothing can be done by anyone between collecting and resetting.
But remember, "end of the turn effects" are applied during the "reset your hand" step of the turn.
Reset Your Hand: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn; if a power allows or directs you to not reset your hand, you must still apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn.
So even if it did say "at the end of your turn", you can discard the cards after you pick them up, because you do those "end of the turn" effects before you discard and/or draw back to your handsize.
When I assumed it said "at the end of your turn", that would mean I was treating it as an "end of the turn effect" just like recharging Incendiary Cloud or Amiri's movement power. It would be just another "end of the turn effect." So in my mind I was doing this:
Advance the blessings deck.
Give a card
Move
Explore
Try to close a location
Reset your hand
—apply end-of-turn effects <----Return cards to hand here.
-then discard any number of cards;
-finally, discard down to or draw up to your hand size.
End your turn.
If we take it literally, he'd have to do it before the step of his turn. Then it would be this:
Advance the blessings deck.
Give a card
Move
Explore
Try to close a location
XXXX<----Return cards to hand here
Reset your hand
-apply end-of-turn effects
-then discard any number of cards;
-finally, discard down to or draw up to your hand size.
End your turn.
They are virtually the same thing. In both cases, I have them back in my hand before I discard and/or draw cards. And in my assumed reading, there is no chance to play cards like scrying or anything else. There are only two differences:
1. In my "assumed" version, I can choose the order in which I apply those effects, so I might have some benefit by not applying them before another "end of the turn effect".
2. There are times when you reset your hand besides the point near the end of your turn. Some cards can make you reset your hand and you can continue with your turn. Taken literally, Oloch's power would let him pick the cards up then too.
If you want it to be this:
Advance the blessings deck.
Give a card
Move
Explore
Try to close a location
Reset your hand
-apply end-of-turn effects
XXXX<----Return cards to hand here
-then discard any number of cards;
-finally, discard down to or draw up to your hand size.
End your turn.
Then perhaps something like "after applying all other end of the turn effects" would be best. But I don't see how, with the current turn sequence, "before you reset your hand" can be take as "after applying end of the turn effects."
Yay! I still believe that the Oloch 'exploit' needs to be addressed. (The workaround is, of course, 'don't do it'.)
I don't believe that exploit is possible. The rules say
Roll the dice and add up their value, adding or subtracting any modifiers that apply to the check.
I don't see anything about playing cards to affect the roll there. Certainly the Luckstone and Jinx Eater carve out exceptions, but I don't think Oloch does.
Can you tell me why you think it works?
mlvanbie might mean that Oloch says to return the cards to your hand "before you reset it", not "at the end of your turn". So if Oloch has a card that makes him reset his hand, but not end his turn, he can get his cards back and use his power again.
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I think my recommendation for Amaryllis in another thread would work fine here. It fits the new EOT, and doesn't allow any loopholes for Oloch.
Ah, I see. Thanks.
What Hawkmoon mentioned is one issue. I like Andrew's wording.
The other one is that you don't want any opportunities to play cards between returning cards to hand and resetting the hand (it should probably say 'immediately'). Someone might try to play a card during your end of turn step at this point, letting you redisplay cards for a recharge check.