Small Air Elemental and a swarm of beetles.

[Gevaudan]

Had a cool encounter last night wherein I summoned an air elemental into a beetle swarm and had it go whirlwind. No one anticipated the combination and we ruled that due to the unique traits of a swarm when compared to a single large creature, that the swarm could get trapped in the whirlwind. Cool visual.

I wanted other people's thoughts on this, both RAW and RAI. Swarms function as a mass of creatures that you don't really kill as much as break up, with each component being little.

[Wiggz]

Gevaudan wrote:

Had a cool encounter last night wherein I summoned an air elemental into a beetle swarm and had it go whirlwind. No one anticipated the combination and we ruled that due to the unique traits of a swarm when compared to a single large creature, that the swarm could get trapped in the whirlwind. Cool visual.

I wanted other people's thoughts on this, both RAW and RAI. Swarms function as a mass of creatures that you don't really kill as much as break up, with each component being little.

In that particular case, I'd treat the swarm as a single creature one size smaller than the Elemental - regardless of the actual size of the elemental - and absolutely make it vulnerable to the attack. Very cool effect.

[Kazaan]

PRD wrote:

Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

That was exactly how it should be handled; wind is special when it comes to swarms of Diminutive or Fine creatures in a similar way to how they take +50% damage from AoE damage.

[Gevaudan]

@Wiggz: that's essentially what we did.

I feel like you could break it down into the two whirlwind components:

1.) Can the whirlwind force a save versus damage against the swarm contacting the whirlwind (1st whirlwind effects). Reasonable answer seems to be yes.

2.) Can the whirlwind pick up the swarm, forcing save and triggering auto damage? Yes seems like a fair answer, as would considering volume of swarm to volume of whirlwind. Like a small whirlwind can swallow a large swarm, medium to huge, etc.

Next: does a whirlwind double hit a creature that fails both the contact save and the lift off save on the first round of contact?

[Gevaudan]

Kazaan wrote:

That was exactly how it should be handled; wind is special when it comes to swarms of Diminutive or Fine creatures in a similar way to how they take +50% damage from AoE damage.

That's pretty conclusive. Thanks!

Still curious about the double save/ double damage question. If a creature is trapped in a whirlwind, When does it take the damage? Does it function similar to a grapple, delivered on the whirlwind's turn?