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Here's a rather quick introduction. In this chapter, I'll explain:
- My reasoning for this fix
- My idea of a fighter
- Why I think other fighter fixes fall somewhat short of the mark
So first off, as we all know, Fighters Don't Get Nice things. It's true, they've been made better, they can compete with the barbarian in raw damage output, they've a better AC than they had in 3.5 (This is very controversial, because they can't make use of it until later levels.) and they've a moderately decent two-part capstone. However.
HOWEVER.
It's weak. It's literally lacking for such a system as Pathfinder, which is all about (in my opinion) investment into a particular path or style that you wish to impose on your character, and then getting EPIC profit out of it at later levels. (Definitely not something the current fighter does.) So, hence the fix.
The flavour of the fighter. This is extremely conflicted, actually. It's literally interpreted by each player in an individual manner, however the most common mistake is this: People are spoilt by the flavour of warriors in World of Warcraft and other MMO settings, where the class is much closer to a barbarian than it ever will be to the quintessential man-at-arms.
So what is the quintessential man-at-arms, then? Let's divide this into a few different bits.
1) Skill with weapons. Yes, unlike the Barbarian who gets very angry and hits something so hard it goes away, you have -skill- in your weapon. Now, we take that skill to a fantasy level... meaning we have EPIC SKILL. I'll get to the more specific representations of this in every specific class ability, however.
2) Versatility...? Not really. In medieval times, you could rarely find a soldier who was a master in more than one kind of weapon, however quite a few of them were quite proficient in a few, and a master of one. For instance in the times of Rennaisance, the period in which true greatswords were developed, you had men training to properly wield the greatsword ALL THEIR LIVES, just to master the bloody thing. It's literally that hard to learn all the moves as said in tradition, AND THEN implicate them in active, gritty and bloody combat where you often times have to think outside of the box and change your techniques accordingly to the situation.
3) EPICZ STRENGTHZ!!! Again, not really. That's a Barbarian shtick. The Fighter is not the juggernaut that absorbs damage and lumber through the battlefield, cleaving through his foes in swings of epic strength - although he can be, just in a different, more classy, clever and sexy way. He uses, once again, flawless weapon strikes, reaction time and correct positioning according to his enemies. The same goes for willpower. Bursting through your enemies mind controlling spell with pure, unbridled badass is a barbarian shtick. But, you've got feats, man. Get yourself that Improved Iron Will, you can afford it (usually).
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Combat Mastery +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor training
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapon training
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Combat Mastery +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Armor training
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Weapon training
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Combat Mastery +3
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Armor training
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Weapon training
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Combat Mastery +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Armor training
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Weapon training
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Combat Mastery +5
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Armor mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Weapon mastery
Combat Mastery (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus to the amount of attacks of opportunity he can make. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels after the 2nd (6th, 10th, 14th, 18th.) until it reaches a total of +5.
Comment: Dexterity is nice to have. It reperesents your reaction time, flexibility and overall agility in the D20 system. However, reaction time need not come from here. Often times, great masters of combat react to attacks and enemy openings with pure subconscious training, which was beaten in to them years upon years of their lives. (Look at the fighter minimum age. It suggests that they underwent serious training. Although, not always.)
Also, why switch out bravery? Because you're a human being, and a giant undead ghiest will scare the living breath out of you. Want to be a strong willed, fearless warrior? You have feats. Take Improved Iron Will.
Armor Training (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1, while also granting 1 of DR. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Comment: Nothing too big of a fix here. The DR here represents that even if the fighter did not successfuly avoid his opponents assault, he still moves in such a way that the blow is less. Besides, the 19th level DR 5/-- capstone...? Yeah, it comes in play too late to matter. This is much better, and doesn't break anything at all. At the end of the day, you get one less DR than the fighter used to have.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
When the fighter misses with his favoured weapon, or is parried, he may reroll his attack roll immediately and make a second attack at -1 to hit, up to a number of times equal to the amount of weapon training he possesses. (His first group gains 4 rerolls, his second 3 and so on.)
Comment: First off, in a TL;DR, this remained the same sans the +1 damage bonus. Again, you're not the barbarian, you don't hit harder due to whatever reasons. You just hit. You don't miss, because you're good at your weapon.
The second bit, about the reroll, should be imagined in a specific way, once again having to do specifically with technique. When you swing a polehammer and it misses, you usually get pretty awful overswing... if you're bad. If you aren't, you'll shift your weight and slide your hand up to hold it in a wider grip, giving you less leverage to deal with. Then you simply shift the hammerhead in a windmill kind of way and bring it right back up where you started. You can do this with alot of weapons, even the greatsword, which is much less cumbersome than you'd think. You don't need to do the sliding grip, thing, even. Just redirect the momentum of the weapon downwards, and use what's left of it to bring it back up behind, and over you... or just into another swing immediately. There's your reroll. (Actual historical greatswords weighed no more than 3lbs, by the by.)
Armor Mastery (Ex)
At 19th level, the Fighter may ignore a critical blow, but treat it as a sunder attempt upon his armor, causing it to take damage instead. You treat your dexterity as 4 higher for determining your Armor Class while wearing armor, in addition.
Comment: This should be pretty self-explanatory if you've an imagination. This isn't exactly too realistic, but this IS a fantasy setting. It's much more flavoured than the DR 5/-- thing, because unlike the barbarian, you're not supposed to be dumb enough to actually get HIT. And the "dexterity" bonus, well. You're a -master- of armor with this capstone, essentially. You know how to move correctly in it, and don't need to have any sort of natural agility to do it. It's all training.
Weapon Mastery (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type. The fighter gains a +1 to his attack ROLLS. (If your rolled a 1, it is counted as a 2.)
When wielding his chosen weapon, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to his AC against attacks of opportunity and any enemy making an attack in the fighter’s threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity even if he normally wouldn’t. If this attack is a critical strike, you may make a free disarm check against the fighter's victim.
Comment: First off, the roll thing represents you being so good with your weapon that you simply -can't- fumble it. It just doesn't work that way, because you're a fighter, you're good at what you do at a fantasy level, and you're sexy in your gleaming armor.
Second, the attack of opportunity thing. Imagine it like this: You're so good at your weapon, that you actually strike an enemy before he even raises his weapon, making use of that split-second opening. Is it beyond what a mortal can do? Most certainly, but we're in fantasy, folks. The disarm? Man, you just crit. You probably just cut his arm clean off. Or stabbed him through the bone with a spear.
Additional information:
Why did I not give him more skills and/or skill points and other such numerical bonuses?
Simple. You're a fighter. Your existence is based solely on being able to kill people. If you've been trained most of your life to kill enemies, are you really going to have time to learn how to play the lute? You are? Well, consult with your GM so that he can add perfomrance (lute) as a class skill for you then. Or just give yourself more intellegence points for an extra skill point. No one said optimization has to trump flavour, my friend.
You have 5 less bonus feats than the traditional fighter, what gives?
Because Fighter isn't FEATS: THE CLASS, he's a man-at-arms. A soldier. A warrior. Given how hard it is to truly master a single weapon, barring the standard shortspear or arming axe, you don't need much more feats than 6 bonus ones in total, as that, in conjunction with your general feats gained, is quite enough to complete a feat chain, which is just fine. (The longest one being two-weapon fighting sword and board.)
There you have it. I tried to stick to the basic template of generic fighter as much as possible, while giving him short, but very to-the-point fixes in his abilities. Pathfinder tends to put a very high price-tags on getting extra feats, so as a result, the fighter suffered as a class from not recieving any actual bonuses in favor of mediocre, non-scaling feats.
Criticism accepted!
Bonus Feat
So, you ne fighter gets them every four levels? Was that on purpose or an accident?
Combat Mastery
While a bonus AoO each round has a little more potential than a bonus to fear saves, it is a similar bonus, in that its going to depend almost exclusively on the GM's style. There is no proative way I can think of to use the class feature. Maybe I have spent too many years with GM who I am sure has a record of some kind for how few AoOs he gave up.
Armor Training
The DM is OK. Its coming online sooner than where barbarian gets it, but I guess thats OK. If you instead increase the armor bonus by 1, I think that would be better.
Weapon Training
I always thought that a flat bonus to attack and damage was clear and simple (a good thing), so I'm against changing that. As for the re-roll, you haven't defined what a "favoured weapon" is, and the -1 to attack seems fairly insignificant. A -2 would be more meaningful and more in line with other game mechanics, but if I'm giving up a flat dmaage bonus for a limited use re-roll feature, I'm just not sure thats good enough.
Admittedly, I may have neglected to properly detail that part. Thank you for pointing it out.
The favoured weapon is essentially the weapon group a fighter has his Weapon Training in. The -1 to hit stacks with each new reroll, which I have failed to properly display. So, if say, you have a spear and are trying to hit someone with a tower shield during your AoO, you fail at pinching through that AC, but then you reroll in hopes of rolling better dice and hitting through once more. Perhaps I should have an AoO tax to every reroll, with the cost if one AoO for every try.
Yes, the DR does come into play sooner, but it also progresses much slower than the Barbarian's, reaching a total of 4 at level 15.
Do keep in mind that the introduction was there to explain that I very much favour flavor over optimization, although I choose to believe that I haven't neglected either aspect.
The lesser amount of feats is on purpose, yes. I felt like staying with the old progression would cause the fighter to have too many class features.
The nerf to damage in weapon training was for balancing and FLAVOUR, purposes. The class is there to help you create a convincing and compelling warrior type character, rather than provide you with a mechanical advantage over other classes, so I'd much rather keep that as it is.
The bonus AoOs can very well come into play often with a spear or a composite bow, but perhaps I can add something in there. I very much didn't wish to make their level 2 class ability too strong, as that would make fighters too "dip" worthy. Perhaps I can add something to give you more use for attacks of opportunity, however. I'll think of something, maybe.
P.S.: I tried to stick with the classic fighter template as much as possible, so that it can be easily integrated into Archetypes. However, how about this: At 8th level, all the fighters attacks that are not part of a full attack action deal double weapon damage. (Greatsword 4d6) At 12th level, triple. 16th quadruple. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. In addition, starting 8th level, a fighter may force an enemy to provoke an attack of opportunity from him once per round.
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Let's first look at your premises:
First, this is a fantasy world, and you're injecting too much reality. Guys didn't train all their lives just to master their greatsword ...they trained all their lives JUST TO STAY IN SHAPE so they could wield a greatsword.
Two, wielding a weapon is hard to learn. It doesn't take 16 hours a day. You have plenty of time to devote to learning other things. All you have to do is look at modern soldiers and the amount of stuff they are expected to learn. As long as it is directly relevant to your duties, it should be learnable. Indeed, it is YOUR JOB to learn this stuff!
So, no mod to skill points makes no sense. Fighters will learn anything and everything that is needed to make their job better...fighters can be extremely intellectual, and some of the greatest books on philosophy have come from the minds of warriors.
Three, all assumptions of reality break down once you pass level 6. Remember, this is a world of magic, where the magic of xp helps someone level to be impossibly good at something in very short periods of time, where in six months you can know more about a trade or profession then someone who has been doing it for years. THe magic for the fighting classes comes in learning stuff faster then anyone in the modern world would believe possible. Leveling is magic. Skills, BAB, feats are the magic the warrior wields. He is not limited by our conventions.
Four, the lack of good saving throws is idiotic. Any warrior will tell you you must have defenses. Without defenses, the strongest offense means nothing. Iron WIll doesn't cut the mustard, and Improved Iron WIll at level 10 for a 1/day reroll doesn't work, either.
Five, Armor training Dex cap is DUMB. It forces the Fighter to have a high Dex in order to take advantage of his own training. Either change it to a straight dodge bonus or another kind of bonus.
Simply have Armor training advance to level 19, and it becomes the capstone. Add extra benefits at 11 and 15 to keep the pattern of extra stuff going. Smooth progression.
Six, without a feat fix, your build won't mean anything. Not only did the fighter have fewer class features then any other class, you took away 2.5 of them (since bonus feats are only worth half a class features).
===============
You really, really oversimplified the fighter, and cut his legs out from under him by trying to force him to obey the laws of reality in a magical world.
I suggest a re-write, along the principles of "Fighters learn skill - combat skill, skill points, toughness, etc - magically fast and well, and turn that learning into ability that rivals the magical arts of all other classes."
===Aelryinth
Interesting, actually. A lot of good points were made, although some I do not agree with.
My intention was not to provide a straight "buff" to the character, but more to create something that fits the classes feel somewhat more accurately, in my humble opinion.
And I agree, level 6 is the end of reality as we know it, however the fighter indeed obeys it up until then. His supernatural battle prowess comes from him overcoming the boundaries of mere mortal's martial prowess by living through it, and meeting with a fate that made him more. So some must be upheld, but perhaps you are right, and I should provide the fighter with more options and nice things past level 5. I'll try to think of something that does not upset balance too much and keeps the fighter fun and interesting to play.
However, the skill points I blatantly disagree with. The quintessential fighter is a killing machine, raised and trained for that one sole purpose. A dog to loose when war is waged. However, by taking a higher intelligence score, you can achieve quite literally exactly what you described. Philosophy, more skills and so on. Although, I may be simply conservative in my view of these things, fearing that 4 skill points would be too much. Then again, do take a look at the paladin, who also posses only 2 base points per level.
The Dex part of Armor Training is more to do with flavor than anything. Yes, training can compensate for many things, but you need to have at least SOME dexterity to make it work. The armor mastery cap provides a net +2 Dex mod for determining armored touch AC and general AC, which isn't bad at all. Considering you use magical items that provide more Dex and have at least 12 of it, you can effectively shore up the entire dexterity requirement. Admittedly, perhaps I should split the Dex thing into two, granting one at armor training 2, and the other at 4.
Yes, the lack of good will saves is a bummer, but the fighters flavor essentially doesn't say anything that would imply him to have good saving throws. That was the only reason I didn't want to add such, as this fix is more oriented towards the man-at-arms fantasy feel.
Feats. Alright, feats. I reduced the amount of them to compensate for the good stuff I've given the fighter as is. What I can do, however, is provide the fighter with a third capstone, which doubles all numerical bonuses the fighter receives from feats, making the ones that are left that much more juicy and meaningful. That Iron Will fear will suddenly turn into pure candy.
While I'm hesitant to make the fighter gain another armor training in essence, I agree that armor mastery is a mediocre ability, since fortification enchantments are a thing. I'll rewrite it entirely.
All in all, the fighter seems to actually be much more fantasy-scaled as he is now, than as he was before, while retaining the genuine skillful warrior feel, with more options than to simply opt for a full-attack up his sleeve or pretend to be a barbarian. Suddenly you have to think about taking a position in which your opponents will receive the maximum amount of attacks of opportunities. Battlefield control, essentially. Although, not for me to judge.
Why focus on just one class, when several classes suffer from the same systemic issues that create the perception of a problem with the fighter?
Paladins are SPELLCASTERS and religious hardcore to boot.
Fighters TRAIN.
You told me to look at the Paladin. I say, look at the RANGER. Here is a guy who literally does nothing all day but hunt and wander around. He does not TRAIN. 6 Skill points. AND HE'S A SPELLCASTER TO BOOT.
Look at the Barbarian. Wenches and brawls. 4 skill points.
Yet you're describing someone who trains all the time, and both starts out with less then the Ranger, and doesn't get any more.
The fighter's ability with skills should not be reliant on a STATISTIC. The same holds true for armor training sans Dex.
The fighter should be versatile and adaptive. His abilities should reflect continuous training. Where other smarty-pants have stuff come naturally to them, the fighter trains and trains until he learns stuff he feels he needs.
Of the martial classes, the fighter is the only one that thematically is engaging in continual self-improvement. Yet none of that is reflected in his class.
The historical fighter you are referring to is the warrior. The warrior is a guy who fights.
The Fighter is the Olympian of fighting. He's constantly looking for ways to test himself, improve on his art...and defend himself from enemies, especially those using magic (which is EVERY OTHER CLASS). It is his job to be the champion, the guardian, the warlord and the soldier, and to serve superbly in all those duties.
Make a fighter that can DO that. Because that's not what you have there.
==Aelryinth
@Aelrynth
Not trying to start an argument, friend. Just discussing.
A ranger can be played in many ways. My personal take on it is a specialized troop, due to the "bypass prerequisite style feats" shtick, rather than just hunting. The fact that they can take more than just ranged combat as style feats would imply that they indeed do train. Although, that's a point which every player chooses to play out differently.
A barbarian is not born in a tavern as well. Before he came to our humble city, he has been out in the wilds with his tribe, hunting wild beasts with his bare hands and investing in his primal aspects, aka rage. Well, one of the ways to view it.
The paladin, yes, bad example to be sure. Sorry about that. Spell casting is a huge boon for both paladin and ranger, which I have to take into account. And barbarians have their rage powers, which are quite literally raging so hard you slap physics and reality with your giant muscular hands.
You indeed describe a generalist fighter who you can adapt to a great many character backgrounds.
I would rather not -directly- give him better saves. Much rather give options that will allow the fighter to -have- those better saves if he -wants- to and it fits his character concept. I'll think of a way to make it happen in a rather effective way.
I am taking notes, yes, if you were wondering.
P.S. If you've played the earliest editions of DnD, I'm taking the old fighter as he used to be for inspiration.
@Lincoln
Because the fighter is suffering the most.
Feats are still the central class featiure of the fighter. You have cut those in half and have not given fair trade back. I appreciate that you want to increase how much thematic value the class feature's have, but you have used thematics to justify making them weaker, instead of the other way around.
Alright. You're right, it seems. I'll think on this and tweak the fix.
What I have in mind is to give every Training class ability rank an extra ability on top of the flat bonus. I'll get down to this tomorrow.
I did a fighter re-write with a feat re-write.
I ended up giving the fighter two feats at every level, plus potential bonus feats, and easily doubled the power of the feats.
it still wasn't overpowered. Just incredibly versatile. I didn't add bigger numbers...I just added a plethora of other numbers.
As for feats and saves:
I gave the Fighter 2 training feats every other level. Training feats deal with saves, skills, or movement/endurance. He skips all pre-reqs for them.
He could use these feats to plug holes in the core build. There are a LOT of holes to plug.
If he took Iron Will, his Bravery increases it.
If he takes Lightning Reflexes, his Armor Training improves it.
If he takes Great Fortitude, his Weapon Training improves it.
Thus, the fighter can use these bonus feats to effectively get a good Will save, good Reflex save, and a Fort save equal to a Raging Barbarian.
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If you're taking 1E inspiration, I recommend a change to other classes.
1) Half BAB classes get proficiency in a number of simple weapons equal to their starting skill points.
2) 3/4 BAB classes get proficiency in all simple weapons. If they have a class weapon list, they get proficiency in 2 weapons off that list.
3) Full BAB classes get proficiency in all simple weapons, and in a number of martial Weapons equal to their starting skill points.
4) Fighters and Paladins get proficiency in all martial weapons...the one because he's trained for it, and the other via divine inspiration.
Classes can add weapons in any group they are proficient in with a skill point. Thus, Exotic Weapons prof lets you add any amount of exotic weapons, 1 skill point at a time.
This gives weapon proficiency value again.
==+Aelryinth
I was always in favor of giving the fighter the monk save progression and leaving it at that.
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That's an excellent block fix, too. He probably deserves it more then the monk does.
You can make a 'quick fix' of the fighter by:
Going to 4 skill points, and adding another 4 skills of the fighter's choice to his list:
Going all good saves;
Letting the fighter skip pre-reqs for feats, at least as well as a ranger does;
And making Vital Strike and Weapon Spec feat trees one feat.
it doesn't solve the issue, but it helps.
==Aelryinth
The monk progression is a monk shtick, IMO. I wish to avoid mundane numerical increases, and instead make things a bit more roundabout.
For example, instead of giving the fighter good saves, give him something that simply prevents him from failing any save he desires in exchange for a point from a set pool, or just gives him rerolls.
While you did say I oversimplified the fighter, I also dread making him too complicated, as then the class loses what elegance it had in its design, forcing the player to read through masses of text to understand the ability.
How about this:
Uncanny Resilience:
In a world full of magical perils, fighters are trained or learn to condition their body and state to a specific situation. Starting 4th level the fighter may choose either his Fortitude, Reflex or Will save bonuses and increase them by +1 at the start of an encounter as an immediate action. This does not work in a surprise round. The fighter may change his chosen save bonus as a standard action.
At 8th, 12th and every four levels thereafter, the bonus from Uncanny Resilience increases by an additional +1, up to a maximum of +5. At 8th level, changing your chosen save bonus is a move action. At 12th, it is a swift action. 16th - free action. 20th - immediate action, and it works during surprise rounds.
Armor Mastery: While wearing armor or a shield, the fighter's touch AC is equal to his overall AC. (This might be overdoing it.)
Meh. Just give him a constant bonus like I did and be done with it.
To be sure, I had feats tying into other feats, boosting back and forth. Expertise, for example, became very powerful in my rewrite.
Among other things, Expertise with the appropriate save allowed you to take the - and assign the + to the save of all the feats you had the save to, instead of to your AC. If you wanted a really good saving throw, you could get it on demand!
If you had the improved feats, you could do the same with your defensive fighting bonus...and you got an extra number of rerolls per day equal to your Expertise bonus, etc.
Mind you, only fighters, and maybe rogues, got these bonuses.
==Aelryinth
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Every attempt to fix the fighter has to start with what it is exactly we want to fix.
If the goal is to get the fighter back to combat relevancy at higher levels, Then one thing that can be done is to scrap the "full attack" action and just let everybody make all their attacks with a standard action. This helps all characters who are not spellcasters.
Second thing that could be done to help fighters be more relevant in high level combat is make it so you cannot cast a spell if you withdraw and make it so that casters can't just back up to cast a spell. If you used something more like 2nd edition zone of control and withdrawl actions then it would make it much harder to avoid combat with fighters/fighter types.
These fixes focus on fixing what is wrong with combat, they do not address issues with who can fly, turn invisible or any of that other stuff. They also don't fix the fact that the fighter has terrible saves, is amazingly MAD for one of the 4 core roles, and don't fix the fighter classes direct issues
Or you can try and fix the fighter by playing with his saving throws, giving him more feats, changing the content of feats. Fixes like this help with the some of the core issues of the fighter himself but don't help that the game basically assumes that "fighter" is the class of bad guy mooks you are fighting.
Nether of these fixes the fact that a high level wizard can, on a whim, rewrite creation with Wish, or otherwise change the face of the game world so that it is totally different from what was published. To fix that requires giving high level fighters the kind of powers that start fights on boards like this.
We know what the problems and solutions are. To many people just don't like them.
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My fix was to do some cool new feats and hang them on the Bravery class feature, allowing me to preserve all of the existing framework while introducing lots of good options for improving skills and saves and opening up the Fighter's versatility. Hanging it on Bravery also kept the changes simple without causing power boosts for non-Fighters who get virtual Fighter levels.
2) Versatility...? Not really. In medieval times, you could rarely find a soldier who was a master in more than one kind of weapon, however quite a few of them were quite proficient in a few, and a master of one. For instance in the times of Rennaisance, the period in which true greatswords were developed, you had men training to properly wield the greatsword ALL THEIR LIVES, just to master the bloody thing.
Agree to disagree, and then depending on the setting and the culture. In the early fifteenth century, we saw the advent of the first true European fighting schools. Certain masters taught a single weapon, but others taught a great deal of weapon disciplines - as well as unarmed combat.
The point being that a man-at-arms in a typical battle of that era wouldn't switch weapons for the hell of it, or to demonstrate this great skill, but it's dangerous to assume that they could only fought well with the weapon they started out with.
Armor Training (Ex)
I like this.
When the fighter misses with his favoured weapon, or is parried, he may reroll his attack roll immediately and make a second attack at -1 to hit, up to a number of times equal to the amount of weapon training he possesses. (His first group gains 4 rerolls, his second 3 and so on.)
No offense, but I don't really like this. If a high-level Fighter is in combat with a bunch of peons, he's not likely to miss. This feature would simply make it increasingly difficult to miss, which in turn takes the excitement out of the situation and turns it into a process. And if that same Fighter is in combat with an equally-skilled individual, this feature does an injustice to someone who should be harder to hit.
You may want to consider a different mechanic. Perhaps something where the Fighter's skill allows him to ignore a certain amount of the enemy's armor bonus (probably commensurate with his Weapon Training bonus)? That would encourage other high-level opponents to attempt evading or parrying techniques, which is more realistic than them standing there and taking it.
Comment: First off, in a TL;DR, this remained the same sans the +1 damage bonus. Again, you're not the barbarian, you don't hit harder due to whatever reasons. You just hit. You don't miss, because you're good at your weapon.
I disagree with this logic. The Barbarian should be causing more damage because he's hitting harder (thanks to Rage, brute force, etc.). The Fighter could be more damage because he's a skilled combatant who knows where to best place his blows.
For instance, the swings of a Barbarian in the midst of Rage are informed by a need to crush/kill/destroy his opponent. On a good day, these thoughts are steering his warhammer/greatsword/greataxe to someone's cranium, but they could just be aimed at the opponent, period. A Fighter, on the other hand, is likely to be aiming for hamstrings, collarbones, armpits, and other spots that are either unprotected or will cripple/excessively hurt his opponent. If he can hit there, he knows where the liver is, or what angle will lead his sword-tip to the long. So on, so forth.
Armor Mastery
I like its spirit/intent... but I'd be weary of treating it as a Sunder attempt. You're coating a benefit with a potentially really bad situation. I might have been able to survive that critical hit (the assumption is that, as with most mechanics, you don't get to wait to choose to use this feature after damage has been rolled), but now I have no armor... and am far more vulnerable against my foe than I was before.
Weapon Master
I like it.
Simple. You're a fighter. Your existence is based solely on being able to kill people. If you've been trained most of your life to kill enemies, are you really going to have time to learn how to play the lute? You are? Well, consult with your GM so that he can add perfomrance (lute) as a class skill for you then. Or just give yourself more intellegence points for an extra skill point. No one said optimization has to trump flavour, my friend.
I'm not arguing that Fighters should have more than 2 Skill Points/level, but I don't agree with the above sentiment. We don't know much about the Italian and German masters who left behind the treatises of swordfighting that we know of, but we do know a good percentage of them were learned, urbane men for whom the sciences (such as they were then), law, etc., were not foreign concepts.
You have 5 less bonus feats than the traditional fighter, what gives?
Because Fighter isn't FEATS: THE CLASS, he's a man-at-arms. A soldier. A warrior. Given how hard it is to truly master a single weapon, barring the standard shortspear or arming axe, you don't need much more feats than 6 bonus ones in total, as ...
Again, disagree. It just sounds arbitrary and informed more by opinion than any real need to balance or enhance the Class itself.
If anything, I'd go the opposite direction. I'd say Fighters get the Power Attack and Combat Expertise Feats for free.
Fighters could also benefit from more apropos Feat Trees. The Shield, TWF, Disarming, and Critical chains were pretty good - the latter especially so when there were Epic rules and you eventually hit Devastating Critical. Unfortunately, there are a number of questionable/silly chains (Dazzling Display, etc., comes to mind) and there aren't nearly enough focusing on specific weapons or weapon stances.
The Fighter is the Olympian of fighting. He's constantly looking for ways to test himself, improve on his art...and defend himself from enemies, especially those using magic (which is EVERY OTHER CLASS). It is his job to be the champion, the guardian, the warlord and the soldier, and to serve superbly in all those duties.
The fighter rewrites I have conceptualized or begun (and I have never moved further than beginning them) have striven to achieve to this very thematic representation. After I read this paragraph I mulled over it a bit more while I drove. Here's what I came up with.
Dump Bravery. I mean, make it an option, but the player should be able to choose this or one of several thematically correct bonuses.
Put fighter feats into overdrive! As they exist, they give the fighter some pretty cool niche abilities, but all mundane. I think its important that the fighter remain non-magical, but can we at least shoot for superhuman? How much fantasy art features the hero heaving his shield into a dragon's firey breath, and emerging unharmed? That ability should be an immediate action for a high enough level fighter. I'm thinking that higher level fighter feats should be in that realm. Fantasy fiction of all mediums have portrayed heroes full of arrows, yet they yank one or two out and return to defeat their foe. Is this too much to ask for?
Since people love to point out how equipment dependant the fighter is, I also have feat ideas for how they could have additional abilities depending on the magic item's enchantment. For example, a firey weapon grants him fire resistance or wotnot. You could go crazy with ideas.
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat,
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Combat Mastery +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Armor training
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat, Fighter Talent
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapon training
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Combat Mastery +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Armor training
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat,
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Weapon training
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Combat Mastery +3
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Armor training
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat, Fighter Talent
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Weapon training
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Combat Mastery +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Armor training
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat,
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Weapon training
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Combat Mastery +5
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Armor mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Weapon mastery, Advanced Fighter Talent
Combat Mastery (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus to the amount of attacks of opportunity he can make. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels after the 2nd (6th, 10th, 14th, 18th.) until it reaches a total of +5.
Comment: Dexterity is nice to have. It reperesents your reaction time, flexibility and overall agility in the D20 system. However, reaction time need not come from here. Often times, great masters of combat react to attacks and enemy openings with pure subconscious training, which was beaten in to them years upon years of their lives. (Look at the fighter minimum age. It suggests that they underwent serious training. Although, not always.)
Also, why switch out bravery? Because you're a human being, and a giant undead ghiest will scare the living breath out of you. Want to be a strong willed, fearless warrior? You have feats. Take Improved Iron Will.
Armor Training (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1, while also granting 1 of DR. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Comment: Nothing too big of a fix here. The DR here represents that even if the fighter did not successfully avoid his opponents assault, he still moves in such a way that the blow is less. Besides, the 19th level DR 5/-- capstone...? Yeah, it comes in play too late to matter. This is much better, and doesn't break anything at all. At the end of the day, you get one less DR than the fighter used to have.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
When the fighter misses with his favoured weapon, or is parried, he may reroll his attack roll immediately at the cost of one attack of opportunity and make a second attack at -2 to hit, up to a number of times equal to half the amount of weapon training he possesses, rounded down. Each reroll used progressively stacks this penalty to hit for the next reroll. (His first group gains 2 rerolls. His third gains 1.)
Comment: First off, in a TL;DR, this remained the same sans the +1 damage bonus. Again, you're not the barbarian, you don't hit harder due to whatever reasons. You just hit. You don't miss, because you're good at your weapon.
The second bit, about the reroll, should be imagined in a specific way, once again having to do specifically with technique. When you swing a polehammer and it misses, you usually get pretty awful overswing... if you're bad. If you aren't, you'll shift your weight and slide your hand up to hold it in a wider grip, giving you less leverage to deal with. Then you simply shift the hammerhead in a windmill kind of way and bring it right back up where you started. You can do this with alot of weapons, even the greatsword, which is much less cumbersome than you'd think. You don't need to do the sliding grip, thing, even. Just redirect the momentum of the weapon downwards, and use what's left of it to bring it back up behind, and over you... or just into another swing immediately. There's your reroll. (Actual historical greatswords weighed no more than 3lbs, by the by.)
Armor Mastery (Ex)
Armor Mastery (Ex):
At 19th level, the fighter may ignore one critical strike against his person per round at the cost of one attack of opportunity.
Weapon Mastery (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type. The fighter gains a +1 to his attack ROLLS. (If your rolled a 1, it is counted as a 2.)
The fighter’s threat zone increases by 5 ft. Whenever an attack of opportunity is triggered in this zone, he may make a free five ft. step. (Note that despite the increase in his threatened squares, he may still only attack people within the range of his weapon. So a greatsword will still strike only adjacent squares.)
When wielding his chosen weapon, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to his AC against attacks of opportunity and any enemy making an attack or movement (Including 5 ft steps.) in the fighter’s threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity even if he normally wouldn’t. If this attack is a critical strike, you may make a free combat maneuver of your choice against the fighter's victim. Attacks of Opportunity provoked in this manner occur before the action that triggered them.
Comment: First off, the roll thing represents you being so good with your weapon that you simply -can't- fumble it. It just doesn't work that way, because you're a fighter, you're good at what you do at a fantasy level, and you're sexy in your gleaming armor.
Second, the attack of opportunity thing. Imagine it like this: You're so good at your weapon, that you actually strike an enemy before he even raises his weapon, making use of that split-second opening. Is it beyond what a mortal can do? Most certainly, but we're in fantasy, folks. The disarm? Man, you just crit. You probably just cut his arm clean off. Or stabbed him through the bone with a spear.
Fighter Talents:
Forced Opportunity (Ex): Once per round, the fighter may force an enemy within his threatened zone to give up an attack of opportunity to the fighter. This is can be done as an immediate or swift action. Spellcasters placed under this effect must make a concentration check with a DC of 10 + half the fighter’s level + the total amount of attacks of opportunity has in his repertoire.
Resilience (Ex): The fighter may choose not to use Power Attack or Combat Expertise this round, instead granting himself a bonus of his (Base Attack Bonus/5) to all his saves, rounded up. This must be decided at the start of the turn.
Versatile Feat (Ex): The fighter may instead choose to gain a Combat Feat from the list of fighter feats. At the start of each day, the fighter may spend 2 hours to switch out feats chosen this way for other fighter feats he is able to take. (You can’t ignore prerequisites, basically.)
Mental Fortitude (Ex): The fighter may choose three specific types of will-save requiring negative effects. He gains a bonus to will saves against those effects equal to his base attack bonus divided by 5, rounded up. This talent may be taken several times, however its effects do not stack. Each new time, the fighter chooses a different set of will-save requiring effects. (F.E. Compulsion effects, Fear effects etc.)
Feat Mastery (Ex): The fighter may choose one ability score. Any feats with a certain number of that ability score in their prerequisites may be taken as though you’ve met them. You may choose this talent several times, each time choosing a new ability score.
Halting Blow (Ex): Any attack of opportunity made by the fighter immediately ends any movement the victim was attempting in the square where the attack of opportunity would be made. This can not be used with ranged weapons.
Whirlwind Attack (Ex): The fighter may take the Whirlwind attack feat, ignoring its prerequisites.
Advanced Talents:
Superior Training (Ex): The fighter does not receive any attack roll penalties for using Power Attack of Combat Expertise.
Countermagical Defense (Su): The fighter has learned to wield his armor with such efficiency, that he gain Spell Resistance 15 + half his fighter level + armor / shield enhancement bonus.
Impossible Finesse (Ex): The Fighter’s weapon gains the Keen property. If the weapon already has Keen, or the fighter has the Improved Critical feat, the threat range is increased by 1. (f.e. 20-18 -> 20-17. This bonus does not get doubled by Keen or Improved Critical.)
------------------------
Here's what I came up with, avoiding flat numeric bonuses and such.
Changes in a TL;DR:
Added 2 talents a fighter can take and one advanced talent, as well as creating a list from which to pick.
Nerfed the amount of rerolls from Weapon Training to half, with your first weapon group now only providing with 2 rerolls at a stacking -2 penalty to attack.
Increased Weapon Mastery to grant attacks of opportunity when any MOVEMENT or attack is made within the fighter's threatened squares.
Weapon Mastery now grants a 5ft. increase to the threatened zone of a fighter, however does not increase the range at which a fighter may attack. When an attack of opportunity is provoked, the fighter may make a free 5ft. step in any direction.
Comment: Now, I'm a bit concerned that this is starting to drift away from the basic template of the fighter. It's much harder to apply this to any of the Fighter's Archetypes now, due to the addition of Talents. It's also quite hard to make talents that do not tread on any of the archetype's toes. Suggestions and criticism appreciated!
The Fighter is the Olympian of fighting. He's constantly looking for ways to test himself, improve on his art...and defend himself from enemies, especially those using magic (which is EVERY OTHER CLASS). It is his job to be the champion, the guardian, the warlord and the soldier, and to serve superbly in all those duties.The fighter rewrites I have conceptualized or begun (and I have never moved further than beginning them) have striven to achieve to this very thematic representation. After I read this paragraph I mulled over it a bit more while I drove. Here's what I came up with.
Dump Bravery. I mean, make it an option, but the player should be able to choose this or one of several thematically correct bonuses.
Put fighter feats into overdrive! As they exist, they give the fighter some pretty cool niche abilities, but all mundane. I think its important that the fighter remain non-magical, but can we at least shoot for superhuman? How much fantasy art features the hero heaving his shield into a dragon's firey breath, and emerging unharmed? That ability should be an immediate action for a high enough level fighter. I'm thinking that higher level fighter feats should be in that realm. Fantasy fiction of all mediums have portrayed heroes full of arrows, yet they yank one or two out and return to defeat their foe. Is this too much to ask for?
Since people love to point out how equipment dependant the fighter is, I also have feat ideas for how they could have additional abilities depending on the magic item's enchantment. For example, a firey weapon grants him fire resistance or wotnot. You could go crazy with ideas.
I turned Bravery, Armor Training and Weapon Training into Engines of Modifiers. To this mix I added Toughness and Expertise. I moved away from adding stat modifiers to anything as a class ability, because it's the easiest way to break a class.
I turned Armor Training into a virtual Enhancement bonus, and dumped the whole Dex to AC thing entirely. If he wants a great dex to AC, get Mithral and Celestial like everyone else. But a fighter can don any suit of masterwork armor and it will work like it was +1 to +5...and this stacks with the normal enhancement bonus, up to +5, +6 at level 19. It's also completely non-magical and doesn't trip the +10 camp.
So the fighter had magic armor in anti-magic zones, all armor was great armor when he wore it, and his armor had more special abilities then yours. Cause he's a fighter, and fighters are better at using gear then other classes.
Did the same with weapon training, to an extent. Your Weapon training added to your weapon to determine your DR punching. So a fighter with a sword +3 at 8th level and WT +2 can punch all forms of DR, and any masterwork sword he picks up is at least considered magical.
Hrm. I should post the build thoughts and fighter critique I made up, just to get some feedback. As you say, you build a fighter to address the weaknesses it has.
==Aelryinth
Besides giving the Fighter 4+Int skills per level, and making Armor Training increase both Max Dex Bonus AND AC Bonus by +1, instead of just MDB, I don't think it's a major issue to have the Fighter basically stay as-is.
The Fighter is 2 things - either a jack-of-all-trades warrior who focuses solely on being a weapons-master and nothing else; or the single-most-useful class to take.
Fighter is the best class to dip into. The extra feats it grants you, plus the archetypes which focus on nearly any style of combat, make Fighter the go-to-class for several martial builds that need access to feats quickly.
You may rarely take Fighter to lv20 but be sure you're going to dip into it at some point in your career playing Martials.
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'the dip class' was 3E. We want the fighter to remain viable at ALL LEVELs.
==Aelryinth