| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I have DM credit to give me a level 5 PFS character, and I love the idea of the hand crossbow. What is the best way to make it the most effective (knowing that by nature crossbow and especially hand crossbow it is not effective)
Obviously I need Precise, PB, Rapid Reload
Best way to go about it? Fighter? Ranger? Bolt Ace? Rogue or ninja?
|
First:Kudos to you for choosing the cool choice instead of the optimal one.
Second:I'd probably mix Bolt Ace with Sanctified Slayer. 2 levels of inquisitor are ally you really want/need, to get free proficiency, and then a ton of other cool boons(including being the Initiative king, and helping you take advantage of a high wisdom). If you expect to reach level 11, then I'd take EWP(light crossbow), and use retraining to get yourself Signature Deed instead(touch attacks are worth the prestige cost). You might consider getting a Glove of Storing and going with Two-Weapon Fighting, because one of the only advantages of hand-crossbows is that they are light weapons.
Hmm sanctified slayer. I have not looked at that before. Time to do some reading!
Any other thoughts from anyone else?
I just want to echo that some inquisitor levels (especially with Bane) can make damage insane, or at least decent with a suboptimal (but very cool!) weapon like the hand crossbow. That does take 5 levels in inquisitor, though you can also gain a limited Bane ability with the Bane Baldric item. I can't remember the source, but a quick search should find it easily.
EvilPaladin is right in that the only advantage of using a Hand Crossbow is that they count as Light weapons. So I would TWF with them or else use a Light Crossbow.
Whatever class you end up using, if you want to TWF with hand crossbows, make a Tiefling (or some other race with a tail) and pick up the Prehensile Tail alternate racial. No screwing around with switching hands, or nerfed-to-a-move action Weapon Cords, or waiting for Gloves of Storing, or waiting for Inexplicable Reload only to debate whether a non-action still requires the use of your hands. Asura-Spawn can get you the ideal +2 Dex/+2 Wis at the cost of -2 Int.
Inquisitors don't get bonus feats, so unless you start at a high level you can do Archery or TWF, but not both. Bolt Ace is your best bet, and I would stick with it until level 11-12.
Finally, ask your DM about the following reasonable fixes to the Bolt Ace:
- Proficiency in all Crossbows, rather than Firearms
- Rapid Reload as a bonus feat at first level, instead of Gunsmithing
- Start with a free Crossbow instead of free Firearm
Edit: Never mind; PFS.
Eegh, yeah, you'll need a number of feats to make this work.
Another option is Sohei monk. You can flurry with the hand crossbow which can also be rapid shot as well.
Character gets to start at level 5, so if I were to go inquisitor then I could have the three required feats, add one if I went with a human. Then I could do TWF, and I would have enough money for a glove of storing.
The other option would be to go TW Warrior if I wanted to TWF.
EWP, PB, Precise, TWF, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot. The question is would the addition of Weapon Training, Extra BAB and Deadly Aim and Rapid shot outweigh having Bane?
Also when you flurry with hand crossbows , you can sdd your strength bonus.
|
|
Looking at the numbers, the inquisitor, just with bane, (assuming no Dex mod, a terrible idea) would have 3BAB+2Bane-2TWF for 2 attacks at +3 for 1d4+2d6+2, average damage of 11.5(not DPR, just per shot av. damage).
Looking at the fighter, same assumptions, you have 5BAB+1Weapon Training-2TWF-2Rapidshot-2Deadly Aim for 3 attacks at +0 for 1d4+3, or an average of 5.5/shot. I'd say the Inquisitor wins by a long shot(especially if you figure in Judgement or Studied Target and Divine Favor).
Character gets to start at level 5, so if I were to go inquisitor then I could have the three required feats, add one if I went with a human. Then I could do TWF, and I would have enough money for a glove of storing.
The other option would be to go TW Warrior if I wanted to TWF.
EWP, PB, Precise, TWF, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot. The question is would the addition of Weapon Training, Extra BAB and Deadly Aim and Rapid shot outweigh having Bane?
Go with Bolt Ace. In spite of its flaws it's still the only class that makes Crossbows worth using.
H: Point Blank Shot
L1: Precise Shot
L3: Rapid Reload
L4: TWF
L5: Deadly Aim
---------
L7: Improved TWF
L8: Rapid Shot
L9: Improved Critical
L11: Signature Deed (the one that lets you hit Touch AC)
L12: Improved Precise Shot
BAB is very important when your talking about twf. If your missing, then your not damaging.
Don't forget that Inquisitors need yet another feat to add Bane to two weapons at the same time, and that doing so burns it at twice the rate.
So here is an interesting question. What is better if wielding just a single hand crossbow. I assume bolt ace is the way to go?
Bolt Ace is still the way to go. And save yourself a feat by using a regular Light Crossbow.
i think i will make a bolt ace. Going with hand crossbow, as that was the entire point.
Hopefully by the time i get around to playing him they will fix the weapon proficiency and get rid of gunsmithing and give weapon proficiency with all the crossbows.
You could also look into the Investigator and the Warpriest.
The Investigator is proficient and can add Studied Combat (+½ Investigator level to atk/dmg), has access to Mutagen, Cat's Grace and Alter Self/Reduce Person for a +10 Dex bump total. At higher levels you can get an Inspired weapon to add 1d6/1d8 to the attack and damage rolls. And you get a crap-ton of skill points. You can also add poison to your shots, but I favor the Empiricist archetype which swaps out all the Poison use abilities.
The Cult Leader archetype for Warpriest is also proficient, but I'd probably go straight Warpriest and either burn the Feat or go Half-Elf for Ancestral Training. The Warpriest scales weapon damage, so at level 5 you're doing 1d8 with a Hand Crossbow. With Blessings and Sacred weapon you can add 1d6 Good and 1d6 Energy so you're doing 1d8+2d6/shot. With Divine Favor and Fate's Favored you're at +2 atk/dmg for 1 min (bumping to +3 at level 6). The class also gives you access to healing and a ton of utility via scrolls.
ooo that is interesting also. What god gives hand crossbow?
ooo that is interesting also. What god gives hand crossbow?
Nothing Pathfinder-legal, as far as I can tell, unfortunately. So you'd need to use Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Half-Elf Ancestral Training (alternate racial trait) or Heirloom Weapon (trait).
With Heirloom Weapon you can upgrade the weapon with Masterwork transformation and then the normal +1, etc. upgrade path, but you're tied to that specific weapon, which I view as somewhat risky.
The Cult Leader archetype gives it to you for free, but then it swaps out Focus Weapon, so you have to burn a feat on Weapon Focus to use Sacred Weapon. So it's a wash. It also gives you a reduced Sneak Attack progression, but I really don't think it's worth it for what you lose.
|
|
Actually, Heirloom Weapon only works with Martial and Simple weapons.ooo that is interesting also. What god gives hand crossbow?Nothing Pathfinder-legal, as far as I can tell, unfortunately. So you'd need to use Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Half-Elf Ancestral Training (alternate racial trait) or Heirloom Weapon (trait).
With Heirloom Weapon you can upgrade the weapon with Masterwork transformation and then the normal +1, etc. upgrade path, but you're tied to that specific weapon, which I view as somewhat risky.
The Cult Leader archetype gives it to you for free, but then it swaps out Focus Weapon, so you have to burn a feat on Weapon Focus to use Sacred Weapon. So it's a wash. It also gives you a reduced Sneak Attack progression, but I really don't think it's worth it for what you lose.
You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.
Actually, Heirloom Weapon only works with Martial and Simple weapons.ooo that is interesting also. What god gives hand crossbow?Nothing Pathfinder-legal, as far as I can tell, unfortunately. So you'd need to use Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Half-Elf Ancestral Training (alternate racial trait) or Heirloom Weapon (trait).
With Heirloom Weapon you can upgrade the weapon with Masterwork transformation and then the normal +1, etc. upgrade path, but you're tied to that specific weapon, which I view as somewhat risky.
The Cult Leader archetype gives it to you for free, but then it swaps out Focus Weapon, so you have to burn a feat on Weapon Focus to use Sacred Weapon. So it's a wash. It also gives you a reduced Sneak Attack progression, but I really don't think it's worth it for what you lose.
You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.
Well, there you go. I wouldn't recommend it even if it did work.
A tube arrow shooter is PFS legal and seems to be in the crossbow weapon group. Reloading time is forbidding though.
The thing is, if you're planning to use class features like Studied Combat or Bane instead of adding a stat to your damage, there's no reason not to just use a Composite Longbow. Instead of paying a feat tax in Rapid Reload, you can get a feat that actually does something and take Manyshot.
The thing is, if you're planning to use class features like Studied Combat or Bane instead of adding a stat to your damage, there's no reason not to just use a Composite Longbow. Instead of paying a feat tax in Rapid Reload, you can get a feat that actually does something and take Manyshot.
Well, in the case of Studied Combat, the Investigator isn't proficient in Longbows and can't add Inspired to one as a weapon enchant. But the point stands with a shortbow.
Unless you meant Studied Target for the Slayer, in which case...yes. But I think the OP's point wasn't to make an optimal character, but a character that uses a hand crossbow as optimally as possible.
Agreed for the longbow bit, but as I mentioned in the OP I am aware of that and am ok with it
Unnamed Hero
Half-elf warpriest of Ondisso 5 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 60)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 38 (5d8+10)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +7; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 seeking hand crossbow +9 (1d8+1/19-20)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 2/day (DC 14, 2d6)
Warpriest Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +7):
. . 2nd—graceAPG, holy ice weaponACG, weapon of aweAPG (DC 14)
. . 1st—divine favor (3), liberating commandUC, shield of faith
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, read magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 18
Feats Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (hand crossbow)
Traits fate's favored, seeker
Skills Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +13, Use Magic Device +0; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ aura, blessing (good blessing, liberation blessing), blessings, elf blood, fervor 2d6, holy strike, liberation, sacred weapon +1
Combat Gear pearl of power (1st level); Other Gear +1 mithral agile breastplate, +1 seeking hand crossbow, cloak of resistance +1, 1,200 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura (Ex) The character has a strong aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Blessings (5/day) (Su) Pool of power used to activate Blessing abilities.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Fervor 2d6 (4/day) (Su) Standard action, touch channels positive/negative energy to heal or harm. Swift to cast spell on self.
Holy Strike (Su) Touched weapon deals +1d6 dam vs. evil foes for 1 min.
Liberation (Su) As a swift action, gain freedom of movement for 1 rd.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Hand crossbow) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Sacred Weapon +1 (5 rounds/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant weapon enhancement bonus or certain powers.
Warpriest Channel Positive Energy 2d6 (2/day, DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
+9 (1d8+1/19-20) is super unimpressive, right? Turn on point-blank shot, rapid shot, divine favor (+fate's favored), blessing of good, and sacred weapon (flame, frost, or shock) and that becomes:
+10/10 (1d8+2d6+4/19-20)
Still kind of the bottom end of the ranged combat spectrum. But if you can play through it, you'll find things start to improve very quickly.
Pick up some Deliquescent gloves and you've got:
+10/10 (1d8+3d6+4/19-20x3)
At level 6 you get two more bonus feats (if you're using your FCB for the 1/6 combat feat) so you can pick up Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots, Snap Shot, or Crossbow Mastery. And Divine Favor bumps up. So now you're looking at:
+11/11 (1d8+3d6+9/19-20x2)
At level 7 you can cast Channel Vigor for a Haste effect or +4 on ranged attacks, so:
+13/13/13 (1d8+3d6+9/19-20x2)
or
+16/16 (1d8+3d6+9/19-20x2)
At level 9 you can get improved critical (and another bump for Divine Favor):
+15/15/15/10 (1d8+3d6+10/17-20x2)
And at level 10, Blessing of Fervor, a bump in damage die, and major blessings come online:
+19/19/19/14 (1d10+3d6+10/17-20x2)
I haven't double-checked all that math, but it should be close. And that's not counting any improvements from gear, like a Belt of Incredible Dexterity. It's not Archer Fighter crazy, and you won't be able to get all of that in every fight, but it's more than competent, and you have options to adjust depending on what you're up against. High AC? Pick the ranged bonus instead of extra attack from Channel Vigor. Immune to Fire? Pick the Frost enchant from Sacred Weapon.
I'm kind of high on the warpriest right now, if it wasn't already obvious.
I have never looked closely at war priest but I am convinced to look
If AP76 is legal, Demonlord Noticula has favored weapon of hand crossbow. You will have to chaotic neutral to use her.
|
Instead of burning a feat on exotic weapon: hand crossbow, you could just dip into rogue.
I know someone's going to say that rogue sucks - but a 2-3 level dip is solid.
I must say - the only time I ever used hand crossbows was as a rogue. I was TWF, and generally used the crossbows the first round to get two sneak attacks while they were flat-footed, then dropped them to pull out my melee weapons.
Instead of burning a feat on exotic weapon: hand crossbow, you could just dip into rogue.
I know someone's going to say that rogue sucks - but a 2-3 level dip is solid.
I must say - the only time I ever used hand crossbows was as a rogue. I was TWF, and generally used the crossbows the first round to get two sneak attacks while they were flat-footed, then dropped them to pull out my melee weapons.
Personally, if I were to go that route I'd look at Investigator. They're proficient, too, have decent attack/damage building options that don't rely on flank/flat-footed, and I think they have more out-of-combat utility.
hmm a one level dip in investigator.
skills, some alchemy, unless i took an archetype.
interesting.
bah, so hard to figure this out.
I mean it will be not very effective but I think it will be fun.
hmm a one level dip in investigator.
skills, some alchemy, unless i took an archetype.
interesting.
bah, so hard to figure this out.
I mean it will be not very effective but I think it will be fun.
Effectiveness went out the window with the hand crossbow. What you have now is style.
|
|
Effectiveness went out the window with the hand crossbow. What you have now is style.hmm a one level dip in investigator.
skills, some alchemy, unless i took an archetype.
interesting.
bah, so hard to figure this out.
I mean it will be not very effective but I think it will be fun.
Well, effectiveness is relative. You won't be optimal, but you can be effective, just less effective than the guy with the Adaptive Longbow.