The main thing that would limit this kind of "loophole" as it were in the the reputation system, would be a meta-reputation. That is, other player's opinion of you outside of pure in-game reputation score.
If you have gone on a fantastic murder-spree, and gained enough notoreity through the chat and forums, people will learn about it.
"Oh did you hear about how Andius went around Thornkeep and killed people all week?"
"Yes, what a beastly rogue!"
So, all the settlement owners in NW Echo Woods decides to ban Andius from their settlements, and make him KOS to their guards, by inscribing his name in their lists of baddy-baddy-meany-guy persons.
This now has significantly decreased the places that Andius can go to train or craft or store stuff. And, even if his reputation score increases to perfect, if the people still don't like him or hate him forever, then he will be forever locked out.
Is that feasible? Is it already in the specs?
Sure, that kind of feature could itself be abused, but it would certainly cause serious/real repercussions to "role-playing" a mass murderer.
Goblin Squad Member
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The main thing that would limit this kind of "loophole" ...
Loophole wasn't exactly the word I was mulling over, but it is close. Very close.
And I can assure you that your prescription, Doc, has been openly discussed. But we don't know every detail of what the designers have wrought.
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When I get my own settlement, I will ban every player in the game, and sit all alone inside it on my gigantic pile of peppers and foxfire, laughing maniacally to the musical sound of a gaggle of giggling goblins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...freedom to play PFO has a murder sim for that period of time.
They'll still need to be on the lookout for players reporting them for formal Goblinworks review, since Ryan's said many times he won't allow their game to become a murder sim. I can imagine being able to avoid GM sanction once, but twice forms a pattern, and is prima facie evidence of pre-meditation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do people keep saying it will take 20 days to regain good standing?
HOURS not days.
I suspect twenty hours will seem like twenty days to one wandering lone in the wilderness subsisting on locusts and wild honey, especially after encumbrance weighs in every time you engage anything.
What are they going to be reported for? Winning battles too much?
That kind of system would never work well, IMHO.
It's not much of a sandbox if you can cry to mommy because your brother threw sand at you, and he gets grounded for a week.
We should get tools to self-police, and then GoblinWorks can sit back and watch the fireworks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Doc || GenAknosc
You're overestimating how much people are going to care about this kind of thing longterm.
First off, just to be clear, a murder spree of random players around an NPC starter town does not jive with the ideology of the Sentinels. So I won't be doing that.
But let's say there was a murderer willing to do so. Or even a group of murderers who went around doing this and then stopping for a day whenever they need to train skills.
Sure it will tick some groups off. A lot of them will ban them from their territory. Those groups are going to have enemies though, and their enemies may be willing to turn a blind eye to their actions if those groups are willing to focus their aggressive tendencies on the groups that turned them out.
So if I were leading "Band of Murder Hobo's" I would work a deal with those groups that we can live and trade there on any crafter / high rep alts we have, and come there for training when we let our reps get high.
Then once we have the training we need, we drop membership and go murder-hobo again.
Ryan has posed some solutions to this like losing your training past a certain tier (2-weeks after you leave the settlement if memory serves). But none of that is implemented yet and even so, it doesn't fully fix the problem.
Nothing is certain till in code, and even then things can change. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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...freedom to play PFO has a murder sim for that period of time.They'll still need to be on the lookout for players reporting them for formal Goblinworks review, since Ryan's said many times he won't allow their game to become a murder sim. I can imagine being able to avoid GM sanction once, but twice forms a pattern, and is prima facie evidence of pre-meditation.
Ryan has said he won't allow this game to be a murder sim but he has never said he will ban people who aren't griefing / exploiting and he's never said RPKing is griefing. I should know, I followed that issue pretty close as some of you might recall.
What he did say is there would be a reputation system with meaningful penalties for killing people for the lulz.
This is that system. And currently it sucks / is broken. It needs to be fixed.
Andius, if you are not targeting indiscriminately, but instead have a deal with a certain coalition to go raid and kill players of non-affiliated groups - then that is no longer being a murder-hobo. That's actually meaningful PVP in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What are they going to be reported for?
I was accepting Andius's scenario as proposed: that they are playing PFO as a murder-sim. What that looks like is in the eye of the beholder, and afterward in the eye of the Goblinworks GM who's reviewing the logs of activity for the reported character...and, I'm sure, the reporting character as well, to avoid the obvious issues of inappropriate complaints.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius, if you are not targeting indiscriminately, but instead have a deal with a certain coalition to go raid and kill players of non-affiliated groups - then that is no longer being a murder-hobo. That's actually meaningful PVP in my opinion.
And when the carebear factions start to lose too many members because of these kind of policies, and the game becomes ruled primarily by major factions all of whom have their own "Band of Murder Hobos" that fight their wars when called upon and kill everyone they want outside that specific alliance in the meantime.
What do you call that?
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This has been interesting to read. It will be interesting to see how this issue shapes up as the game progresses.
I agree, though, that 20 hours is too short. I honestly think the kinds of players that go on murder-sprees are the kinds of players who won't be bothered a bit by leaving their character logged in in some remote part of the game to recoup reputation. I'll add that those are the kinds of players that won't care at all for any kinds of social or physical rules we put in place in this game. They will happily break them all if they can because that is what they are there to be: mean, immature and hollow inside.
I would add that I think there is a difference between hired bandits going on killing sprees in an opposing settlement/coalition's territory and lone players going on killing sprees for no other purpose than to act out.
Andius, if you are not targeting indiscriminately, but instead have a deal with a certain coalition to go raid and kill players of non-affiliated groups - then that is no longer being a murder-hobo. That's actually meaningful PVP in my opinion.And when the carebear factions start to lose too many members because of these kind of policies, and the game becomes ruled primarily by major factions all of whom have their own "Band of Murder Hobos" that fight their wars and kill everyone they want outside that specific alliance in the meantime.
What do you call that?
I'd call that the game getting unbalanced and needing a balancing force to step back in, for sure. But will it happen? Is there reason to think that would happen?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd call that the game getting unbalanced and needing a balancing force to step back in, for sure. But will it happen? Is there reason to think that would happen?
Darkfall, Mortal, UO, EVE and every other Open World PvP title ever. Other than that none.
Why wait until we're sick enough to feel the symptoms when we can develop the cure beforehand?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Ahhhhh. My mistake. So you can kill whomever you wish, whenever you wish, for as long as you want and the go get your skill training the next day if you play long enough / just leave PFO running.
So the system is worse than I credited it for.
As long as you aren't griefing. Why should it be different?
EVE is actually fully self-policing. A huge coalition brought a bunch of corp alliances together and has essentially created galaxy wide peace, or at worst a cold-war stalemate.
If anything they need the game managers to come in and stir s+%~ up so more warfare happens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE is actually fully self-policing. A huge coalition brought a bunch of corp alliances together and has essentially created galaxy wide peace, or at worst a cold-war stalemate.
If anything they need the game managers to come in and stir s!*@ up so more warfare happens.
A stalemate between major alliances does not create safety for the individuals and groups that haven't sworn their souls to them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is our intention to apply some of the real world lessons learned in our major cities by focusing on "broken windows" - that is, stopping minor transgressions of our social behavior policies before they escalate out of hand. It is my opinion that doing so will reduce antisocial behavior substantially. People who want to be anonymous jerks will not get much pleasure out of being quickly and unceremoniously silenced, booted, or banned. Without the ability to encite "rage & tears", those folks will have no good reason to haunt Pathfinder Online.
Part of the goal we have to have as a community is explaining to people who get whacked why and to give some meaning to the loss or to ID players who are just whacking people for the lulz and either seek to reform them or excise them.
We are going to break this pattern and we are going to redefine those preconceptions. In order to do that we must repeatedly and powerfully shock the system. One of those shocks is a negative feedback loop that links random killing to gimping character development.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suspect twenty hours will seem like twenty days to one wandering lone in the wilderness subsisting on locusts and wild honey, especially after encumbrance weighs in every time you engage anything.Why do people keep saying it will take 20 days to regain good standing?
HOURS not days.
Anyone else keep thinking of that scene from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suspect twenty hours will seem like twenty days to one wandering lone in the wilderness subsisting on locusts and wild honey, especially after encumbrance weighs in every time you engage anything.
Or 20 seconds to the person who just banks their gear or hands it off to an alt, then leaves their character sitting there while they do other things.
@Nihimon- The negative feedback loop is the reputation, which is broken. That's what we're discussing here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius, if you are not targeting indiscriminately, but instead have a deal with a certain coalition to go raid and kill players of non-affiliated groups - then that is no longer being a murder-hobo. That's actually meaningful PVP in my opinion.And when the carebear factions start to lose too many members because of these kind of policies, and the game becomes ruled primarily by major factions all of whom have their own "Band of Murder Hobos" that fight their wars when called upon and kill everyone they want outside that specific alliance in the meantime.
I don't know about others, but I call that being "Gainfully Employed".
I honestly believe Ryan wants to emulate the mega alliance vs. mega alliance warfare that is found in EvE.
Eventually the mega alliances will use smaller entities to fight as their proxies. At that point the mercenaries dreams will come true. There will be plenty of work for us all. Whether we are focused on military conflict or economic warfare, it's all the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah hell. I guess I live in Aragon. Carry on with it the way it is, I'm sure it will make some of us happy. And when you get tired of your utopian dream being trampled by bloodthirsty bandits killing whoever they want without major consequences again and again and again then we can talk about fixing this.
Perhaps if it's still broken enough by EE I can use it for my own advantage in my war against Brighthaven and Phaeros.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you think I will be able to abuse these mechanics in my war against the Halfling scum? G*%&#!n Halflings, giving us real small people a bad name.
Gnome Power!
Sure. You can use it for wantton slaughter based on any provocation imaginable.
Don't like a group? Check
Want to kill anyone in their hex? Check
Don't like a player race? Check
Don't like people with silly names? Check
Don't like people wearing green hats? Check
PFO with a weak reputation system is the next best thing for wantton slaughter than no reputation system at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main thing that would limit this kind of "loophole" as it were in the the reputation system, would be a meta-reputation. That is, other player's opinion of you outside of pure in-game reputation score.
If you have gone on a fantastic murder-spree, and gained enough notoreity through the chat and forums, people will learn about it.
"Oh did you hear about how Andius went around Thornkeep and killed people all week?"
"Yes, what a beastly rogue!"
So, all the settlement owners in NW Echo Woods decides to ban Andius from their settlements, and make him KOS to their guards, by inscribing his name in their lists of baddy-baddy-meany-guy persons.
This now has significantly decreased the places that Andius can go to train or craft or store stuff. And, even if his reputation score increases to perfect, if the people still don't like him or hate him forever, then he will be forever locked out.
Is that feasible? Is it already in the specs?
Sure, that kind of feature could itself be abused, but it would certainly cause serious/real repercussions to "role-playing" a mass murderer.
In EVE that is exactly the sort of reputation people strive (often unsuccessfully) to achieve.
Its actually very hard to be the "arch villain" in a game that encourages villainy and scandalous behavior as valued "player generated content" "D
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO with a weak reputation system is the next best thing for wantton slaughter than no reputation system at all.
I really don't see it as a weakened reputation system. You won;t be able to train your character, nor go near a town for 20 hours or game time. You will also be a cheaper (reputation-wise) kill for anyone else.
Although I can't imaging why GW chose to have high rep represented with a RED TRIANGLE, rather than a BLUE TRIANGLE???
It's like they are trying to push back on a decade's worth of norms in MMOs.
Of your list of provocations you forgot one...
"You logged into the game.. check!"
;-}
Just think Andius, it will be that much easier for you to slaughter the wicked!
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO with a weak reputation system is the next best thing for wantton slaughter than no reputation system at all.I really don't see it as a weakened reputation system. You won;t be able to train your character, nor go near a town for 20 hours or game time.
What does that really matter if you have a mule accounts and a character that's older than 2-weeks?
I mean being attacked by anyone anywhere is a penalty but the upside is being able to attack anyone anywhere. Fair trade IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although I can't imaging why GW chose to have high rep represented with a RED TRIANGLE, rather than a BLUE TRIANGLE???Yes, that is something of an oddity, isn't it. Not that blue is necessarily the color needed, but red is simply counterintuitive.
Continuing along this discussion of displaying PvP icons:
Reputation Triangle:
Blue = High Rep
White = Moderate Rep
Red = Low Rep
Additional Changes Needed:
When you accidentally or intentionally hit some one, your aggressor "flag" appears on the right-hand side as a tiny Red Star (Yeah, they seem to have gotten the idea if using red there).
That "Red Star" should appear just above the Feature Bar, Center Screen and the Red Star should be about the size of an American Dime. The Red a Star will appear as flashing on the first hit, and go solid when you have hit the PC twice.
When you are hit by a player, you should get a flashing, White Shield icon, same location and size as the Red Star.