reply to stuff
stuffWe will just have to see how it works in game after the change.
The only other comment I would add is the bias towards gangs for PvP makes sense but in PvE it is really going to disadvantage certain time zones and people with real life commitments.
The prime aussie playtime sees the server nearly empty, half a dozen people in thornkeep and the starter towns empty. There are obviously people out gatehring and fighting somewhere but you never see them. I have been staying up till 4.00 am just to play in a busier time.
I have one online aussie friend in Keepers and Alpha (plays a wizard) and we occasionally party together and it makes everything a pushover. She has regularly tried to talk people into partying up during aussie prime hours with limited success.
Also many people with familes and children are not able to commit to group activities as they may have to leave at any time due to real life issues.
I would point you do not get this bias against solo PvE in EVE it is commonplace to solo level 4 and 5 missions in EVE (though the level 5s are all in losec and your carrier may end up ganked by a roaming PvP gang). Eve does have incursion PvE that requires a fleet but very few people run incursions for the reasons already described above. PvP in EVE is very much a blobbing event.
I suppose the other issue I have is that whilst archers and staff wizards can do OK under the new artillary regime it is not the same for clerics and rogues both of who have ranged attacks of 20m or less.
Fair points. For the record, I changed my stance on how to treat wands, short bows and clerics and made it very clear a few times in different places. Those three weapons should not be stationary, but rather slowed.
Right now the game is in Alpha and there are, maybe, 1,000 players, I understand. On Tuesday we will be adding another... 6,000? Aussie prime time will probably look more active then.
Being able to dedicate to group activities is a good point. The thing that will remain to be seen, however, is if someone who tends to log on at particular times (we are creatures of habit, even when we aren't) doesn't find other people logging in at the same time that they can join up with. People who are not accustomed to working in groups will not like being forced to work in groups, certainly. But we do not know at this point if finding a group to run with will be really difficult or relatively easy.
(EDIT: this is an honest question, not a rhetorical argument question- although it sounds like one.) I am not clear on how it is any different if someone has to go AFK in a themepark versus in PFO while doing PvE. I understand some themeparks have basic automation to keep you with your team; but otherwise, what is the difference? It is a nuisance, certainly. But will it be any more of a nuisance than some other MMO themepark?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as terminology goes, here's the problem I see. Assume a significantly large forum population N.
Player 1: We need to talk about leashing.
Dev: We don't technically use leashing. We can talk about how agro works, but to communicate we need to have a shared vocabulary.
Player 2: What's wrong with the word leash? We know it means X and Y.
Player 3: Except in some cases where it means X and Z.
Player 4: Doesn't leashing mean X and Y and W?
.
.
.
Player (N-1): Jeeze, people, it's leashing. Simply X. That's all.
Player (N): I agree with the player that said it was S and T, except on Wednesdays.
N Players to the Devs: We demand you talk about agro! You need to call it leashing and you need to make it make sense to all of our divergent opinions!Is it any wonder that the Devs ask for a shared vocabulary first? Heck, is it any wonder that Devs in many games just avoid their forums?
I think to move the conversation forward we need to understand that a conversation is two-way communication. It involves speaking and listening. If one party (the Devs) have pretty much said they aren't using leashing, then shouldn't the second party (us players) listen, instead of talking over the top of them and shouting them down?
This will also probably help you get your ideas heard. Just sayin'.
Goblin Squad Member
|
(EDIT: this is an honest question, not a rhetorical argument question- although it sounds like one.) I am not clear on how it is any different if someone has to go AFK in a themepark versus in PFO while doing PvE. I understand some themeparks have basic automation to keep you with your team; but otherwise, what is the difference? It is a nuisance, certainly. But will it be any more of a nuisance than some other MMO themepark?
For me the difference is that in a themepark, it is just PVE so those left in the group can adjust the strategy to account for the AFK player rather easily .. even pausing in the game to do so ... but in PVP adjusting at a moment's notice may not be possible at all .. are the opposing PVP players going to say .. "oh .. ok you just lost someone, we'll give you some time to develop a new strategy"?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In PvP an afk player is a condition that just has to be accepted, like a higher or lower IQ or the time zone you occupy.
I see the problem there as one of those optimal-solutions are the problem problems. Optimal solutions are as much a problem as lame solutions. They interfere with the play.
Currently the best counter to character optimization is the empowered noob. The archery role shouldn't be nerfed if only just to frustrate the min-max nazis.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is no problem - really.
MVP + feedback = continuous improvement.
I play a ranged fighter as my main with a longbow - I will not be nerfed. (*Disclaimer* This may change based on my experience with alpha.)
I also play a wizzy as my secondary - I will not be nerfed.
We are in alpha and I will test, try and adapt my style to better suit my intended outcomes. Changes are expected and I am here to have fun (and test while in alpha) so I am happy to actually see and try out these potential changes before I provide feedback. Theorising about possible negative impacts is all well and good for some, but I want to be doing the do so I can help provide actual feedback on what does work and what does not - informed commentary on changes and their impact from my perspective.
Will I be rooted while firing a bow or casting a spell? Who cares, i'm playing the game I love!
Let's stop throwing our hands up at the first sign of change... we all knew what we were getting when we signed up for alpha. Roll with it, provide feedback and try to crowdforge this thing into something better!
- Jasc the Seer
I'm glad the devs made a new thread, I have been reading the forums for the last few weeks and this one really had me worried, especially given its title. As a newbie here on forums and not even in game yet, waiting for EE on thursday, to see this thread made me cringe.
I understand both the leashing and aggro mechanics comments from both the devs and community but to see it waylaid here back and forth just made me worry.
1. That the devs would implement a stop gap game mechanic that utterly throws a major game play feature like ranged attacks into a twirl only days before the major release of EE.
2. The term nerf, implies to remove a feature that is thought to be overpowered. Meaning they've been using this to wipe camps that weren't meant to be solo'd. Yet I still see where this is viable from some roles in the community, yet this one is nerfed and so close to launch of EE?
3. That a player has left because of it, this should be the build community stage not toss them away like 10 day old cheese as the community "seemed" to have done in this case with all us new guys coming in shortly.
4. To implement a mechanic, that greatly alters game play so close to EE that is listed as a stop-gap/interim measure but cannot be pulled out of the game for at "least a minimum of 2 weeks" if I have read these boards correctly, that's not a stop gap, that's an implemented feature that needs thorough testing and feedback and quickly.
5. Terminology is important in communication both ways, but if it talks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, most of the time its a duck. I see the point of the root of the matter most of the guys against the "leash" as iterated have made and I think there are better options for the agro mechanic. I look forward to reading that threat mechanic thread now....
2 cents done...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
3. That a player has left because of it, this should be the build community stage not toss them away like 10 day old cheese as the community "seemed" to have done in this case with all us new guys coming in shortly.
Sorry, but if a player appears in the community on the 11th in the middle of Alpha, gets upset at the devs over game mechanics or how they didn't show him enough respect, and then announces that we won't be blessed with his company any more on the 20th... That's pretty much 9- or 10-day old cheese, or something.
Nobody tossed him out. He chose not to stay - and needed to be public in his exit. Were the devs supposed to rework their design to meet his vision?
There's going to be some angst over every change. The angst over fixing archers in place doesn't even begin to compare the pages upon pages of angst we saw when people were told they wouldn't be able to stealth into melee striking range.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I took that *ahem* to simply be a clearing of his throat.
It might mean "That was intemperate, Urman." (And yes, I probably was intemperate. I apologize.) It might mean "That was intemperate. I secretly approve, but am too dignified to say so." *ahem* can cover a multitude of sins.
To Rorin Doombringer: yes, building community is important. Selling the game is important. But just like a shoe store, there will always be people that come into a game, look around, and decide they don't see what they're looking for.
I can't speak for Goblinworks, of course, but I think that anyone coming in at the start of EE is going to have to roll with changes, more changes, reversals of changes, edits, errata, etc. Lots of mechanics in the course of EE are likely to seriously alter the way the game is played, and it's going to be happening while we're playing the game for keeps.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
*ahem*Ok, normally you a very clear (or try to be)when you write, but you lost me here. What does "ahem" mean? I am not familiar with lingo...
Hrm... I probably shouldn't have posted anything at all. I certainly didn't mean it as a judgment on the tenor of Urman's post. I apologize for any confusion I caused.
It seems obvious to me that Goblinworks cannot adjust their plans according to the demands of a single customer, no matter how adamantly those demands are made.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hrm... I probably shouldn't have posted anything at all. I certainly didn't mean it as a judgment on the tenor of Urman's post. I apologize for any confusion I caused.
Apology for confusing me accepted! (grin)
Now back to the our regularly scheduled gnashing of teeth about (pick your favorite) What is with this games Graphics, Ranged Attacks are OP, OMG the Nerfing has begun, PVE Mobs are too dumb, No reason to PVP/Not worth it, There is a Bug in my crafting soup.... :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about gnashing our teeth about who's sword/bow/staff is bigger?
Seriously, though, Calistin left of his own accord after accepting my apology for being a right thorough ass to him. And no one at any point told him, out right (to my knowledge), to leave, etc. I'd say the community is clean for its part in all that. Maybe not perfect; but clean.
haha this thread is still going despite a new thread?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
haha this thread is still going despite a new thread?
The new thread is on threat mechanics.
It misses other things people might want to discuss like the fact that balancing for the occasional PvP may make life impossible for new players unless they can get hold of armor or longbow/staff.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
haha this thread is still going despite a new thread?The new thread is on threat mechanics.
It misses other things people might want to discuss like the fact that balancing for the occasional PvP may make life impossible for new players unless they can get hold of armor or longbow/staff.
Hopefully, getting hold of those things should become much easier tomorrow, when more monsters have a chance to drop starter loot, and you can buy and sell stuff without face-to-face barter.