Goblin Squad Member
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Been playing a Wizard with my wife's heavy fighter, this has worked surprisingly well, though honestly she puts out more damage and has more kills while we group, in addition to being much much tougher.Though she is not as effective at soloing as a I am. I have the ability to do better targeted dps and more mobility. Now that all ranged is about to be nerfed with the rooting the ranged user in place, I will no longer have the ability to maneuver, and being about twice as squishy as she is that means I will either die due to standing still while mob deal out 50 to 100 damage, or not deal much in the way of dps, because I will have to run about and be at best limit crowd control. Instead I will drop the spell book and pick up a sword put on some heavy armor, a two-hander and a bow and deal dps that way till the complaints about over powered whatever has the Nerf bat swing somewhere else. Honestly barring pure solo play I think close up heavy fighters and ranged char are fairly close in the ability to deal out mayhem and survive. My issue here is not so much this particular nerf (though I find it irritating) I more am disappointed in the nerfing by popular complaint/demand, to address larger issues. If I have learned anything in mmo's: is people are always going to complain about some class/ability being over powered, occasionally they are right most of the time they are not. However, thoughtless broad spectrum nerfing is never a good answer to the real issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...they have the short end of the stick.
I play a Cleric, and I'm fine, given that Ryan's made it clear that we're testing the "Stationary" change, and it's not necessarily permanent (emphasis added):
The team has a number of systems in progress which will moderate the effectiveness of ranged attacks, but we are uncertain when those systems will be deployed.
As an interim step, we are considering implementing a rule where a character is forced into the Stationary condition during a ranged attack. The tech we have available right now will make the character Stationary during the entire attack animation which is a substantial length of time.
We would like the community's feedback on this idea but we are still not sure we will implement it even if it proves highly popular. Right now we are working on 2 week build cycle so barring some extraordinary events, once we implement this rule, it would take 2 weeks before we could remove it.
Stephen's said (emphasis added):
Feats: Temporarily changed all ranged attacks to apply Stationary (you cannot move while the attack is animating). This is a short-term measure to curb the current uberness of ranged attacks until more nuanced tech is implemented and can replace this measure. As a consequence, attacks that were not previously designed as stationary will have cheaper stamina costs (i.e., attacks were not rebalanced to account for the new restriction, so got the basic benefit of reduced cost).
When a monster closes with me, I switch from ranged orisons--which I was already using while standing still--to melee ones, and finish the fight, still standing still.
I have to agree with the OP, what is sad is this is all based on a flawed premise of ranged can kite/solo a WHOLE CAMP which is false.
What they actually are doing is kiting a couple critters in the camp and then exploiting the leash mechanic to reset the rest of the mob.
I do not see why they simply make it so no attacks while sprinting or maybe half speed when kiting backwards or somesuch.
Just because it is alpha is no reason to use a stupid mechanic like rooting. There are other better things they can try.
Overdraw for example already roots you for a few seconds which is enough to get you killed if you use it at the wrong time.
Calis and Calis(tin) make a decent point, but yeah, it's Alpha. That literally is an excuse for "stupid" mechanics, just like NaNoWriMo is an excuse for "stupid" writing. It's a test run.
There is no leashing in Pathfinder Online, despite what people keep saying. The game does not work the way you think it works.
By leashing I mean mobs turn around and run back to there original spots when you run away long enough, now whether this work via how far they are from their spawn points or how long you run without attacking them is besides the point.
You can kill a few critters run away and when mobs turn around sprint towards the mob and attack and deal damage while they are unable to turn around and fight back at least till they get back to there original point.
That is what is causing ranged to be a problem, that and melee attacks seem a bit low on the damage side.
Most games avoid some of these issues by making the mobs life completely refill and making them temp invulnerable while they run back to their "spot".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Three things, first off alhpa is only for 4 more days ish, second ist more that this is in response to the complaining and something better can be tried, finale this is directed at TV7 Jazz, if you happy with how a cleric plays pls post how your getting them to work and some idea's. While I am not playing and have not played a cleric I have two friends who say they are hopeless and underpowered, both solo and grouping. I know one of them died over and over again "not sure why" Do to the fact I keep giving him new equipment to replace the stuff he breaks. So honestly I am just speaking through heresy from the cleric perspective
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is a "nerf" but it is a try at toning down the ranged superiority.
After nerf for Longbow:
1. From max target range, Basic Longbow Strike 1.
2. Target now has "opportunity" or some debuff. Basic Longbow Exploit 1.
+0 Hunter's Bow.
All "whites" are dead. Some yellows require a third shot.
Most white and yellow archers take only 1 hit of Basic Longbow Exploit while they suffer "opportunity".
It will slow down the rate of gathering loot, recipes, spells, etc... It is hardly the end of the world though. We shouldn't be invincible (while solo) to groups of Ogres anyway. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to suggest that we rename this thread "So the experimentation begins."
Because that's what it is. An experiment. A clearly-stated-to-be temporary experiment to see how this will effect gameplay and to see if it will stop people from worrying about the overpowered nature of ranged weapons.
If they said they were going to remove all ranged weapons from the game to rework them and add them back in when they feel melee can keep up - I would be fine with that, too. I say let them try things - this is still alpha and they could still push back Early Enrollment, even if they don't actually want to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...pls post how your getting them to work...
I'm trying to be a "pure" spellcaster, to see how well that works. I've equipped the basic focus from the Focus Supplier, and set, as my Feats:
.Primary
Icicle - 20m range, targets Reflex, small stacking slow, chance to impose Flat-Footed, small Cold damage
Doom - 20m range, targets Will, small stacking malus to Base Attack and Base Defence
Bleeding Touch - melee range, targets Fortitude, chance to impose Opportunity, stacking Bleeding damage
Secondary
Holy Lance - 20m range, targets Reflex, stacking malus to Base Attack and Perception if target is Dazed, medium Holy damage
Lightning Arc - 20m range, targets Reflex, dispels buffs on target if it has Opportunity, stacking reduction of Stamina and Stamina Regeneration if target has Opportunity, medium Electric damage
Touch of Darkness - melee range, targets Will, large stacking malus to Base Attack and Perception if target has recently been successfully dispelled, large Negative damage
I close to just when my toolbar icons light up to show I'm in spell-range, then hit the target with Icicle to get its attention. This is the same range when monsters notice me, so I can't waste any time.
If the monster is going to close with me, I make sure to hit it with Doom on its way in, then start in with Bleeding Touch and Touch of Darkness, both of which do admirable amounts of harm to the target. If it's a ranged monster, I close on it, casting Doom as I go--I'm already giving up Opportunity by moving, so I figure the additional Opportunity from the spell-casting won't be worse--and then switch to the melee orisons.
If I get badly hurt, which doesn't happen in every fight, I use an expendable heal (gotten from a drop) during the fight, or Minor Cure a few times after, if waiting for my Hit Points to come back up takes "too long", a measure that varies situationally.
I've no doubt whatsoever that I've not hit upon some magical key to how-to-play-a-Cleric, and I'm likely doing something incredibly bone-headed as well, but I'm enjoying myself capitally, and I'm able to stay alive long enough to generate notes and bug-reports for the devs, and to occasionally be able to share a word or two of advice with other players. I look forward, of course, to hearing commentary from my fellow Clerics on their discoveries about how to play.
You obviously don't understand the purpose or philosophy of alpha testing.Testing the features that are supposed to be in the game eventually. You know, like non-stationary ranged attacks.
If you hae been reading Ryan's posts on Ideascale, he implied (more than implied) that the future of ranged attacks is rooting. But the rooting will be for far shooter increments than this fix will be.
I have to agree with the OP, what is sad is this is all based on a flawed premise of ranged can kite/solo a WHOLE CAMP which is false.
What they actually are doing is kiting a couple critters in the camp and then exploiting the leash mechanic to reset the rest of the mob.
I do not see why they simply make it so no attacks while sprinting or maybe half speed when kiting backwards or somesuch.
First off, you should have watched me tonight. I was kiting WHOLE CAMPS! *Gasp* The premise is true! Second of all, if you were following this issue closely enough to be able to condemn it, you would have read Stephen's post that clearly explained how leashing does not exist in Pathfinder. 3rd of all, it already is half speed while kiting backwards. If you were playing ranged in Alpha you'd know that. 4th of all, stationary on everything is the easy fix they can implement while they try to blast a rocket ship to the moon in less than a week (you realize they will be up all night tonight getting the patches ready for tomorrow, don't you?)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I close to just when my toolbar icons light up to show I'm in spell-range, then hit the target with Icicle to get its attention. [...] If it's a ranged monster, I close on it, casting Doom as I go--I'm already giving up Opportunity by moving, so I figure the additional Opportunity from the spell-casting won't be worse--and then switch to the melee orisons
Aren't you going to be rooted after you hit it with Icicle? That strategy seems to work pre-nerf, but post-nerf you would have to forego the initial Icicle against ranged, right? Or is the damage you deal usually worth the damage you take from the ranged? If not, you're basically limited to running up and using melee-spells. And I wonder, are those superior to hitting with a melee weapon, instead?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aren't you going to be rooted after you hit it with Icicle? That strategy seems to work pre-nerf, but post-nerf you would have to forego the initial Icicle against ranged, right? Or is the damage you deal usually worth the damage you take from the ranged? If not, you're basically limited to running up and using melee-spells. And I wonder, are those superior to hitting with a melee weapon, instead?
I'll be rooted for the animation-time of Icicle, yes, but then I'll be able to move. The only spell I cast on the run right now is a Doom against ranged as I close on them, to try to hurt their Base Attack against me a bit; that'll change.
I could use non-spell weapons, of course, but I'm making the best attempt I can to avoid min/maxing in that particular way, specifically by trying out an "all spell all the time" play-style. There had been so many comments in chat and on both boards about spell-casting Clerics being at the bottom of the out-going damage rankings that I thought I'd see if they remained viable even so.
My opinion--mine alone--is that it's fine for now. There're enough other places I'd prefer Goblinworks be able to put their limited resources, and there are at least two of this week's patch notes that had hit me very badly (click-through-the-toolbar accidental targeting, and -7500 Reputation not being the absolute worst value), but won't again; those are precisely the changes I wanted to see first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Edam, I think the issue there has been so many fewer people making noise about that capability, whether bragging or complaining. It's impressive to watch a proficient melee-er, for sure.
Given that monsters are intended only as mobile gathering-nodes, I'm uncertain why--beyond some folks stating "this means there's only one way to play"--people care how quickly one player can de-nude the landscape of monsters, unless it's that a group can't do it much better. Some Achievements are much, much easier to get, yes, but more Achievements are planned.
I've seen some people say it's boring to be able to kill monsters so easily, but my answer there is precisely the same as when the topic of perma-death rears its ugly head: "You don't have to play a boring way; play a non-boring way instead. You may not, however, impose your preference upon others."
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, thoughtless broad spectrum nerfing is never a good answer to the real issue.
Thoughtless nerfing is not what is being done, so what was your better way? The new mechanic needs to be tested to see if it brings ranged attacks ( Temporarily) closer to what the devs planned them to be.
There is no leashing in Pathfinder Online, despite what people keep saying. The game does not work the way you think it works.
What people are talking about is that the mobs run back at a set distance. You can easily separate them. And at the furthest point, like say you attack a group of wolves... you kill the alpha then you start hitting the "white wolf" with your bow, if you had been walking back (unless I am just some prodigy of intuitively controlling aggro range) you will never get attacked by the melee wolf. It will turn around and go back.
If you pull a bit harder, you can easily separate a creature from its ogre mob. The stickiness of aggro is much better on ranged attackers because they hit you. If the enemy doesn't hit you, I would look back at if there's a way to change this, it will never hit you assuming you walk back.
I can't really imagine that this will change the game IF people take less shots. Like only exploit opposed to constant dps. And once an enemy turns around and begins to run back, it is free hits all the way home. Then you repeat.
Edit: Not to mention the fact that you get a whole team of long-bowers or even just a couple of them... I don't know how that affects anything. The issue persists.
However, thoughtless broad spectrum nerfing is never a good answer to the real issue.Thoughtless nerfing is not what is being done, so what was your better way? The new mechanic needs to be tested to see if it brings ranged attacks ( Temporarily) closer to what the devs planned them to be.
epicdoublepost.
They need to make it so you have to spec a wep to use it well. They need to look at always having opportunity while running unless they want to somehow cancel this for higher level mobs and allow players to get a feat like "defensive charge" or something. Otherwise, the fact that you can just get popped for 200+ dmg as much as stam allows is ridic.
I want to see a game that has good bows ... but that you have to spec them. They really needed to work on hit rate, dmg, and opportunity, imo. As well as mob strength (if they were concerned about pve.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no leashing in Pathfinder Online, despite what people keep saying. The game does not work the way you think it works.What people are talking about is that the mobs run back at a set distance. ...
I think that the disconnect is that some think mobs run back at a set distance and actually that leash isn't there. The devs have said that.
Mobs gain agro by things like someone getting close, them taking damage, them doing damage to a target, or some other things. They lose agro over time. If mobs run back at about the same distance when players repeat a technique, it might look like the distance is set. The mobs agro can be subject to variables and the players are putting in the same (or similar) variables each pull. Maybe the players expect to see a leash, so they interpret the event as a leash.
There is no leashing in Pathfinder Online, despite what people keep saying. The game does not work the way you think it works.What people are talking about is that the mobs run back at a set distance. ...I think that the disconnect is that some think mobs run back at a set distance and actually that leash isn't there. The devs have said that.
So in reality it is a set distance for each variable, eh?
To me, that is a still set distance. Maybe the idea of a leash means something else, but to say that the AI won't behave in the same way each time and then run exactly back to spawn is wrong.
So, if you hit them, they will run a set distance, if they hit you, they will run a set distance, if you don't hit them, etc. No matter whether this is what people define as a true leash, it is a very simple system that can be exploited. It can be treated as a leash or, due to the ability to adapt (e.g. keep walking backwards), you can figure it out easily.
Also, it seems the only way to get non-leash aggro onto yourself is to shoot every enemy before one is dead and/or let them hit you. No one would do that unless they were just clowning around.
The 'leash' part relates to the ones that did not get hit or hit. They leash back, every time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you've ever moved in a circle while walking backwards, you know it isn't a leash, because sometimes they'll be right in front of you, and very close to the base but just suddenly stop paying attention to you and walk right past you while you keep shooting their buddy. It really does look like "Well, you're boring. I'm going to find something else to do, whether you kill my friend or not."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe the idea of a leash means something else.
This is clearly the issue. Ryan feels that a leash is like a standard pet leash. They can get this far from the tie point(which might be flexible, but remains a tie point) and no farther, no matter what's happening. In PFO, if you maintain sufficient threat and/or take sufficient damage to let the wildlife feel like it isn't wasting its time, it will follow you literally forever because the threat assessment will remain sufficiently high. Distance has no part of their math. It is purely how mistreated the wildlife feels, and how successful it is being at doing something about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He's already said it's threat based.
(wild example, not having any basis in fact.)
You catch my attention by shooting my buddy. You get 50 points of threat (40 for entering my space, 10 for hitting my buddy). I come after you.
I hit you for 10 damage. I gain 10 but lose 20 for it being a round. You ignore me (c'ause you're kiting and focus on someone else). Still 40, still interested.
I hit you for five. I gain 5, but lose 20. Total 25, still interested.
You hit me for 20 (accidentally), I hit you for ten. Gain 30, lose 20, 35, still interested.
I miss, you ignore me -20. total 15, still interested
I miss, You ignore me -20. total below zero, no longer interested.
If you've ever moved in a circle while walking backwards, you know it isn't a leash, because sometimes they'll be right in front of you, and very close to the base but just suddenly stop paying attention to you and walk right past you while you keep shooting their buddy. It really does look like "Well, you're boring. I'm going to find something else to do, whether you kill my friend or not."
I feel that happens every time. I wonder how hard it would be to code in that IF a mob enemy is taking damage, the threat should be the same as if you took damage. The only time they should possibly split is when the damage is coming from multiple sources. I could see that being an issue later on.
I just feel this pve should be easy working-as-intended idea is no good for gameplay. The environment should at least have guys that can kill you. Now you can just go right by them. Even through them.
Imagine your friend is playing the game for the first time and you are in the mountains gathering ore and he's like woah there are ogres, gotta be careful. And you're like yeah kinda... but generally you should still be able to get away so don't worry.
Some pve should be easy. There should be stuff that is equivalent to farming pigs or cows or whatever. But I really feel at the higher level there should be serious enemies.
Make purple ranged enemies. Give their mob a 5-10% speed boost. There are so many what I feel are easy solutions (basically to the point of just swapping enemy skill bars and attributes in most cases) to make it so that you can see at least some enemy... and be afraid. I want the environment to be a variable at least.
Edit: The "science" behind hunting enemies with a longbow is easy... go after the ones that have range first cuz they are squishy as well as they are the ones who stick. Maybe it's semantics to say leash or threat, but you can know an enemy will stop right in front of you and not have to worry. When, really, it should have threat based on the other part of the mob getting hit as well as once it closes to a certain distance it should stick until you get a certain distance away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes. The threat formulae might need tinkering, but I think that will improve fairly well with time, if they want it to. On the other hand, if they want dumb mobs to be gear farms, then making the mobs smart to overcome archers will have repercussions all down the line for non-archers.
Yes. The threat formulae might need tinkering, but I think that will improve fairly well with time, if they want it to. On the other hand, if they want dumb mobs to be gear farms, then making the mobs smart to overcome archers will have repercussions all down the line for non-archers.
it already has. This is no issue if you aren't bowing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO the "leash" / "no-leash" discussion is about as meaningful as the "role" / "class" thing. They are slightly different but everyone instinctively knows what you mean when you say "class" or "leash".
Rather than coming back at complaints that "the leash is too short" with "there is no leash" GW needs to take that feedback and realize the factors that generate aggro in their aggro-leash / the rate at which aggro bleeds off generate a situation where aggro is bleeding off too fast, creating among their players a feeling that "the leash is too short."
You're community is giving you valuable feedback, stop sitting there and complaining they aren't using the right terms, take a second to think, and acknowledge you understand the source of their complaints then do something about it.
Really this is supposed to be a company all about caring what the customer has to say. I almost never get rude with service people but if they serve me half-cooked home fries and I ask them to cook my hash browns a bit more to which they reply "you don't have any hash browns" and not even "did you mean home fries?" I'm going to get pissed because they know damn well what I meant and that's just s%~+ty customer service to not even agknowldge it.
This is the time for them to figure out and get the balancing correct, not after release. I am all for this, they are smart and can figure it out. With end game being PVP, balance is a must. Before this change everyone would have to be range to even compete, no need for melee. Give them time and let them figure it out, its for the best of the game, which I think we all want.
If they do not get balance correct the game will certainly suffer.
And as stated above this is Alpha, we have alot of changes ahead. The last Alpha I was in only had 2 play areas up and running, lol, they are way ahead of that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fair enough, Andius, but when the chef is saying there's nothing wrong with the home fries because they want them to be that way, but the sauce that goes on them isn't ready and the only way he can cook your hash browns more is to cook everyone's, and then they'll be crappy with the home-fry sauce, you need to allow that just maybe he's not ignoring you even though you seem to be speaking a different language.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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There's a meaningful conversation to be had about the mechanics.
If one side of that conversation is talking about mechanics that don't exist and a way of working that isn't what is happening then the conversation can't be very useful.
We need to try to be precise with our language and our definitions so that everyone who is taking part can stay in synch.
There is no leashing in the game. So discussions about leash distance or whatever are useless. A bunch of comments about leashing based on how that mechanic works in other games isn't helpful. And people who read those comments, and don't know that the underlying premise is simply wrong, can be deadended before they have a chance to be constructively critical.
If people want to talk about the aggro mechanic, let's talk about the aggro mechanic. But let's not call it leashing when it's not a leash.
It's actually a very sophisticated system that was built to have a lot of interesting variables and potential extensions that could be implemented over time if that is what the community decides is a good priority. As with all things, it is right now in a "first iteration state". It doesn't exhibit complex behaviors or variables or react to what players are doing because that was not the objective the designers gave the programmers. The objective was "get the basic functionality working", and they have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A better way how about only being able to cast/range attack what you are facing? maybe a 180 degree forward arch. @ Xaer I play Pathfind this game is only vaguely simulator to the pen and paper, and that was stated to be so from the beginning.
This is already planned. Though I haven't seen why it isn't implemented yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First off I've barely spoken on this whole leasing debate. I understood the problem the first time Stephen explained it and since then I've seen Ryan jumping on multiple people saying "there is no leash" and not addressing the roots of their complaints. I trust Ryan is not an idiot. I bought multiple month one EE accounts, one with the brewmaster perk based on my assumption he's not. I know he knows what his players are complaining about so the fact he's using the "there is no leash" argument rather than talking about why they aren't willing to adjust the factors of their aggro-leash to make it harder to break really pisses me off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, I understand the mobs aren't returning to their spawn points because of a "leash". However, what I'm experiencing in-game does not jibe with the mechanic that's been described.
When I clear Ogre Camps with two Ogre Hurlers, I target one from max range, hit it with Killing Joke, then back up while hitting it pretty much as often as I can with Hellflume. And yet, the Hurler that I'm hitting will almost always turn around and run back to its spawn point before I can kill it.
Is the aggro decay so much that spamming Hellflume isn't enough to keep the Hurler's attention?
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I know he knows what his players are complaining about so the fact he's using the "there is no leash" argument rather than talking about why they aren't willing to adjust the factors of their aggro-leash to make it harder to break really pisses me off.
Maybe you should just stop taking things so personal and get with the social contract that Ryan has extended and actually learn to use the correct terms. ;)
Is the aggro decay so much that spamming Hellflume isn't enough to keep the Hurler's attention?
Going to take a stab and say you are not generating enough threat to keep it interested, while it too is not damaging you enough to make a case to stick around.
That's my best guess though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the first not-so-complex step is upping the ammount of aggro generated by doing damage to NPCs. The second more complex step is making that aggro shared by all nearby NPCs so Curly and Mo the bandits don't lose interest just because it's Larry you are killing.
After that (if still needed) you can decrease the rate at which aggro is lost.
Finally you implement a frenzy mechanic. Basically if you hold the threat of a spawn too long without killing it they "frenzy" and their movement speed increases by a lot. Long enough you won't frenzy mobs just by running by them. Short enough if you try to kite a whole spawn that should be too tough for you too kill they frenzy and eat your face off before you can.
Maybe you should just stop taking things so personal and get with the social contract that Ryan has extended and actually learn to use the correct terms. ;)
Maybe you should learn to read:
First off I've barely spoken on this whole leasing debate.
Then get off you high horse and realize it's in appropriate to dismiss people's feedback just because they haven't heard how the aggro-leash works and choose to describe it with an industry standard term.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And yet, the Hurler that I'm hitting will almost always turn around and run back to its spawn point before I can kill it.
Is the aggro decay so much that spamming Hellflume isn't enough to keep the Hurler's attention?
I think after doing the wildlife enough damage without it being able to do any in return, it does a sort of "Why am I standing around getting beat on by something I can't catch?". I think if it never manages to hit you, it's eventually going to drop far enough to give up. Once it zeros out at home base, you effectively become a new threat, so the process repeats. I'm not saying that's right, but I think it's what's happening.