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Polymorph Any Object can't do Outsiders-- it works like one of (baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud), of which only Polymorph is a self cast buff.
That is demonstrably untrue in 3.5.
Polymorph Any Object, as our reference.
The first half of the first line seems to indicate that you would be correct, but the second half quickly dispels that notion.
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.
Point in fact, the first example of what PaO can do - turn a "pebble into a human" - is entirely beyond the scome of any other spell in the list below... as is the second and third ("marionette to human" and "human to marionette").
Added to the a later paragraph, it becomes clear:
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.
I.e. polymorph is not the spell that determines your base of what this spell can do, but this spell can also (i.e. "in addition to the things above") imitate polymorph (and the other spells listed).
The only limits that are otherwise given to the spell, is the value and nature of what objects can be created:
A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.
Hence, while a GM might rule one way or the other, the only limitations indicated anywhere within the text is the non-living substance.
Lower level spells granting Wishes is an abuse or an exploit. You can play that way if you want, I do not and for the purposes of discussing balance you can't build the discussion based on assuming that those exploits are allowed. That's like me trying to argue balance against your house rules.
One of the really nice things about most all of the psionics rules as published to date, is that they tend to actively discourage this sort of table variance, allowing them to generally hold up more consistently across the board, when the rules are cleaved to as-written. There are certainly a few points of reference where table variance can and must be applied, but on the whole the number of such instances are substantially lower.
Partially, what we're coming across at this point is the unmitigated strength of the Conjuration and Transmutation schools themselves.
Nathananal you are skipping a lot of posts. Do you need someone to bring up the points made that you did not reply to, or do you not replying to them mean you are conceding those arguments/points?<--That is a serious question. I am not being snarky.
We already agree that it in core only a psion is a better blaster than a wizard, and probably the sorcerer to. But that does not make it broken since blasting is not exactly all that great.
Going back to the idea of using genies for wishes you can dominate them into casting a wish for you if they won't cooperate otherwise. Nothing says they have to willingly agree. There is actually an entire thread about this, and if the caster is sufficiently high enough level it is almost impossible for him to be located. Mindblank is a powerful thing.
There is a lot of focus on these specific set of spells. Is the current argument such that the primary reason psionics is more balanced (or less overpowered) than magic because of the spells on the list?
If simulacrum, gate, planar binding, magic jar, and so on were all available options to psionic characters would psionics be unbalanced then? Would it be worse than wizards or sorcerers because of the ability to allocate points to the highest level spells when appropriate? Is a wizard the Spell Point variant from Unearthed Arcana less balanced than a normal wizard?
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It's one of the reasons, for sure. Psionics doesn't tend to snap the game in half like magic can. One of the others is a necessity of spending more resources on each "shot" to get strong effects on powers. If psions had total access to all the options that magic does (especially not converted to the power point paradigm where you need to spend more to get more), I warrant they'd be as strong or stronger.
There is a lot of focus on these specific set of spells. Is the current argument such that the primary reason psionics is more balanced (or less overpowered) than magic because of the spells on the list?
If simulacrum, gate, planar binding, magic jar, and so on were all available options to psionic characters would psionics be unbalanced then? Would it be worse than wizards or sorcerers because of the ability to allocate points to the highest level spells when appropriate? Is a wizard the Spell Point variant from Unearthed Arcana less balanced than a normal wizard?
Are spells what makes the arcane and divine magic system so powerful? Of course. The effects that one can accomplish from magic are incredible, not just in spells that are explicit in their abilities (Teleport/Scry/Dominate), but spells that can be made incredibly potent by a creative player (prestidigitation, major image, summon monster as a way to gain spell access).
Separating the two is a bit difficult, but let's look at the drawbacks presented with both systems.
Arcane/Divine Magic system drawbacks:
- Without expending feats and spell levels the caster can not cast without moving his arms and making a significant amount of noise. It's hard to be stealthy. Harder than psionics is, anyway.
- Many arcane spells require material components, some of which can be costly.
- Arcane spells are made more difficult to cast while the user is in armor
- Divine spells often require the use of a holy symbol (though this can also be used to get around the cost of a material component)
- Casting is limited by a level-based power system. The caster can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.
Psionic system drawbacks
- Characters must enter psionic focus (a full round action without a feat), as a DC 20 concentration check in order to manifest their powers.
- Psionic powers have a specific type of display (the appearance of a power being manifested) as general rules, with some powers having more specific rules for displays.
- Certain psionic powers cause ability burn, which is ability damage that can not be healed magically or psionically
- Manifesting is limited by a points-based power system, the manifester can only use a certain number of points each day.
Shared Drawbacks
- Casting/Manifesting provokes attacks of opportunity from targets that threaten the caster
- Powerful spells/powers require the character to pay experience points to cast them
- Many situations (vigorous motion, entanglement, damage, being under the effect of a spell/power) require the character to make a concentration check or fail casting/manifesting
If I forgot something, someone let me know.
EDIT:
Looks like I was substantially ninja'd? Oops. Sorry - haven't read them.
Also, I added spoilers for easier reading, and a clarifying thesis at the end, that I forgot to note were edits last time.
There is a lot of focus on these specific set of spells. Is the current argument such that the primary reason psionics is more balanced (or less overpowered) than magic because of the spells on the list?
If simulacrum, gate, planar binding, magic jar, and so on were all available options to psionic characters would psionics be unbalanced then? Would it be worse than wizards or sorcerers because of the ability to allocate points to the highest level spells when appropriate? Is a wizard the Spell Point variant from Unearthed Arcana less balanced than a normal wizard?
It's a good set of questions, and the answer to a lot of these questions is, "partially, but not functionally in-game."
A very great deal has been made about a psion's ability to augment, as opposed to caster's ability to scale their spells for free.
The problem is that for many effects, there is no equivalent, and for those effects that do have an equivalent, the magical one is better.
The spell points system discussed in 3.0 is not actually the same thing as the power points system as ascribed by 3.5, though mostly this revolves around the idea of augmentation, and what that means.
Let's look at a few:
========================================================
If you just transplanted the literal spell simulacrum to psionics, it wouldn't really matter too - it's a "down time" spell, not an "in-combat" spell, hence it's power wouldn't significantly change based on the system. The time and cost-requirements are the "balancing" factor - two things which don't care whether you're getting the effect from power points, spells per level, or scrolls.
========================================================
---=> In the former, its limited nature and the requirement that it be augmented to acquire creatures of HD-value which are granted for free by automatic scaling indicate that the psionic equivalent would be weaker.
---=> In the latter, it's flatly weaker than gate in all instances, unless the 'filter' granted by the ability was ridiculous... in which case, they're basically even, as gate can do the most ridiculous things imaginable already.
If you dropped the actual gate spell, as printed, directly into psionics, without taking any considerations to design space and methodology to 3.5 psionics, than yes, it will be more powerful... but it doesn't really matter, because, when used in down-time, the gate spell can allow you to "win" most anything, if used in a manner to do so, no matter what number of ninth level spells (or powers) you possess in a day.
========================================================
However, I can see that being a "meh" example, so let's build our own, using the guidelines of how spells and powers function. Effectively, the spell notes that you can spend some time to conjure a creature over the course of ten minutes, with varying hit dice values. A fifth level spell starts at 6 HD, a 6th level spell increases to 12 HD, and an 8th level spell increases to 18 HD. That organization is a mess, thematically, however, as a 1 spell level increase nets you 6 HD in one case, and it requires a 2 spell level increase to net you 6 more HD. Frankly... I've no idea how that would suss out in psionics. There are too many variables.
---=> option one: start with a fifth level power and 6HD and increase by 6HD for every 2 power points expended beyond the base
---=> option two: start with a fourth level power, but otherwise function as the above
---=> option three: as option one or two, save you start with 6 HD and increase the HD by 3 for every power point spent above the base; this last is the most potent of the options and allows increased flexibility, but it still doesn't overtake the power of gate until after epic levels
Of course, the relative power kind of ignores the very real fact that psions don't have the option of actually binding and trapping the creatures - they have no magic circle effect that mages do (and if they did, considering the design style, it would be too weak to function against the higher level creatures... unless they augment it, which would put it as weaker than the base magic circle). But let's presume that, for some reason, they have magic circle and they have planar binding. In this case... it does not significantly increase the power of a psion compared to a mage, as, once again, this is an ability best used out of combat to prepare or do things in advance, at which point the exact uses per day of a given ability are irrelevant (and the psion will be forced to expend uses on lower level effects anyway).
========================================================
Looking at magic jar... once again, it doesn't significantly increase the power of the psion over the wizard. The duration is one hour per level - the psion is not going to be spamming this ability, unless something really weird is going on. When you first acquire it (at 11th level) one use will last for 11 hours; two will last for 22. No one is going to want to be terribly far away from their body for that long - too much of a risk of dying, horribly.
========================================================
So... no, none of those effects, with the exception of gate (which is notably the most potent effect in the game) is more broken with a psion and it's ability to augment than a wizard, as most of them are "downtime" effects.
EDIT: to clarify
Again, this is pointing to the actual pound-for-pound spells that were listed. Gaining more gate is, frankly, ludicrous, and, if you're going to follow the line expressed above - that of "free wishes" being unreasonable to allow - than gate will have the same problems, regardless of the system used to acquire it.
I will note, however, that direct access to polymorph any object - without any sort of the consideration of the design space or style of psionics (for instance, without comparing the differences between the metamorphosis line and the polymorph line - will be excessively potent with free access.
Much of the problem, however, with directly porting spells is that they presume a free scaling system, which psionics does not have, as a form of internal censorship. Lacking that balance point, than of course having access to more is going to be more powerful. Actually utilizing that balance point as part of the design, however, would substantially change the nature of the effects in question... too much to accurately judge without seeing them earnestly converted.
Ugh, tried to edit my above post to have the advantages of each system, and a few disadvantages that I missed and the time ran out while I was doing it.
(especially not converted to the power point paradigm where you need to spend more to get more)
I've seen this mentioned a lot, but I don't think that it is really true.
It is certainly correct for the blasting powers, but for most other powers the abilities scale just as much as their arcane and divine counterparts. There are cases where it does hold true, but those tend to be special cases more often than not.
I chose a mostly random letter (Not choosing 'E' since that would be easily see all the Energy powers) and looked at all the powers in the psionic spell list that started with that letter.
Under M there are twenty-nine powers. Some don't have augments and scale just as much as their spell counterparts (e.g. psionic major creation. Some do augment, but only in ways that spells would have have done (Mindwipe, my light). I pulled out all the powers here that feel like augments are being used to scale up the power (where the spellcaster would have gotten it for free).
Mental Barrier: Immediate action spells are weird so I can't guaranteed the spell version of this would have the deflection bonus scale up, but I could easily imagine it would. It probably wouldn't have an increased duration though.
Mental Disruption: While this could be a spell without scaling, it makes more sense that the area of the spell would grow with level.
Metaphysical Claw: The augment options are more than what magic fang gives, but really just turn this power into greater magic fang with a higher cost (but with a lower spell known). Compared to magic fang this scale better. Compared to greater magic fang this costs more to scale.
Metaphysical Weapon: Same as Metaphysical Claw.
Mind Thrust: As with most damaging powers this definitely costs more to get what a spell would have gotten for free.
Mind Trap: Immediate action spells are still weird. In this case it feels like the spell version of this would have no duration scaling. Among this set of powers, I'm pretty sure this one wouldn't autoscale if it were a spell.
Mind Link: I'm not certain on this one. It is telepathic bond, but as a 1st level power as opposed to a 5th level spell (limited to a specific type of psion). If telepathic bond was a 1st (or 2nd) level spell I don't think it would have scaling targets. Also compared to how telepathic bond scales mind link has a clear advantage (1 person per 3 caster levels vs. 1 additional person per power point augment). This wouldn't autoscale as a spell. Not at the level it is at.
Thieving Mindlink: I don't know. Does, "as mindlink" mean it has all the augment options mindlink has? This doesn't mention overwriting the need to target willing creature (without the 4 point augment). As for autoscaling, maybe? Despite it being based on mindlink I could see the number of targets scaling as a 4th level power if that augment was an option.
Among the twenty-nine powers, there are six that use augments to mimic spell autoscaling. From my memory of the powers as a whole this seems pretty standard. The E section would swing things the other way (with nearly every power with "energy" in the name), but even then I don't think the majority of psionic powers require more power points to match spells.
There is a lot of focus on these specific set of spells. Is the current argument such that the primary reason psionics is more balanced (or less overpowered) than magic because of the spells on the list?
If simulacrum, gate, planar binding, magic jar, and so on were all available options to psionic characters would psionics be unbalanced then? Would it be worse than wizards or sorcerers because of the ability to allocate points to the highest level spells when appropriate? Is a wizard the Spell Point variant from Unearthed Arcana less balanced than a normal wizard?
The polymorph spells from 3.5 are a big reason for the power of the druid and the wizard.
Those other spells are also powerful, and would have been a boost to psionics power if they have them. Simulacrum was badly written, but it is what it is, and gate allowing you to have that many HD to control was way to much. The list goes on. One thing that psionics also did was to limit the number or metamagic feats that could be applied to a power by tying it to pp spend, and forcing you to use your psionic focus. I know we are only discussing core here, but I have seen several arcance builds on the 3.5 boards that could do over 1000 points of damage. Now hopefully nobody would do that in a game.
I don't remember exactly how the spell point variant worked in 3.5 to be honest, but since a lot of the power is in the spells themselves which is proven by arcane magic being better than divine magic then I don't think the the spell point system changes a whole lot.
- Characters must enter psionic focus (a full round action without a feat), as a DC 20 concentration check in order to manifest their powers.
I was trying to look that up but I couldn't find that rule. I saw things that consumed psionic focus, but nothing on lack of psionic focus stopping you from manifesting powers.
- Certain psionic powers cause ability burn, which is ability damage that can not be healed magically or psionically
That is harder for me to search, but in XPH, I only saw one feat and a single power that made use of ability burn. It didn't seem like it was spread throughout the system enough to call it a drawback of the system.
.
.
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Telepathic Bond: you plus 1/3 lvl within 30 ft., no SR, able to be dispelled, you can exclude yourself
- cons: V/S/M, level 5
Mindlink: 1st level, you can include +1/lvl (but limited to within 15 ft.)
- cons: M, must be level 5 to apply to creatures
=============================================
Arg... being distracted. I'll look at them again, later, maybe.
Sorry.
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- Characters must enter psionic focus (a full round action without a feat), as a DC 20 concentration check in order to manifest their powers.I was trying to look that up but I couldn't find that rule. I saw things that consumed psionic focus, but nothing on lack of psionic focus stopping you from manifesting powers.
Fast answer that I know. You are correct, it is not - it is necessary to manifest them without their display.
Fast answer that I know. You are correct, it is not - it is necessary to manifest them without their display.- Characters must enter psionic focus (a full round action without a feat), as a DC 20 concentration check in order to manifest their powers.I was trying to look that up but I couldn't find that rule. I saw things that consumed psionic focus, but nothing on lack of psionic focus stopping you from manifesting powers.
Ah, my mistake.
It is often necessary to take use of psionic feats, but not to manifest powers.
Nathananal you are skipping a lot of posts. Do you need someone to bring up the points made that you did not reply to, or do you not replying to them mean you are conceding those arguments/points?<--That is a serious question. I am not being snarky.
Unfortunately Weraithstrike, I am still a single human being who requires time to sleep, work, eat, take my son to the festival to ride Apple Rides and eat funnel cake, ect.
When i am gone for 4 or 8 hours and there are tons of new posts I simply do not have the time to respond to everything.
The rules are to say that when you wish for the item it doesn't reduce your constitution by the same amount. It doesn't say it does that, so it doesn't do that.
It's not dependent on table play style. It's dependent on the use of house rules that negate it. We're not talking about a house ruled game, we're talking about the standard rules with no baggage attached. Regardless, it's not that relevant to the discussion- a wizard can acquire their Int bonus with or without the use of Efreet. Money is rarely a problem for them anyway, and with their demiplanes they've got plenty of time and isolation to build items and cast long casting time spells with.
Nowhere in the rules does it say when you ask an Efreet to cast a wish for you that it cannot twist your meanings. Its one of the very basic themes of the creature in mythology, its supported in the rules and flavor of the game.
When you Summon an Efreet and ask it to cast a Wish for you, it is still the one casting the Wish. It is table dependent as to whether a DM wants to enforce/use the wish twisting thing or not.
Fact is, unless you are 18th level or higher and paying the XP component for a Wish there is no rule anywhere that says it does exactly what you want it to do.
Er... there is.
Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Material Component
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
This is what wish does. It does exactly this. Even if your new Efreeti pal who has actually agreed to your binding contract wanted to twist your wish, they can't. You are specifically producing an effect that wish can produce, on a specific target, at a specific time, through a specific method. There is no perversion going on there, and claiming that there can be is effectively cheating (something a GM can be just as guilty of as a player), and not supported by the rules.
Edit: I feel it bears repeating; if they wanted to. The fact that you've compelled them to accept your contract-
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check...
means they want to. Or at least, they are forced to do what you've told them to exactly as you told them to whether they want to or not. And that's assuming you don't use further magic like suggestion or charm/dominate monster to encourage them.
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Shield of Faith begins at +2 and scales to +5 for free.
Barkskin begins at +2 and scales to +5 for free.
Divine favor begins at +1 and scales up to +3 for free.
Divine power begins at +1 and scales to +6 for free, unless we're talking 3.x where it kicks your BAB into the next tier, in which case it scales to between +5 and +10 for free, grants 1-2 additional attacks, a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, and +1 temporary HP / level.
Greater magic fang and greater magic weapon both scale to +5 for free while also enjoying a 1 hour / level duration.
Etc, etc, etc.
I'm Going to Rock the Boat: I'n my opinion, I feel that psionics is actually its strongest not when it is nova-ing (I feel it will never compete with a serious core caster nova), but when it's going in the opposite direction. This is actually where I feel psionics is the strongest.
IMHO, one of the strongest pluses in the psionic system is that you can adapt to your group's playstyle easily. If you like marathon dungeon crawls where you encounter like 30 encounters before resting (okay that number's goofy but it's just for illustration), or your GM likes to run a big giant slugfest once per session (with multiple waves of baddies, kind of like throwing all your encounters at you at once, which is pretty popular), you're going to fit right in.
The last psion I played tended to use a lot of non-scaling powers at their baselines repeatedly, because she could. During our Reign of Winter campaign when we were fighting giants, she spent most of a very large combat just casting ectoplasmic sheen (grease) until most of the frost giants were oiled up like someone dropped a vat of canola oil on 'em. It was quite effective at hampering their movement and/or making it difficult to fight our martials.
In another campaign, I played a character with empathic connection (charm), and very frequently made use of the baseline power for charming humanoids, and I did so for interrogations and such, or would toss out at least one attempt to charm each encounter if we were fighting people (the save DC didn't scale up, but it wasn't costing me a lot to try).
Back to the first psion, I also had the summoning power astral construct, and I would poop little 1 PP monsters to provide allies with flanking buddies if I didn't feel like there was anything that I could (or needed) to contribute to a given situation. The little guys weren't hitting anyone on their own, but it was pretty nice to be able to help our TWFer flank or provide some soft cover for an ally for a few rounds on the cheap.
I would often use entangling ectoplasm and toss it on enemies like tanglefoot bags. At 1 PP and a ranged touch attack, it made for 5 rounds of nice penalties on someone, which generally helped our martials do their duty that much better (entangling enemies made it harder for them to play keep-away).
In general, by mid levels, if I opted to be cheap, I could very easily toss a power every round without worrying about slowing the party down because I needed to stop and rest. They weren't awesome powers (they frequently had low save DCs or did relatively minor effects) but they helped contribute and kept me from twiddling my thumbs waiting for an encounter that I felt was worthy of actually casting something.
This, I feel is where psionics truly shines. If you want to be, you turn yourself into a warlock, just tossing minor almost-at-will powers all over the place. We could talk about how I could blast for 9d6+9 damage 10 times per day, but I'm more amused by 3d6+3 30 times per day.
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On the subject of the wish thing, there's a Paizo-published adventure module that has that exact thing. There's an NPC, her dragon buddy, and her bound efreeti. The NPC's ability scores are mysteriously 3 points higher in every score than a normal NPC of her level, and her genie is mildly irritated by having to grant wishes to appease her spoiled dragon-friend.
If you encounter an efreeti "in the wild" or something, sure, I'm all for the efreeti having his laughs. However, when you bind a creature it is compelled to obey your demands if you succeeded at your opposed Charisma check or it agreed willingly, which means that if one of your demands is "grant me wishes and don't **** 'em up," then you're going to get wishes that aren't ****ed up.
It's quite telling that during the Pathfinder alpha/beta playtest that efreeti binding for wishes actually came up, and the devs said that they would look into it and possibly change the HD of the efreeti or something to prevent it; but instead we have bind-able efreeti and a very nerfed wish spell.
The new wish is in fact so nerfed by comparison to the old one, that it's almost like they expected you to find ways to cast it without actually casting it.
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On the subject of the wish thing, there's a Paizo-published adventure module that has that exact thing. There's an NPC, her dragon buddy, and her bound efreeti. The NPC's ability scores are mysteriously 3 points higher in every score than a normal NPC of her level, and her genie is mildly irritated by having to grant wishes to appease her spoiled dragon-friend.
If you encounter an efreeti "in the wild" or something, sure, I'm all for the efreeti having his laughs. However, when you bind a creature it is compelled to obey your demands if you succeeded at your opposed Charisma check or it agreed willingly, which means that if one of your demands is "grant me wishes and don't **** 'em up," then you're going to get wishes that aren't ****ed up.
It's quite telling that during the Pathfinder alpha/beta playtest that efreeti binding for wishes actually came up, and the devs said that they would look into it and possibly change the HD of the efreeti or something to prevent it; but instead we have bind-able efreeti and a very nerfed wish spell.
The new wish is in fact so nerfed by comparison to the old one, that it's almost like they expected you to find ways to cast it without actually casting it.
That module being Seven Swords of Sin for those that are curious.
[Edit] Also, for those who care about the passage that refers to the genie granting wishes.
Random note: I feel that it is important to note here that Efreeti are Lawful Evil (always), so the player will need to be very careful about how they word their contracts and their, but the Efreet isn't going to break their promise. It'd be reasonable to expect them to dick you around later, but they'll follow through with the contract while they're under it.
Er... there is.
...Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Except you aren't casting the wish the efreet is. The wording of what the wish is doing is determined by the efreet (essentially the DM).
I draw your attention to the section that reads "You may try. . ." which you intentionally left out. . .
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.
You order the efreet to cast a wish to grant you a +1 bonus to intelligence; efreet chooses to cast that wish to siphon a point of constitution to a point of intelligence.
You are depending on the table style where the player gets to decide the exact wording and effect of the wish in a very meta-game style. The rules support Efreet (malevolent evil creatures who delight in twisting others wishes) wanting to do so. The rules support attempting to do things outside the specific list of wish abilities.
No where in the rules does it state that when an Efreet is granting a wish you the player get to determine the exact meta-game effect.
The same logic that was applied above to Polymorph any object allows this-- PAO never states specifically that you can take the form of an outsider or which abilities of said outsider you would gain, merely that you can polymorph "one object or creature into another". . . I do not say the spell specifically stating "any creature or object into any other creature or object", so by the rules as written I see that Outsiders cannot be done-- the spell refers me to polymorph for what effects you gain from the form if you choose to polymorph yourself and Spell Like and Supernatural abilities aren't listed there.
The wording of shapechange, however, does specifically state "any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size." and DOES grant supernatural abilities.
This suggests to me that PoA, again, not specifying supernatural abilities and not specifying types not covered by polymorph cannot-- it is after all a lower level effect and therefore likely to have more limits than the 9th level variation.
Also of note is that even Shapechange does not grant Spell-like abilities-- so even if you can assume the form of an angel with a Wish SLA, there is no spell in the core rules which supports being able to use that ability.
All of these require rulings by DMs. They aren't hard and fast, and you are arguing from a place of always choosing the most favorable and powerful possible interpretation in favor of the player.
That set of rulings very well might be how you and other run their games, but none of these rulings are official-- they all depend on table style/group playstyle and the whims of each individual DM.
Outsiders are creatures. It uses the rules of the transmutation school, which I recommend you read up on if you're going to try and have this discussion.
Fine. You're going to take a very bizarre, very hard line stance on the wish subject, and refuse to listen to what other people have to say. I'm annoyed by that, since it seems like you're actively seeking to squelch a search for truth and reinforce your own view, but fine. How do you address the case of the dominated or otherwise commanded Efreeti (bearing in mind that planar binding is just that- it compels your target)?
Random note: I feel that it is important to note here that Efreeti are Lawful Evil (always), so the player will need to be very careful about how they word their contracts and their, but the Efreet isn't going to break their promise. It'd be reasonable to expect them to dick you around later, but they'll follow through with the contract while they're under it.
To the exact and very specific wording of the actual contractual obligation. . . yes, they will follow the letter of the contract--
But unless you have specified every single possible harmful effect that the efreeti could include in the wording of the Wish it is casting then I would never feel safe in doing so. . . it falls under the same purview as deals with devils and what not.
"No where in this contract I am holding did I state that I would not. . ."
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Another thing a friend of mine just pointed out to me, is the humorous way that efreeti are designed in Pathfinder. They are CR 8 outsiders with no SR and a really bad Charisma by comparison to most outsiders (a mere +2, while most other outsiders of their CR are baselining at +4 or better), and their caster level is only 11th.
This means a few things.
1. Efreeti are easy to bind.
2. Efreeti are easy to compel.
3. Efreeti suck at casting spells offensively.
The DC and caster level of an efreeti's wish is DC 21 and 11th respectively. This means that even if you have the efreeti mimic spells for you, they are going to be at a relatively low caster level (meaning they're easily dispellable, don't do a lot of damage, don't pierce SR very well, etc) and have a low-ish save DC. At CL 11th, the minimum level that you can bind one (without resorting to scrolls or spellcasting services) is when your own caster level is at least 11th; so you're not binding one for combat purposes in general.
If you are binding one, it's probably for one of the following reasons.
1. Your party has hit the 2nd tier of the 20 levels of play and it's time to get your inherent modifiers.
2. You want to cast some exotic downtime spells and this beats spellcasting services (such as permanency, plane shift, regeneration, secure shelter, etc.
3. You need to resurrect one of your party members. It'll cost all 3 wishes (1 to restore the body, 1 to raise them, and 1 to mimic the effects of a restoration spell).
4. To play high stakes poker.
You're probably not binding the efreeti to use as a minion, and if you do, the efreeti's going to be of iffy assistance in combat, acting more as a supporter, since again his most powerful save DC is 21 (wish) and mimics spells at a CL of 11th.
It's almost like having a genie in a bottle was expected...
Outsiders are creatures. It uses the rules of the transmutation school, which I recommend you read up on if you're going to try and have this discussion.
Fine. You're going to take a very bizarre, very hard line stance on the wish subject, and refuse to listen to what other people have to say. I'm annoyed by that, since it seems like you're actively seeking to squelch a search for truth and reinforce your own view, but fine. How do you address the case of the dominated or otherwise commanded Efreeti (bearing in mind that planar binding is just that- it compels your target)?
Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus.
Benevolent actions certainly count against the nature of an Efreet at a minimum.
I resent the implication that the way me, the gaming group I play in now, the two other gaming groups I played with in college, two different sets of tables I played with in high school, and a fifth completely separate gaming group I played with at other times in the last five years is some how "bizarre" or "wrong".
In those 5 gaming groups, with close to 20 different DMs, not once has a 6th level spell summoning an Efreet been allowed to equal no drawback free wishes.
Not one of those 20 different DMs would have ruled on the side of 8th level Polymorph Any Object being able to duplicate the effect of 9th level Shapechange.
I've tried to point out several times now that we are arguing about rulings that are not set in stone. There isn't this kind of table variance in a lot of effects in the game (Fly or Flame Strike or Slay living for instance) but all of the scenarios you are building rely on this kind of generous interpretation in favor of the players.
Why is your experience for however many years in however many groups with however many DMs somehow more "right" than my "bizarre" which I clearly understand you mean "inferior" playstyle over the last 20 years in my 5 different groups and 20 different DMs?
There is no "table variation neutral" way to agree that these effects are adjudicated outside a shared setting like PFS (care to explain which of the above things you mentioned are PFS legal?)
Or were specifically ruled upon in the RPGA Living Greyhawk setting?
Care to link to the official rulings?
the scenarios you are building rely on this kind of generous interpretation in favor of the players
I humbly disagree. It's definitely not in the favor of my players.
Muahahahahah...
If you dropped the actual gate spell, as printed, directly into psionics, without taking any considerations to design space and methodology to 3.5 psionics, than yes, it will be more powerful...
Not ignoring the rest of that section which is pretty solid, but I don't think this is necessarily true for a few reasons.
As a 9th level spell/power, even if it has augment options it would read like: "You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed 17. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed 34.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power can call and control one additional HD (for multiple creatures) and control a single creature with two additional HD."
There isn't a lot of room to augment that higher, but it is a matter of a few power points rather that may or may not be necessarily based on what you are calling. It would change the power difference a little, but not by much. Besides, as I mentioned before, it isn't the case that psionic methodologies would demand this require an augment for higher HD.
...they have no magic circle effect that mages do (and if they did, considering the design style, it would be too weak to function against the higher level creatures... unless they augment it, which would put it as weaker than the base magic circle)
While that is reasonable to suggest for the HD limit for gate, there is nothing within protection from evil or magic circle against evil that scales beyond the duration and spell resistance, both traits are things that automatically scale in practically every psionic power already (with the few that don't scale tending to be very special circumstances).
Even accounting for the design process for including augmenting when necessary, there is nothing in magic circle against evil that would negatively change in becoming psionic circle against evil. If an augmentation option was added, it would be one to increase the bonuses to AC and saving throws, an option that magic circle against evil does not get.
Much of the problem, however, with directly porting spells is that they presume a free scaling system, which psionics does not have, as a form of internal censorship.
I've mentioned it a few times hear, but this is still not true. It is true for many powers that points are necessary to match magic scaling, but for even more powers it is the case that they see a lot of free scaling.
You focused on those few powers, but I would focus on something a bit more basic and more spam-able that you or someone else had mentioned before, summon monster. I know that you mentioned astral construct, but that is its own thing with its own strengths and weaknesses. There is no reason mechanically why you can't summon celestial dogs with psionics. Although there may be reasons why they would get it to give different casters different advantages (for same reason you wouldn't give mind link to a wizard as a 1st level spell even without augments as an option). If there was a psionic summon monster would imagine it would look like this.
Psychoporation (Teleportation)
Level: Psion 1
Dsiplay: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Power Points: 1
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The power conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.
When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.
Augment
If you spend 4 additional power points, you summon 1d4 additional creatures of the same kind.
In my opinion this fits well within the design constraints of psionic powers and it can be applied to most spells. Not all spells diminish when given augments, many are better.
The problem is that for many effects, there is no equivalent, and for those effects that do have an equivalent, the magical one is better.
Except powers like:
Microcosm vs. Power Word Kill It is just a better version with the augment option.
Mind Link vs. Telepathic Bond. Telepathic bond has the advantage of not including yourself as well as permanency. I don't think that is worth being four levels higher.
Expansion vs. Enlarge Person: This isn't completely in the favor of expansion because this is personal and it only lasts a round per level. However it can be manifested as a standard action and there are augmentations that vastly increase the duration, increase your size even more, or manifest this as a swift action. Presuming you want to enlarge yourself, expansion is the better power/spell.
Psionic Charm vs. Charm Person Another case where augments just make it better than the magical version.
I haven't gone through all the powers, but I'm relatively certain there are other examples out there. It is also reasonable to note that many of these are restricted to specific specialists. While there are cases of the magical variation being better, there are many examples of the magical version being equal or worse.
the scenarios you are building rely on this kind of generous interpretation in favor of the playersI humbly disagree. It's definitely not in the favor of my players.
Muahahahahah...
The Master is a most despicable and cruel Master, but also benevolent and kind. Truly, he is the greatest of Masters, full of mystery, wonder and power!
Telepathic Bond: you plus 1/3 lvl within 30 ft., no SR, able to be dispelled, you can exclude yourself
- cons: V/S/M, level 5
Mindlink: 1st level, you can include +1/lvl (but limited to within 15 ft.)
- cons: M, must be level 5 to apply to creatures=============================================
Arg... being distracted. I'll look at them again, later, maybe.
Sorry.
I wouldn't ever call the display of a power like this ever a con. It would be like says a con for fireball is that creates a big obvious ball of flame.
Both variations is a 10 minute/level spells making it more likely that you will see them cast outside of combat (or any event) rather than during it. Because of that the range and spell resistance (for the purpose of comparing these two, is somewhat irrelevant.
They ability to dismiss it is nice along with ability to exclude yourself, but I wouldn't even say that is worth +1 spell level.
Shield of Faith begins at +2 and scales to +5 for free.
Barkskin begins at +2 and scales to +5 for free.
Divine favor begins at +1 and scales up to +3 for free.
Divine power begins at +1 and scales to +6 for free, unless we're talking 3.x where it kicks your BAB into the next tier, in which case it scales to between +5 and +10 for free, grants 1-2 additional attacks, a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, and +1 temporary HP / level.
Greater magic fang and greater magic weapon both scale to +5 for free while also enjoying a 1 hour / level duration.
Etc, etc, etc.
Who are you talking to and what are you trying to say?
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Genies, like a lot of monsters that people deride as being far less of a threat than expected (aboleth), are actually prime candidates for having class levels. That CR 8 efreet is the efreeti equivalent of a 1st level commoner. He's the dirt farmer that you ignore in every town you ride through. But if you treat him too badly, you might find out his uncle is a CR 21, 12th level spellcaster noble efreet.
Who are you talking to and what are you trying to say?Shield of Faith begins at +2 and scales to +5 for free.
Barkskin begins at +2 and scales to +5 for free.
Divine favor begins at +1 and scales up to +3 for free.
Divine power begins at +1 and scales to +6 for free, unless we're talking 3.x where it kicks your BAB into the next tier, in which case it scales to between +5 and +10 for free, grants 1-2 additional attacks, a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, and +1 temporary HP / level.
Greater magic fang and greater magic weapon both scale to +5 for free while also enjoying a 1 hour / level duration.
Etc, etc, etc.
I should have been more clear. Free-scaling is pretty prevalent throughout the magic system. We often get drawn into arcane vs psionics, but since psionics is often about buffing and buffing and buffing, it's very worthwhile to notice the free scaling of spells that are generally associated with killing your enemies (at least directly).
For example, thicken skin is a power that closely mimics barkskin, but requires you to keep pumping more and more and more into it to get it to scale, whereas barkskin just reaches +5 from the same 2nd level slot (thicken skin can be used at 1st level, but at +1 natural armor, it's not winning any awards for best use of resources in most cases).
Also, while many psionic powers do have options of spending more juice to cast them faster (such as with expansion), doing so also means you are going to get a weaker buff overall, because the extra points spent to cast it faster also count against the limit on how many you can spend, so dropping the equivalent of a 4th level power to get enlarge person as a swift-action is a nice option, but I wonder how many people would bother taking a spell that cost a 4th level slot that was a personal-range enlarge person with the only difference being it was a swift-action cast. >_>
This is especially noticeable when you consider the fact that clerics, druids, and wizards all benefit greatly from pearls of power, which they can craft themselves. Free scaling is huge in this case, especially considering the closest alternative for psionics is cognizance crystals which suck.
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Genies, like a lot of monsters that people deride as being far less of a threat than expected (aboleth), are actually prime candidates for having class levels. That CR 8 efreet is the efreeti equivalent of a 1st level commoner. He's the dirt farmer that you ignore in every town you ride through. But if you treat him too badly, you might find out his uncle is a CR 21, 12th level spellcaster noble efreet.
Yes, but really that argument is plausible to pretty much everything. Kill this orc, and anger his mother, the 20th level cleric of Gruumsh. Blah blah.
EDIT: And really, this isn't an argument against binding, genies, or anything. It's an argument that your GM is looking for an excuse to dick around with a super-high CR enemy and decided that he doesn't like you using your class features, so this is an excuse.
Even then, it's kind of dumb. Clearly this CR 21 efreeti has nothing better to do than to go rough up the bullies who took his nephew's daily pocket lint from him.
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Genies, like a lot of monsters that people deride as being far less of a threat than expected (aboleth), are actually prime candidates for having class levels. That CR 8 efreet is the efreeti equivalent of a 1st level commoner. He's the dirt farmer that you ignore in every town you ride through. But if you treat him too badly, you might find out his uncle is a CR 21, 12th level spellcaster noble efreet.Yes, but really that argument is plausible to pretty much everything. Kill this orc, and anger his mother, the 20th level cleric of Gruumsh. Blah blah.
Of course, you can also skip a step and actually have the efreeti that PCs meet be leveled efreets. Would make more sense, anyhow. Why is the efreeti equivalent of a dirt farmer guarding the McGuffin?
Random note: I feel that it is important to note here that Efreeti are Lawful Evil (always), so the player will need to be very careful about how they word their contracts and their, but the Efreet isn't going to break their promise. It'd be reasonable to expect them to dick you around later, but they'll follow through with the contract while they're under it.To the exact and very specific wording of the actual contractual obligation. . . yes, they will follow the letter of the contract--
But unless you have specified every single possible harmful effect that the efreeti could include in the wording of the Wish it is casting then I would never feel safe in doing so. . . it falls under the same purview as deals with devils and what not.
"No where in this contract I am holding did I state that I would not. . ."
You don't have to tell them everything they won't do.
You simply tell them what they will do followed by "and nothing else."
Of course, you can also skip a step and actually have the efreeti that PCs meet be leveled efreets. Would make more sense, anyhow. Why is the efreeti equivalent of a dirt farmer guarding the McGuffin?Genies, like a lot of monsters that people deride as being far less of a threat than expected (aboleth), are actually prime candidates for having class levels. That CR 8 efreet is the efreeti equivalent of a 1st level commoner. He's the dirt farmer that you ignore in every town you ride through. But if you treat him too badly, you might find out his uncle is a CR 21, 12th level spellcaster noble efreet.Yes, but really that argument is plausible to pretty much everything. Kill this orc, and anger his mother, the 20th level cleric of Gruumsh. Blah blah.
I wholly agree with encountering leveled efreeti. Binding them on the other hand is pretty much impossible, since there's a HD limit. I thought we were talking about binding efreeti for wishes, not encountering them "in the wild" so to speak.
I personally enjoy dropping plot hooks when players use planar binding spells. I once had a group that called some efreeti and worked out an Aladdin's Deal with them (IE - 2 for 1 wishes) and the efreeti were pretty keen on that deal. One day when they called up the efreeti, the efreeti (who had become quite used to this arrangement) explained that their community was getting shat on by a big bad on the plane of fire and asked the PCs for help, since they were obviously badass superheroes. It led to a fun side-adventure.
For example, thicken skin is a power that closely mimics barkskin, but requires you to keep pumping more and more and more into it to get it to scale, whereas barkskin just reaches +5 from the same 2nd level slot (thicken skin can be used at 1st level, but at +1 natural armor, it's not winning any awards for best use of resources in most cases).
But thicken skin can also grant you a +6 enhancement bonus to Natural Armor at 15th level, and a +7 enhancement bonus at 18th level. With overchannel if you wanted to it could grant you a +8 bonus at 20th level-- those are options that Barkskin can never do.
Also, while many psionic powers do have options of spending more juice to cast them faster (such as with expansion), doing so also means you are going to get a weaker buff overall, because the extra points spent to cast it faster also count against the limit on how many you can spend, so dropping the equivalent of a 4th level power to get enlarge person as a swift-action is a nice option, but I wonder how many people would bother taking a spell that cost a 4th level slot that was a personal-range enlarge person with the only difference being it was a swift-action cast. >_>
Wizards can and occasionally do do this-- except the increase is +4 spell levels and the cost of a Feat. To quicken enlarge person the Wizard has to have memorized it into a 5th level slot.
This free, built in quicken is a powerful option that allows Psions to spontaneously cast two powers in a round-- I'd label this as a fairly powerful effect on some of the abilities that can be quickened since no other class can spontaneously quicken effects (without a magic item or going into the splat books and spending multiple feats.)
For a sorcerer to quicken a spell at all he has to have the feat, have the Arcane Preparation feat, and then memorize the spell ahead of time into a slot with those two feats. . . that's a pretty big advantage in flexibility over the Sorcerer.
This is especially noticeable when you consider the fact that clerics, druids, and wizards all benefit greatly from pearls of power, which they can craft themselves. Free scaling is huge in this case, especially considering the closest alternative for psionics is cognizance crystals which suck.
yes, the lower level Pearls of Power are slightly more powerful than lower level crystals, but the higher level crystals allow a powerful effect or splitting the power points for several lesser effect which the higher level pearls of power can't do.
Only the recharging requirement really makes them less good, but after charged while being used I don't see them as being that much worse.
Keep in mind, however, that Wands cap out at 4th level spells whereas there are Dorjes for Powers all the way up to 9th level-- I'd say that benefit for that class of items is at least as significant as the reverse disparity for Crystals/Pearls.
But thicken skin can also grant you a +6 enhancement bonus to Natural Armor at 15th level, and a +7 enhancement bonus at 18th level. With overchannel if you wanted to it could grant you a +8 bonus at 20th level-- those are options that Barkskin can never do.
Ashiel wrote:
Which is why it costs so much more to do so than barkskin ever will. Would you spend a 9th level spell, a feat, and 5d8 damage for a net +3 enhancement bonus gain over a 2nd level spell?
Wizards can and occasionally do do this-- except the increase is +4 spell levels and the cost of a Feat. To quicken enlarge person the Wizard has to have memorized it into a 5th level slot.
This free, built in quicken is a powerful option that allows Psions to spontaneously cast two powers in a round-- I'd label this as a fairly powerful effect on some of the abilities that can be quickened since no other class can spontaneously quicken effects (without a magic item or going into the splat books and spending multiple feats.)
No no, wizards can always do this, for +4 and a feat. See, you can't quicken all powers "in-house". Only a few. A few that are very specific in their purposes and intent, and it counts against your usual actions so that means if you do, you don't quicken in the same round to increase your output.
Also, sorcerers in core 3.x sucked ass compared to wizards, clerics, and druids. Psions are like sorcerers done right. There was no incentive at all to being a sorcerer in core 3.x, because you had no class features, just a pitifully small list of spells known, and you had to eat full-round cast times for using metamagic feats.
Meanwhile wizards got a host of bonus feats, at least 1 wizard only spell, access to pearls of power, innate scribe scroll, access to any spell they wanted, better skills due to Int synergy, and the ability to take all the split-spells (lesser and greaters). Perhaps ironically, the only bone sorcerers got in 3.x was that they got more benefit out of a ring of wizardry than wizards...isn't that funny?
It wasn't until late 3.5 that sorcerers started getting love, and that was usually in the form of sorcerer-only spells that were just godlike.
Though both classes could use metamagic rods (wizards were better though since they got the feats to make them themselves).
Psions are like sorcerers done right. You don't get everything you want but you can pick some stuff and always be pretty good at those things. Sorcerers in Pathfinder are more competitive all the way around though.
yes, the lower level Pearls of Power are slightly more powerful than lower level crystals, but the higher level crystals allow a powerful effect or splitting the power points for several lesser effect which the higher level pearls of power can't do.
Only the recharging requirement really makes them less good, but after charged while being used I don't see them as being that much worse.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, back up. That's just wrong. There is 0% benefit to having bigger cognizance crystals to manifest multiple lower level powers. That's just plain to see. It costs 9,000 gp to get a crystal with 5 PP, versus the 5000 gp it would cost to get 5 crystals with 1 PP. If you want a crystal with 17 PP (a 9th level power) it'll cost you 81,000 gp. If you want to cast lower level powers you buy or create lower level crystals, because anything else is just plain stupid. Anyone who can count can see how stupid it is.
I didn't even mention the fact that the crystals have to be RECHARGED, which means that you have to spend some downtime to get any benefit out of them at all, unlike pearls which just come back online naturally each day.
Keep in mind, however, that Wands cap out at 4th level spells whereas there are Dorjes for Powers all the way up to 9th level-- I'd say that benefit for that class of items is at least as significant as the reverse disparity for Crystals/Pearls.
Nope. Still not, because mages have staffs, which are basically big boy wands, and those staffs didn't suck in 3.x. The only benefit dorjes had over wands/staves is that you only needed 1 feat to craft them, except that STAFFs use the saving throw DCs and caster level of their caster if it was better than the real thing. Which means that a dorje with a 9th level power is DC 23. Better write home to mamma about how awesome it is!
What does that mean, exactly? Well it means that if I crafted a staff at the minimum caster level for the spell, say 11th, but I was 15th level, then when I cast the spell it's as a 15th level caster and I get to use my saving throw DC (which is assuredly higher) to boot, and I didn't have to pay for the extra oomph, it just happens naturally. So my DCs are going to be relevant forever!
Edited for niceness.
Right. . . Wizards have Staffs and Psions have Psicrowns.
Psicrowns are like staffs on crack.
- Characters must enter psionic focus (a full round action without a feat), as a DC 20 concentration check in order to manifest their powers.I was trying to look that up but I couldn't find that rule. I saw things that consumed psionic focus, but nothing on lack of psionic focus stopping you from manifesting powers.
- Certain psionic powers cause ability burn, which is ability damage that can not be healed magically or psionicallyThat is harder for me to search, but in XPH, I only saw one feat and a single power that made use of ability burn. It didn't seem like it was spread throughout the system enough to call it a drawback of the system.
You do not need psionic focus to use powers. You only need it for certain feats and other abilities. There is a feat(part of a two feat system) which harms you, but the damage hit point based not ability damage.
Nathananal you are skipping a lot of posts. Do you need someone to bring up the points made that you did not reply to, or do you not replying to them mean you are conceding those arguments/points?<--That is a serious question. I am not being snarky.
Unfortunately Weraithstrike, I am still a single human being who requires time to sleep, work, eat, take my son to the festival to ride Apple Rides and eat funnel cake, ect.
When i am gone for 4 or 8 hours and there are tons of new posts I simply do not have the time to respond to everything.
Sleep? I have not slept in 10 days. Ok, that may not be true. :)
On a more serious note I guess we can handle this one topic/post at a time. I think that is better than moving on to new topics so you are not addressing 3 or 4 points at once.
The rules are to say that when you wish for the item it doesn't reduce your constitution by the same amount. It doesn't say it does that, so it doesn't do that.
It's not dependent on table play style. It's dependent on the use of house rules that negate it. We're not talking about a house ruled game, we're talking about the standard rules with no baggage attached. Regardless, it's not that relevant to the discussion- a wizard can acquire their Int bonus with or without the use of Efreet. Money is rarely a problem for them anyway, and with their demiplanes they've got plenty of time and isolation to build items and cast long casting time spells with.
Nowhere in the rules does it say when you ask an Efreet to cast a wish for you that it cannot twist your meanings. Its one of the very basic themes of the creature in mythology, its supported in the rules and flavor of the game.
When you Summon an Efreet and ask it to cast a Wish for you, it is still the one casting the Wish. It is table dependent as to whether a DM wants to enforce/use the wish twisting thing or not.
Fact is, unless you are 18th level or higher and paying the XP component for a Wish there is no rule anywhere that says it does exactly what you want it to do.
The spell does say
"Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions."
However if you make your demand of the wish in such a way as for the Genie to use it in the way you intend then it has to make a bluff check vs your sense motive if it agrees. I am sure that a high level caster can have a high enough sense motive to not fail. Their bluff is only a "Bluff +15".
That is why I said before that dominating the creature works. It might get another +2 with an additional save, but at least you know it won't be using your wishes against you.
edit: only a +2 save bonus. :)
Right. . . Wizards have Staffs and Psions have Psicrowns.
Psicrowns are like staffs on crack.
If by "on crack" you mean "comparable to staffs, except take up your head slot", then I concur.
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Cognizance crystals are a Terrible(yes that "T" is not a typo) investment. No player with system mastery and a decent knowledge of psionics put much if any money into those things. Even at low levels it is normally just better to suck it up until you get more power points. If your players are wasting money on those things be happy until they find decide to correct their mistake.
PS: The above post assumes "flavor is not the reason for buying the crystals".
If by "on crack" you mean "comparable to staffs, except take up your head slot", then I concur.Right. . . Wizards have Staffs and Psions have Psicrowns.
Psicrowns are like staffs on crack.
Nathan many of the psionic versions of magic items were not good. Staffs were overpriced, and that alone means nobody I GM'd for ever purchased one. If they also took up a head slot they would never get used. They(the players) would teleport to the nearest Metropolis and sell them, but I never put psicrowns in a game so I never had to worry about that.