I'm having a hard time dealing with the card feat rewards of high deck number adventures. Let's take deck 5 adventure Sins of the Saviors as an example. The reward for this adventure is "Each character gains a card feat."
Now,
Once you’ve played a scenario, whether you won or lost, rebuild your character deck (see Between Games, below). Put all other cards back into the box.
If you’re playing an adventure and you successfully complete a scenario, you may proceed to the next scenario on the adventure card. If you’ve successfully completed all of the scenarios on the adventure card, you earn the reward on the adventure card.
So at the point when you earn the adventure card feat reward, there are no more cards on the table. The only solution if you want a valid character deck appears to be taking cards from the box.
If you can’t construct a valid deck from the cards your group has available because you don’t have enough of certain card types, choose the extra cards you need from the box, choosing only cards with the Basic trait. After you begin the adventure The Hook Mountain Massacre, you may ignore the Basic trait restriction; instead, you may use any cards in the box from the base set and the Character Add-On Deck, as well as any cards from an adventure whose adventure deck number is at least 2 lower than the adventure you’re currently playing.
The card feat is for finishing the deck 5 adventure. So I'm not playing deck 5 anymore. At the same time, "Setting Up" (p.4) lists "Build Your Character" before "Decide Whether You’re Playing a Standalone Scenario, an Adventure, or the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path." So I'm thinking I need a valid deck before I even start playing deck 6.
What I do in the end is that I choose a new card from the box, and I consider deck 4 or lower cards as valid choices (deck 6 which I am going to play in a second, minus 2). But I'm not feeling that good about this.
How do you people play this? Is it even possible that I should just check the card feat on the character card, but wait for the end of the first scenario of the next adventure to match the character deck with the character card list, when rebuilding it?
you're not 'playing' an adventure till you've started it - you yourself even say you're "going to play" adventure 6 - so the limit for cards is still 3 I'm afraid, not 4
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Might I suggest reading the entire section instead of just the last part of it that you quoted?
Now the time of adventure has passed. Return to the inn, heal your
wounds, and divide the treasures you’ve unearthed. Rest while you
can, for the runelords’ plans will not be halted for long.Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path
If, at any point, you need to advance the blessings deck but there
are no cards remaining in it, the scenario ends immediately and your
party of adventurers loses. You also lose if all of the characters are
dead at the same time (see Dying on page 14). You do not earn the
reward on the scenario card, and if you’re playing an adventure, you
didn’t complete that scenario; you will need to replay it successfully
before you can attempt the next scenario in the adventure.If the players defeat the villain and prevent him from escaping, or
they achieve a different condition for winning listed on the scenario
card, your group defeats the scenario and earns the reward listed
on the scenario card. You may be rewarded with loot cards, which
each can be given to any player in the group. If you’re rewarded with
a feat, choose an appropriate checkbox on your character card (or
your role card, if you have one) and check it. That feat now applies
to your character until she dies. If you’re rewarded with a feat of a
specific type and your character has no unchecked feats of that type,
you do not gain a feat. No character may gain a reward from a given
scenario, adventure, or Adventure Path more than once.
Once you’ve played a scenario, whether you won or lost, rebuild
your character deck (see Between Games, below). Put all other cards
back into the box.
If you’re playing an adventure and you successfully complete a
scenario, you may proceed to the next scenario on the adventure
card. If you’ve successfully completed all of the scenarios on the
adventure card, you earn the reward on the adventure card.
If you’re playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete
an adventure, you’re ready to move on to the next one. Add all of
the cards from the next adventure deck to the box and begin with
the first scenario of the new adventure.
If you’re playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete
all of the adventures, you earn the reward on the Adventure Path card.
At this point, you can build your own adventures using the cards you
have, or you can create new characters and start over.
...
You immediately gain the reward upon completing the scenario, this happens BEFORE the Between Games's section in which you rebuild your deck "After each scenario".
All cards from the next adventure are also added at this time (right after you finish an adventure and are ready to move on to the next) so the cards should be available for selection in the case that one of your party members ends up not able to fill a card slot. The new adventure number is now your current adventure number, so I believe the Number - 2 applies from your now-current adventure.
None of your party's unchosen cards go back to the box after the scenario until the party has completed rebuilding their decks.
I have no problem with the scenario reward, it's the adventure reward sequence I have trouble with.
As you quoted yourself, 1) you defeat the scenario and earn its reward, 2) you rebuild the decks and put back all remaining cards in the box, 3) you earn the reward for the adventure.
Or do you think these blocks you put in bold face do not apply sequentially?
Here is how I see it. First, let me repost that section with some numbering for easier explanation.
Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path
[1]If the players defeat the villain and prevent him from escaping, or they achieve a different condition for winning listed on the scenario card, your group defeats the scenario and earns the reward listed on the scenario card. You may be rewarded with loot cards, which each can be given to any player in the group. If you’re rewarded with a feat, choose an appropriate checkbox on your character card (or your role card, if you have one) and check it. That feat now applies to your character until she dies. If you’re rewarded with a feat of a specific type and your character has no unchecked feats of that type, you do not gain a feat. No character may gain a reward from a given scenario, adventure, or Adventure Path more than once.
[2]Once you’ve played a scenario, whether you won or lost, rebuild your character deck (see Between Games, below). Put all other cards back into the box.
[3]If you’re playing an adventure and you successfully complete a scenario, you may proceed to the next scenario on the adventure card. If you’ve successfully completed all of the scenarios on the adventure card, you earn the reward on the adventure card.
[4]If you’re playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete an adventure, you’re ready to move on to the next one. Add all of the cards from the next adventure deck to the box and begin with the first scenario of the new adventure.
[5]If you’re playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete all of the adventures, you earn the reward on the Adventure Path card. At this point, you can build your own adventures using the cards you have, or you can create new characters and start over.
Ok. So I don't think paragraph 3, 4, and 5 are simply sequential parts of the process. 1 and 2 describe the basic, typical process. 3-5 explain additional factors. So you earn adventure and adventure path rewards before you have to rebuild your deck.
Now, you might ask me, how can I argue that? Well, lets pretend for a second we go with a literal, sequential reading here. We also have to take this into account.
Card Feats: When you gain a card feat, check one new box on the Cards List on your character card. Each card feat allows you to put one more card of the type you choose into your character deck. After you choose a card feat, use the new number on your Cards List whenever you rebuild your deck.
That means the idea of rebuilding, putting away the cards, taking the adventure feat, and going to the box is off the table. You can't use the card feat until you rebuild, and you definitely don't rebuild after you take the adventure feat in that proposed sequence. Imagine if an adventure ever gave a loot card? You wouldn't be able to keep it, since you aren't given the opportunity to rebuild your deck in this sequence.
Let us pretend for a moment that we've completed Angel in the Tower, and have now also successfully completed the Skinsaw Murders. Which of these makes more sense?
Option A
I earn the Impaler of Thorns, Medusa Mask, Sihedron Medallion, and Snakeskin Tunic immediately. We rebuild our decks. Then we each check off a card feat. But we have to save it for the next time we rebuild our decks. This means that if I chose one of the loot cards, but already had the maximum number of cards of that type that I could keep, I'd have to give one up, even though mere seconds later I would be earning a card feat that would have allowed me to keep it.
Option B
I earn the Impaler of Thorns, Medusa Mask, Sihedron Medallion, and Snakeskin Tunic as well as the card feat at the same time. I'm potentially able to keep one of those loot cards by using a card feat on that type of card, thus not requiring me to give up a card I had also wanted to keep.
To me, it is obviously option B. Which means, those paragraphs at the end of that section don't explain a sequence, they explain additional information that might factor into the sequence explained earlier in that section. In other words, 3-5 explain how 1-2 need to be done differently when you complete an adventure or adventure path.
I like to try to stick with as literal an interpretation of the rules as possible, but overall common sense has to be the main thing guiding how we read things. And I think common sense dictates earning the feat before rebuilding.
Could it be more explicit? Perhaps. But I think the intent is clear enough. That is my opinion anyway.
This is an interesting example. I always played it as option A, and it's true it felt awkward. Playing it as option B sheds new light on my issue and I'm starting to believe 3-5 indeed have nothing to do with the sequence initiated by 1-2. Which is a bit disconcerting: even if I don't expect the rulebook to read as computer code, it seems to undermine the general feeling I had about the game, which would be "don't interpret things, do what's written".
Getting back to the reward for Sins of the Saviors, if the card feat is acquired before rebuilding the deck, then I feel I would still be playing deck 5 at this point, and if I need to get a card from the box, I would limit myself to deck 3, right? If I understand correctly, I think Firedale2002 would go up to deck 4. I would have gone to deck 4 with my initial view on this issue, but if we consider the card feat is earned before rebuilding, it seems to me rebuilding is part of cleaning up at the end of adventure 5, not the beginning of adventure 6.
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We play it as Option B. Probably an oversight on our part if we go literally. But as far as what you're stating about rewards and what cards you can use, we would limit it to "3" in your example. We don't have access to "4" cards until after completing the first scenario of the 6th Adventure. (As we are playing it.)
we talked about this earlier this year, and consensus then was that you are not playing an adventure until you've actually started it
Our group has always played the same way as Theryon's, Hawk's, and others, and I'm pretty certain that's the intention
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This is a good point, and it's easily fixable. We certainly play that you get all your rewards before rebuilding. Thanks for calling it out.
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In terms of which cards to use when building the deck - I think it depends on the time of the rebuild.
What I am referring to hear is the circumstance of 'character death'.
If the party just succeeded at the last scenario of deck 5, all surviving members would have to build their deck out of existing cards belonging to the party - and then if needed, could pull from deck 3 and above.
If a player has a character who died though, and they wanted to just join the party for deck 6 (without having to build up through all the other scenarios) - I would argue that they are starting with adventure 6 even if it hasn't been played yet (as they were not part of the party for the last scenario of 5). Therefore I would expect the new character to be able to build using deck 4.
They'd still probably be underpowered because of the lack of feats, but I think this gives them at least a little boost.
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In terms of which cards to use when building the deck - I think it depends on the time of the rebuild.
What I am referring to hear is the circumstance of 'character death'.
If the party just succeeded at the last scenario of deck 5, all surviving members would have to build their deck out of existing cards belonging to the party - and then if needed, could pull from deck 3 and above.
below plus any cards from the dead character as they are available according to the rulebook (pg 14). Any extras are banished.
If a player has a character who died though, and they wanted to just join the party for deck 6 (without having to build up through all the other scenarios) - I would argue that they are starting with adventure 6 even if it hasn't been played yet (as they were not part of the party for the last scenario of 5). Therefore I would expect the new character to be able to build using deck 4.
They'd still probably be underpowered because of the lack of feats, but I think this gives them at least a little boost.
Yes, if you are starting 6, you'd get to choose from 4. According to the rules, you don't get any of the previous feats.
But our group doesn't do that ... sorta. We have yet to have a character die. We have, however, had new players join for the night. We have characters that are prepped just in case of this. And they have the same number of feats, etc. as we do. That way they aren't crippling the rest of us with a lack of card feats or powers or skills. The problem with the way the rules go, it not only hampers the player starting over but also the group. If you are starting deck 6 with NONE of the previous skills, powers or card feats, but still have access to cards through 4, you're still a detriment to the party overall.
My point of it is that it specifically says See Between Games when it mentions the scenario reward. So all of that happens AFTER the scenario is fully completed and all rewards given out. It can't be between games if you're still gaining the reward for your current scenario, adventure, or adventure path.
You gain the rewards before you rebuild your deck, and as soon as you gain the reward, it kicks in immediately if it's a feat, so that slot is available when you rebuild your deck.