Using the sun to hide approach?

[Xzaral]

Trying to keep things generic to avoid spoilers.

So this Sunday my PCs are going to be traveling by boat. They will be getting ambushed. Ambushers will include a sorcerer mounted on flying creature. I plan to have wizard and mount fly in using the sun to help hide their approach, but I'm having trouble deciding the DC on the perception rolls to spot him. It will be daytime. Not sure if levels matter but the PCs are 8th, the sorcerer is 10th. Any advice on how you would do it? The wizard will probably begin his own assault at about 800'ish feet (long range for him to begin softening them up before he approaches closer).

[KestrelZ]

This is one of those areas where your own judgment should be used since the rules don't directly cover it.

If you attack at dawn with the sun behind you, a +1 bonus to AC or a 10% concealment bonus might be fair against opponents that are dazzled by the light.

Camouflaged clothing might give a +1 circumstance bonus for stealth, something the rule book does not seem to cover either.

[Xzaral]

I was mostly wanting to use the sun to hide rather than combat bonuses (simply because I know odds are they'll be forgotten). I was thinking maybe letting it be enough to make a stealth roll, but then distance would make it hardly an issue unless I upped the -1/10' to something a bit farther out.

[Avatar-1]

Set yourself and your mount* on fire and put yourself in between the sun and the enemy.

Nobody will suspect a thing.

*maybe not the mount, because that's cruelty to animals, but if it's summoned using the Mount spell, it's not real and that's probably ok

[Owly]

I'd go with the +2/+4/+6 rule.

A success on the party's Perception would reflect the fact they may anticipate such a tactic in an ambush, and/or see an unusual shadow on the water around them.

[Lord Foul II]

This is actually covered by the hellcat stealth feat
Make a normal stealth check, then reduce it by 10
Maybe add a +2 to 5 circumstance bonus on top of that

[Magda Luckbender]

Plus the mount and sorcerer should both be invisible, buffed, and accompanied by many flying allies. +2/+4/+6 for coming out of the sun, the sorcerer & mount would get another +20 stealth for invisible. Huge distance penalties to Perception of watchmen, until the attack was almost there. An alert watchman would have a good chance of spotting a swarm of flying monsters coming out of the sun, but the invisible sorcerer should not be noticed until opening with a great spell. This is misdirection and trickery.

Here's one way the Sorcerer could approach from the sun ...:

Sorcerer flying at high altitude spots PCs. A ship is easy to spot, compared to a somewhat stealthy flying invisible sorcerer. Goes invisible, observes from high altitude from the direction of the sun.

After some observation Sorcerer chooses time to strike from high altitude, out of the sun. Spams 5 high level spells & repeatedly casts e.g. Summon Monster V x 2 for two Bralani Azata & Summon Monster IV x 3 for about a dozen eagles. Summon for 5 rounds, cast Haste, then send all the summoned creatures to swoop down and attack the ship, coming out of the sun. Everything burns 3 melee rounds swooping down from high altitude, HALO style, so your first summons (eagles) disappears at the start of Round 2 or 3.

Hasted Eagles swoop down on any exposed sailors, especially someone in the rigging. Each Bralani casts a Lightning Bolt to open, then hasted archery, and double lightning bolts again if any PCs clump up. All this will create quite a commotion and distraction. The eagles will draw attention from the flying hasted archery Bralani. The hasted Bralani draw attention from the sorcerer. This gives the sorcerer a good chance to unload 1-2 rounds of spells and escape unharmed.

Would sinking the ship seriously inconvenience the PCs? A 10th level Sorcerer ought to be able to send one puny sailing ship to Davy Jones pretty easily, before anyone aboard even knew they were under attack ...

[Umbranus]

I'd treat it as giving concealment. Being in concealment allows to use stealth.

[Xzaral]

I like the idea of saying the sun provides concealment and making it a stealth roll. Seems the fairest method to deal with.

Most of the rest of the encounter is already set. A few weak fellows with heavy crossbows and flaming bolts on shore (it's a river barge encounter) targeting the ship and crew, and a fighter (archer specialized) to throw into the mix (feats specializing on far shot/improved far shot).

[Magda Luckbender]

Remember to apply distance modifiers to Perception checks: +1 DC per 10' distance. This reaches a maximum +50 DC Perception check to spot someone at 500'. GM should modify this as seems reasonable, of course. I might house-rule triple that distance under ideal conditions: outside, sunny & clear, & high contrast background. At 10th level Fireball has an 800' range. A typical flying mount can dive about 400' per combat round. So even the most alert and perceptive watchman can't spot a creature diving from above until it is at most 1 round away.

Diving out of the sun will make it even harder to perceive them coming. Sure, treat it as stealth. Even without this help the defenders probably won't be forewarned of aerial attack.

[Cranefist]

Xzaral wrote:

I like the idea of saying the sun provides concealment and making it a stealth roll. Seems the fairest method to deal with.

Most of the rest of the encounter is already set. A few weak fellows with heavy crossbows and flaming bolts on shore (it's a river barge encounter) targeting the ship and crew, and a fighter (archer specialized) to throw into the mix (feats specializing on far shot/improved far shot).

It is more than concealment though. When I'm outside on a bright day, I actively avoid looking at the sun. I could go the whole day without looking up at the bright sun. I mean seriously, if something starts off too high in the sky to see, perhaps by guiding its flight by crystal ball, and then comes at you from the sun, you would never see it.

You would have to hear it coming. You are literally trying not to look at it.

I'd add a +20 bonus, and then roll again without a bonus when it is like 100' away, for like one guy working the ropes on the ship who might not be flatfooted during the surprise round.

[Xzaral]

The sorcerer will actually start his spellcasting at 800' (Call Lightning Storm, a bloodline spell) and I plan to keep him at this distance as he peppers them with it. Very little the party has is likely to hit him at that distance, and it's just outside the party sorcerer's fireball range (720' for eighth level).

Knowing the group's tactics I expect the druid to change into a huge flying creature (probably a Quetzalcoatlus), everyone to mount him, party sorc cast haste and then they charge the flying Sorc. Party speed will be 120' while my sorc will be 60'. This is when the archer comes into play. Overall it should be a pretty difficult and daring encounter. The archer's average damage is about 70 if all four of his attacks hit with deadly aim and the druid only has 77 hit points, so this is kind of a concern. But the druid's AC in this form should be 28 at that point so I'll need a 13 to hit before distance is added in on his good attacks. Of course the possibility of good rolls on my part could go poorly, so I'm hoping they stay over the river (this is how I plan to bring my sorc in) and will be generous on damage rolls if they hit the water since I don't believe falling into water is accounted anywhere.

The party's sorc has a lot of good mid-range spells, but his only long range are acid arrow and fireball, and he's notorious for missing attack rolls. So while he'll only need a 6 (maybe lower) to hit the archer with acid arrow I'm sure he'll miss.

I'm curious to see how the group does do it in the end in this fight. It's actually possible they'll run, one outcome I'd enjoy even if it does happen.