As written, the Furious Finish feat doesn't seem to apply to the Improved Vital Strike and Greater Vital Strike feats. But that'd make Furious Finish a pretty weak feat. Is there text somewhere specifying feats applying to the Vital Strike feat also apply to the Improved and greater versions?
In addition, the phrase damage dice is misleading. I believe the intent is to maximize the damage dice specified by the vital strike feat, but as written seems to replace all damage dice to be rolled for the attack, sneak attack and weapon enhancements (flaming, frost, etc) included.
Thoughts?
Links for convenience:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-vital-strike-combat---f inal
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---fi nal
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/furious-finish
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When using the Imp. and Greater versions of Vital Strike, you are still using Vital Strike and Furious Finish would maximize all the damage dice.
Actually, Furious Finish specifically calls out the Vital Strike feat. IVS a GVS do not make any reference to the Vital Strike feat. So by a strict reading of RAW, Furious Finish does not work if you decide to use IVS or GVS.
Ssalarn wrote: When using the Imp. and Greater versions of Vital Strike, you are still using Vital Strike There's nothing in the benefit text of neither Improved Vital Strike nor Greater Vital strike to indicate that. Vital strike is merely a prerequisite for those feats.
Ssalarn wrote: and Furious Finish would maximize all the damage dice. I agree that, as written, this is the case, but I doubt that was the intent given the wording of the vital strike feats regarding weapon abilities and precision based damage
midgardinruin wrote: Ssalarn wrote: When using the Imp. and Greater versions of Vital Strike, you are still using Vital Strike There's nothing in the benefit text of neither Improved Vital Strike nor Greater Vital strike to indicate that. Vital strike is merely a prerequisite for those feats.
If I'm using Improved Bull Rush, I am still Bull Rushing. You're suffering from forum induced rules parsing. The game is written with the intent that it be played by people capable of recognizing basic ideas like the fact that you can't use an improved vital strike without it being a vital strike, the same way you can't use am improved trip without tripping or an improved disarm without disarming. It is a game, not a legal document with the express purpose of thwarting people who throw common sense out the window. An improved or greater X is still X, and Furious Finish says that when doing X, you don't roll, but instead treat all damage dice as their maximum value. I'm certain that that matches the intent of the rules as well, since Furious Finish ends your rage and specifically states that you are fatigued even if you normally wouldn't be. This makes the feat chains scale in a perfectly balanced and linear manner at each level Vital Strike ould improve.
Ssalarn wrote: midgardinruin wrote: Ssalarn wrote: When using the Imp. and Greater versions of Vital Strike, you are still using Vital Strike There's nothing in the benefit text of neither Improved Vital Strike nor Greater Vital strike to indicate that. Vital strike is merely a prerequisite for those feats.
If I'm using Improved Bull Rush, I am still Bull Rushing. You're suffering from forum induced rules parsing. The game is written with the intent that it be played by people capable of recognizing basic ideas like the fact that you can't use an improved vital strike without it being a vital strike, the same way you can't use am improved trip without tripping or an improved disarm without disarming. It is a game, not a legal document with the express purpose of thwarting people who throw common sense out the window. An improved or greater X is still X, and Furious Finish says that when doing X, you don't roll, but instead treat all damage dice as their maximum value. I'm certain that that matches the intent of the rules as well, since Furious Finish ends your rage and specifically states that you are fatigued even if you normally wouldn't be. This makes the feat chains scale in a perfectly balanced and linear manner at each level Vital Strike ould improve. Can you show me where the Bull Rush feat is, because I searched the PRD and d20 and I couldn't find it. Until you can do that, your argument doesn't hold water.
Furious Finish specifically says, "when using the Vital Strike feat". It says nothing about when using the Improved Vital Strike feat or Greater Vital Strike feat, therefore it does nothing for you when using those feats. Also, IVS and GVS do not reference back to Vital Strike. They are their own separate actions with their own individual definitions.
However, I would say that you can use Devastating Strike with Furious Finish, since Devastating Strike says you are using Vital Strike.
Ssalarn wrote: If I'm using Improved Bull Rush, I am still Bull Rushing... the same way you can't use am improved trip without tripping or an improved disarm without disarming. I agree, and you'll find language in the benefit text of each of these feats that reflect that e.g. from Improved Trip:
"...when performing a trip combat maneuver"
There is similar language in the Improved Bullrush, Improved Disarm, and greater follow-up feats. In addition, in the benefit text of each of the greater combat maneuver feats, the interaction with the improved combat feats is specified.
No such language exists for the Vital Strike feat line. It seems you'd like to believe that Improved Vital Strike operates as
"When modifying an attack action using the vital strike feat, roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack three times rather than twice before adding the results together."
... but I can't find any rules text supporting that claim.
Ssalarn wrote: It is a game, not a legal document with the express purpose of thwarting people who throw common sense out the window. This is a game in which a wizard can produce a 40-foot inferno more than a football field away by playing with bat poop and sulphur while waving his hands and rambling gibberish. The mechanics of a fantasy game aren't totally within the sphere of common sense.
It's fine if you would prefer a feat or an ability to function in way other than as is specified in the rules text, and you're welcome to run it as you prefer in your own games, but don't try to assert your preference as 'common sense'.
My question was whether there was rules text that supported a claim that improved vital strike and greater vital strike feats stood to benefit from feats that modify to function of vital strike.
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
However, I would say that you can use Devastating Strike with Furious Finish, since Devastating Strike says you are using Vital Strike.
Ha, that's almost funny. I hadn't noticed that feat before. It's even from the same source as Furious Finish. Strange that they thought to specify an interaction Improved Vital Strike and Greater Vital strike in this feat but not in the Furious Finish feat. Maybe Furious Finish really wasn't intended to interact with the Improved and Greater Vital Strike feats. =/
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