5-99 and Death as an Inconvenience

[Ring_of_Gyges]

The Exchange mission requires defeating the assassins as the primary objective and "ensuring Guaril survives" as the secondary.

Is that "survives the assassination attempt" or "survives the scenario"? The difference being if the assassins attack, then the PC's arrive, then the assassins kill Guaril, then the PC's kill the assassins, the PC's have the dead body of a high level faction leader on their hands within a stones throw of the center of his powerbase.

What's to be done? Shrug, row back to the Grand Lodge, and get someone to raise him. He's 11th level, he should have plenty of money for the procedure. He's a faction head, he should have plenty of prestige within the faction (after all he's the guy who *gives out* prestige). Alternately the PC's may have ways to raise him themselves (scrolls of raise dead come to mind, but there are other ways).

In the above scenario did Guaril survive? He didn't survive the assassination attempt, but he did survive the scenario.

[TriOmegaZero]

If the PCs are willing to shell out the cost of a raise, I'm damn well going to give them that 1 Prestige Point.

[Iammars]

Yeah, that's the thing. Assassination in a world like Golarion doesn't just mean killing someone, it means destroying the body enough that you can't raise it afterwards. If the PCs stop the assassins from messing with the body to stop the raise and return him to the land of the living, they should get that extra prestige point.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

If the PCs are willing to shell out the cost of a raise, I'm damn well going to give them that 1 Prestige Point.

Surely Garil would reimburse them. If Garil's got 16 prestige the PC's shouldn't need to pay at all, just bring him to a Cleric sympathetic to the Exchange.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

James McTeague wrote:

Yeah, that's the thing. Assassination in a world like Golarion doesn't just mean killing someone, it means destroying the body enough that you can't raise it afterwards. If the PCs stop the assassins from messing with the body to stop the raise and return him to the land of the living, they should get that extra prestige point.

Exactly. The most obvious plan if the assassins have time is to feed the body to the Devilfish.

[Belafon]

Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

If the PCs are willing to shell out the cost of a raise, I'm damn well going to give them that 1 Prestige Point.

Surely Garil would reimburse them. If Garil's got 16 prestige the PC's shouldn't need to pay at all, just bring him to a Cleric sympathetic to the Exchange.

Except that would be "giving extra money to the PCs" (in the form of reimbursing them in a way the scenario does not anticipate). If the PCs decide to buy Zarta Dralneen a book for 5450 describing the hidden. . . preferences. . . of various Venture Captains, would you have her reimburse them because it is both enjoyable and useful for her?

I'm with TOZ. If the PCs pay for the raise dead (I wouldn't require the restorations) I'll give it to them.

Remember that although we use the generic term Prestige, it's really Fame that you earn in scenarios (with each new point of Fame giving a point of Prestige as well). If the PCs pay for bringing Gauril back to life he will be happy to spread a good word about them. If he uses his own resources, not so much.

[TriOmegaZero]

Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

Surely Garil would reimburse them. If Garil's got 16 prestige the PC's shouldn't need to pay at all, just bring him to a Cleric sympathetic to the Exchange.

But if Guaril spends his Prestige to get raised, the PCs haven't done anything notable to increase their own Prestige and Fame. A PCs PP represents the favors their faction are willing to do for them. Guaril doesn't owe them nearly as much for dragging his body back to the Sczarni as he does for them quietly raising him so he can swagger in on his own two feet bragging about how he bested his enemies.

Secondary success conditions are about going above and beyond in your efforts, not just showing up.

[BigNorseWolf]

Also remember that in golarion cosmology you can only raise someone while they're in the graveyard. The amount of time it takes a body to move on from the grave yard to... whatever is beyond is variable. Its entirely possible that pharasma is standing right next to him going "ahhhh.. we were waiting for you..." and fast tracking him to beyond the beyond.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

I can buy that. Raising Guaril is a lot better than letting his corpse get eaten by Devilfish, but 2 prestige should be reserved for getting the best possible outcome.

@BNW: Which book explains about that? Does that mean that the normal limits on Raise Dead (dead no more than 1 day per level) apply differently?

[Warwick Cailean]

Ring_of_Gyges wrote:

He's a faction head, he should have plenty of prestige within the faction (after all he's the guy who *gives out* prestige).

Guaril doesn't have enough prestige left for a Raise Dead. He spent it all retraining after his Crane Wing suddenly stopped working.

[Ascalaphus]

BigNorseWolf probably means the Boneyard, not a random graveyard. And it's been made pretty clear that this bit of flavor has no mechanical effect. Rather, if someone's been dead long enough that raising/resurrecting doesn't work (as described in those spells), that's a sign that he's been processed.

Since Pharasma is the goddess of prophecy as well, it's assumed she already knew that person was going to get raised, and doesn't care; "it's not his time yet, he just died prematurely".

---

If there's a significant threat to Guaril's body and therefore his raising, then I guess the PCs do deserve some kudos for rescuing it.

[GM Lamplighter]

AS to the conditions: they are success conditions for the scenario, so Gueril must survive the scenario to get the point. If he dies before you hand out Chronicles, they would only get the point if they raised him. (Personally, I'd forfeit the PP and animate the jerk, and make him carry my stuff... but that's me.)

[BigNorseWolf]

Ascalaphus wrote:

BigNorseWolf probably means the Boneyard, not a random graveyard. And it's been made pretty clear that this bit of flavor has no mechanical effect.

Well, it has no mechanical effect on PLAYERS. But this is a story effect ie, why do we fear death more than the loss of the 8,000 gp that I'm sure Guaril has burried in a coffee can in at least half a dozen places including 2 at the pickled imp.

Quote:

Since Pharasma is the goddess of prophecy as well, it's assumed she already knew that person was going to get raised, and doesn't care; "it's not his time yet, he just died prematurely".

Or if the story needs it. "Your time has come. No backsies"

[Ascalaphus]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

BigNorseWolf probably means the Boneyard, not a random graveyard. And it's been made pretty clear that this bit of flavor has no mechanical effect.

Well, it has no mechanical effect on PLAYERS. But this is a story effect ie, why do we fear death more than the loss of the 8,000 gp that I'm sure Guaril has burried in a coffee can in at least half a dozen places including 2 at the pickled imp.

Quote:

Since Pharasma is the goddess of prophecy as well, it's assumed she already knew that person was going to get raised, and doesn't care; "it's not his time yet, he just died prematurely".

Or if the story needs it. "Your time has come. No backsies"

That could be the case for NPCs I suppose, though I'd say only if the scenario calls for it.

[Fromper]

Ascalaphus wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

BigNorseWolf probably means the Boneyard, not a random graveyard. And it's been made pretty clear that this bit of flavor has no mechanical effect.

Well, it has no mechanical effect on PLAYERS. But this is a story effect ie, why do we fear death more than the loss of the 8,000 gp that I'm sure Guaril has burried in a coffee can in at least half a dozen places including 2 at the pickled imp.

Quote:

Since Pharasma is the goddess of prophecy as well, it's assumed she already knew that person was going to get raised, and doesn't care; "it's not his time yet, he just died prematurely".

Or if the story needs it. "Your time has come. No backsies"

That could be the case for NPCs I suppose, though I'd say only if the scenario calls for it.

It would explain why Baron Dalsine didn't have enough prestige to get raised from the dead.

[David Neilson]

Well assuming someone did not stand to inherit a vast fortune. Really slows down that burning drive to see your dear uncle again when you now get all his stuff.