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How do you balance the desire to keep the players guessing about what's going on vs. giving the players enough information to use any special abilities they have?
I used to collect saving throws on initiative cards so I could make saves against surprise attacks without the players knowing what's coming. However, with bonuses to saves against specific effects, under specific circumstances, or against specific creatures are getting very common, and there's no way I can collect all of them on the card. Add to that the fact that players also have situational boons or uses/day options that they can choose to use, and I don't think I can justify making saving throws behind the scenes, without giving players the chance to use these abilities.
But...
Whenever I ask for a Will save, it goes something like this:
Player: Is it a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability?
Me: Yes
Player: Is it an illusion, compulsion, or a fear-based effect?
Me (digging out the books to double-check): Uh...no.
Player: Is it from an evil outsider?
Me: Yes
Player: I get plus 3 on this...
That really slows the game down. And newer players don't always know to ask all the right questions, and I don't think it's fair to punish them just for being new.
My other option is:
Me: Give me a Will save against a supernatural ability of an evil outsider--it's a mind-effecting, death effect.
Player: Hey guys, there's a evil outsider hiding around here somewhere--probably a kalavakas demon...
That really spoils the surprise.
Does anybody have any suggestions for different ways to deal with situations like this?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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My other option is:
Me: Give me a Will save against a supernatural ability of an evil outsider--it's a mind-effecting, death effect.
Player: Hey guys, there's a evil outsider hiding around here somewhere--probably a kalavakas demon...That really spoils the surprise.
I like surprise in games, but all those bonuses sure make it hard to be both mysterious and fair at the same time. That being said, I tend to say things like "Make a Fort save... do you have any specific bonuses for that?" and then I mention which ones apply.
A home game response could be to only allow PCs those bonuses if the creature has been positively identified, because then they know to rely on the thing they learned on that one wild Taldan mission or whatever. But this makes less sense when you deal with racial bonuses and stuff like that. It also makes Knowledge monkeys even more powerful and punishes PCs with cool boons but few skills. Oh, and RAW issues, I suppose, when being mysterious means a bonus doesn't work.
Your original plan to collect the cards make a lot of sense, but maybe switch to asking folks for their random bonuses before play starts? A little "I'll try to remember all of that in case those specific circumstances come up, and please forgive me if I forget" could keep things smoothed over?
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I tend to go with "What's your bonus for each of those? Give me the total without them." I then just basically adjust the DC on a player-by-player basis when saying whether they made or failed. Occasionally you'll get a real metagamer who looks at his neighbor's sheet, adds up modifiers and announces that only the bonus vs. evil outsiders was different between a pass or a fail. At that level there's nothing you can do but throw up your hands. (I usually say something to the effect of "please stop metagaming or I will make all rolls behind a screen from now on. It's going to slow the game down.")
I write down on my scratch pad the modifiers for the future as well.
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Example 1 Unholy Blight:
Me: "Give me a will save vs. Evocation, Evil."
PC: "Does corruption resistance affect this?"
Me: *checks and/or has the PC read the description* "Yes."
Example 2 Slumber Hex:
Me: "Give me a will save. Supernatural, Sleep."
PC: Is it an enchantment?"
Me: "No."
I'm not sure what the issue is...PCs will use metagame knowledge if they have metagame knowledge. Might as well err on the side of explicitness...
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I just ask them to make the save and they can ask me for specifics (at the top of the game, I tell players don't worry about repeatedly asking "Is it a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability?" and thank them for reminding me). I've never had it slow down a game because after the first instance or so, I already know what I need to know when I ask them for a save.
As for metagaming, I simply say "I trust you not to metagame" if something is a bit revealing via crunch. Almost every player I've asked that of adheres to that social contract...I've even had players voluntarily walk in to deathtraps knowing as a player it was a deathtrap because their characters didn't know any better.
As for new players, I'm more than glad to help them out the first few times in a game with reminders about their abilities before handing that responsibility back to them (or asking a tablemate to be their "table buddy" and generally help that player so I can focus on the game).
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The metagaming thing is generally commonsense (reiterate it if need be), but it sounds like that was your plan A anyway.
Just ask everyone to give you their specific-cases on saves at the beginning of the game, and give them the tools they need to do it. Help them to help you.
The other problem with running the saving throws in secret is that players who have a "add your Charisma bonus to a save three times a day" or "once a day, roll twice and take the batter result" abilities won't have the opportunity to use them.
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I always just get them to roll and give me their straight roll. Often it is not even worth looking at - they either pass without the bonus, or they fail miserably. You only need to do math if it might make a difference.
(Pet peeve: Player: "I roll a 16, plus 8 - does that hit?" GM: "Yes, it hits." Player: "Wait, another +2 for this, and +1 for this..." Player 2: "Don't forget bless!" Player 3: (etc.))
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Get your players in the habbit of insyead of asking if its poison to answer fort19, 21 if its poison.
"Will Save? 8 on the die- -16! 18 versus illusions. 18 versus poison. 20 versus fear. 19 versus enchantments. 22 versus illusion/fear. 17 against SLAs of demons. 19 versus SLA illusions of demons. 20 versus enchantment SLAs of demons. 24 versus a demon using an illusion, fear SLA (phantasmal killer, weird). And I've got a clear spindle ioun stone.
Actually, let me re-roll that."
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@ Jayson - This is by far the exception to the norm.
Most players will not have anywhere near that may circumstantial benefits and Pirate Bob's answer is indeed the ideal way to handle this.
In the instances where you have 9001 circumstantial bonuses then a card with your circumstantial benefits should be prepared and given to the gm to reference.
Taking it one step further and add in what GM lamp said:
As the GM have players give you their roll + any non circumstantial bonuses.
"Will Save? 8 on the die so with my normal will save 16"
Then if they fail but are within 5 points of passing you can ask if they have any situation benefits that may add to that roll. They then list the benefits and you apply them only if it matters and simply say you passed or failed. Doing it this way still may tip them off a little* but cuts down on the book-work aspect. A pretty good happy medium between not providing details about somethign thats suposed to be hidden and maintaining the flow of the game
*You can always ask a few time for bonuses even when it wont matter just to throw players off from being able to use this question to garner information.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Roll, see if they're even close , then worry about the weird qualifiers.
To expand on this:
GM: Make a Will save.
Player: Is it mind-affecting?
GM: Give me an "at least" and we'll go from there.
Player: Okay, I got a 9. I guess I fail regardless.
Player: Okay, I got a 19 on the die, so that's a 28 minimum. Is it—
GM: You made it.
Player: Okay, I got at least a 17.
GM: What do you get bonuses against?
Player: Fear because I'm a fighter, enchantment because I'm a half-elf.
GM: Okay, you pass/fail.
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On my own characters, if I have conditional bonuses, I'm already in the habit of framing it as "at least". Seems to work out alright.
I use Hero Lab. All of their saves are right there for me. I still have them roll it, however.
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My other option is:
Me: Give me a Will save against a supernatural ability of an evil outsider--it's a mind-effecting, death effect.
Player: Hey guys, there's a evil outsider hiding around here somewhere--probably a kalavakas demon...That really spoils the surprise.
Give that guy a high five, in the face, with a CRB. There, problem solved.
But for real, I'm pretty bad about doing this as a player. I just can't help it. If the GM says the room goes cold and I hear a faint babbling that gets louder and asks me for a will save, I get excited because that sounds like an Allip. Allips are so cool, and you hardly ever get to fight one. I just slip and say it out loud. I don't mean to spoil anything. :blush:
Gently remind the player that out of character knowledge shouldn't influence in character actions, and ask again for that save. If he wants to roll a knowledge check to confirm his suspicions, he can on his turn.