Which of the following bonuses stack together?
1)a competence bonus to CMB
2)a competence bonus to grapple checks
3)a competence bonus to attack rolls
I ask because all of them are bonuses to 3 separate things, but they all end up applying to the same roll.
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Competence bonuses do not stack; this means that you do not add the bonuses together for a given roll. The fact that they apply to "different things" is not really relevant; they apply to the same roll, and that is what matters.
Essentially, when grappling, you're rolling d20 + your CMB + whatever bonuses you get (subject to the stacking clause) + whatever penalties you get.
Similarly, when stabbing someone with a dagger, a +2 profane bonus to piercing damage rolls would not stack with a +2 profane bonus to weapon damage rolls even though they are "different", as they apply to the same roll (the damage from stabbing with the dagger).
Competence bonuses do not stack; this means that you do not add the bonuses together for a given roll. The fact that they apply to "different things" is not really relevant; they apply to the same roll, and that is what matters.
Essentially, when grappling, you're rolling d20 + your CMB + whatever bonuses you get (subject to the stacking clause) + whatever penalties you get.
Similarly, when stabbing someone with a dagger, a +2 profane bonus to piercing damage rolls would not stack with a +2 profane bonus to weapon damage rolls even though they are "different", as they apply to the same roll (the damage from stabbing with the dagger).
So I suppose these traits don't stack then:
Bred for War: You tower above most other humans and possess a physique of hard, corded muscle. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks and a +1 trait bonus on your CMB because of your great size. You must be at least 6 feet tall.
Serpentine Squeeze: You gain a +1 trait bonus on combat maneuver checks to grapple a foe, as well as a +1 trait bonus to your CMD whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
That makes sense. I guess I was thinking it was more along the lines of a belt of giant strength stacking with a +1 longsword, but I guess in that case the bonus gets converted into an unnamed bonus after going through the ability.
It gets converted to a STRENGTH bonus, not unnamed
That makes sense. I guess I was thinking it was more along the lines of a belt of giant strength stacking with a +1 longsword, but I guess in that case the bonus gets converted into an unnamed bonus after going through the ability.
I suppose you're right. I've always thought of it as a "strength modifier", but combing through the crb I see quite a few instances in which strength mod and strength bonus are used interchangeably.
After putting some thought into this topic, I think I figured out what's hanging me up:
The amulet of natural armor is a wildly popular magic item that provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor. Additionally, people regularly take enhancement bonuses on shields and armor. If what is said above about a CMB enhancement bonus and a grapple check enhancement not stacking is correct, then any two enhancement bonuses in the AC bonus pile also don't stack. That would mean the amulet of natural armor, enhanced shield bonuses, and enhanced armor bonuses don't stack with one another. I've never heard anyone state something to this effect before. Is this true?
Which of the following bonuses stack together?
1)a competence bonus to CMB
2)a competence bonus to grapple checks
3)a competence bonus to attack rollsI ask because all of them are bonuses to 3 separate things, but they all end up applying to the same roll.
I've oft wondered this as well, and may well have a thread of my own about it somewhere.
Belt of Giant Strength is an Enhancement Bonus to your Strength
+1 sword is an Enahncement Bonus to your attack,
same type, but affecting 2 different things, they stack
Amulet of Nat Armor is an Ehancement to Natural Armor, +1 Armor is an ehancement Bonus to Armor, +1 Shield is an ehancement bonus to Shield all 3 are different types, they stack
Bracers of Armor are an ehancement Bonus to Armor, +1 Armor is an ehancement Bonus to Armor, take whichever offers the greater Bonus, they do not stack.
So what say you of the OP's specific example, kind sir?
Belt of Giant Strength is an Enhancement Bonus to your Strength
+1 sword is an Enahncement Bonus to your attack,
same type, but affecting 2 different things, they stack
Amulet of Nat Armor is an Ehancement to Natural Armor, +1 Armor is an ehancement Bonus to Armor, +1 Shield is an ehancement bonus to Shield all 3 are different types, they stack
Bracers of Armor are an ehancement Bonus to Armor, +1 Armor is an ehancement Bonus to Armor, take whichever offers the greater Bonus, they do not stack.
But they all stack into AC. I've actually always played it the way you are stating, but if:
1) CMB = BAB + strength bonus + special size bonus + other bonuses (such as the CMB trait bonus provided by Bred for War)And a grapple check is d20 + CMB + grapple check bonuses (like the trait bonus from Serpentine Squeeze)
2) Natural Armor Bonus (net) = Natural Armor Bonus + other bonuses (like the Amulet of Natural Armor's enhancement bonus)
Shield bonus (net) = shield bonus + other bonuses (like the shield enhancement bonus)
Armor bonus (net) = armor bonus + other bonuses (like the armor enhancement bonus)
And
AC = 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
Based on the above, the same logic that makes 2 stack makes 1 stack. Therefore, they either both work or both don't work from what I can tell.
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There is no such thing as a grapple check Grappling is a Combat Maneuver:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Since their is no Grapple check, it all adds into the same Combat Maneuver attack roll. That being the case one is a competence bonus to combat maneuver rolls in general, and the other is a competance bonus to combat maneuver rolls specifically made to Grapple. Same bonus type applied to the same mechanic there fore it does not stack.
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Technically, circumstances from different circumstances will stack, just to be clear.
First things first, even before my initial post, I was 99% sure that 2 and 3 didn't stack with each other. The aim of the topic was more to see how each of them interacted with 1. I get the feeling that some participants in this thread are focusing on the part that seems clear cut.
I also used competence bonus for the first post as a generalized example of a bonus that I knew wouldn't stack on the same thing when worded in exactly the same way, i.e. it was clear that two bonuses worded like 1, 2, or 3 didn't stack with a different bonus of the same number.
Just to make a few things clear, I feel that I am very familiar with the stacking rules as they are presented in the CRB. My uncertainty has more to do with how a bonus type changes when applied at different points in the stack and where those points are.
In my armor class example, the enhancement bonus to natural armor raises the natural armor bonus to AC. Similarly, the enhancement bonus to a shield raises the shield bonus to AC. When tallying the final AC, we then stack the enhanced natural armor bonus and enhanced shield bonus. Thus the individual enhancement bonuses to the shield and natural armor are effectively converted into different bonuses as they go through different points of the process.
Going back to the trait bonus example, the order of stacking and where the bonuses get stacked becomes important. The exact wording states:
A
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.
and
B
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
I first assume that an "attempt to perform a combat maneuver" is the same thing as a "combat maneuver check" (looking through examples of the term in the CRB heavily supports the interchangeability). Next, the trait bonus provided by "Bred for War" increases the combat maneuver bonus (CMB). Following the same logic as the AC example above, the trait bonus from Bread for War is effectively converted into a combat maneuver bonus for part B, the combat maneuver check.
The question arises then of: at what point does the "Serpentine Squeeze" bonus to "combat maneuver checks(to grapple)" get added. If you think that this bonus is implicitly added to the point denoted by quote A, then it is apparent that there are two trait bonuses in the equation and they don't stack. On the other hand, if the trait bonus from Serpentine Squeeze is applied at the point denoted by quote B, then the Bred for War bonus has already effectively been converted into part of the combat maneuver bonus and the two traits would then stack.
Regardless. I'm honestly at the point where I wouldn't attempt to take the two traits together just because of the complexity involved. I just wanted to explain my train of thought.
my apologies, I was just trying to ensure I was clear about things.
IMO, better to take Bred for war & a second trait that does something different as BfW covers what Serpentine Squeeze does already.
No problem Dolanar. I just used the bold text as an eye catcher in case someone was glossing over the posts after reading the initial one.
I'm probably going to take Honored Fist of the Society instead of Serpentine Squeeze. I think Serpentine Squeeze is a bit better for a dedicated grappler, but I never really liked the idea of worshipping Ydersius anyways.
Nefreet- that seems so simple and straightforward, but I keep going back to the AC example that seemingly contradicts this. I understand that AC is a statistic rather than a check, but I can't find evidence of a check and a statistic following different stacking rules.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic.
I'm pretty sure the designers just wanted one trait that worked for all combat maneuver offense and another that simply worked just for grapple (offense and defense), neither of which that were intended to stack. It's a safe bet that I'm entirely over thinking it.
On a side note, I can't believe I typed "Bread for War". I must have been getting hungry LOL.