My group loves my 'square' method, which we have used for years.
BlackMoria's Square
Roll 4d6 drop lowest. Get 6 sets of rolls. My players roll one or two sets and contribute the rolls to form six sets of stats.
I array the rolls side by side so the 6 sets of stats form a 'square' with 6 sets of numbers down and six across.
Now everyone can pick one of the 14 possible combinations for their stats (6 down, 6 across and two diagonal).
That's an average of roughly a 38 point buy!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I could not parse anything else in your post,
Lemme break it down for you:
1. Started with a story about an experience (implied to be a rare/new experience) trying out point buy. It was a near-TPK and was not fun.
2. This was used as support for the idea that point-buy is not fun.
3. In between the story and its application, there was the advice that if you roll low stats you should get new dice.
4. She then stated that she consistently rolls high stats, and then mentioned that characters should not all be equal.
Interpretation:
Based on an isolated experience in which point buy restricted her to lower stats than she normally rolls - and in which there was almost a TPK - IceniQueen has decided that point buy restricts fun. It's more fun for her to have high stats so she can avoid dying.
Shorter version: She has to roll wicked high stats to stay alive, and point buy keeps her from doing that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, with "balance" being the thing this board seems to argue about the most ("Is X balanced?" "Why is this archetype unbalanced?" "Paizo please fix the balance") I'm honestly surprised by all the support that random stat generation gets. While I find every other complain about the "balance" completely subjective, the fact that people don't start with the same attributes right at level 1, regardless of the class they choose, is unbalancing. End of the story.
As for contrived methods of fudging with the stat dice once you rolled (roll 5d7 +1 reroll 2s then solve a quadratic equation, and if you don't like it ask for doing it again), what's the bloody point? I thought you wanted random stats, not ALMOST random ones.
And I stand by what Cheapy said about rolling stats in order then come up with your character: may it die in a fire (the method, not Cheapy).
Now quick! Choose one of the following answers:
1- I like to roll for stats
2- I like to complain about randomness of stats
3- I like to complain about balance
4- I play the cheesiest build available at the moment
If you answered with "all four of them", congratulations! You are one of the guys from my former gaming group. May he die in a fire also.
The ONLY thing that saved the party from TPK which is NOT Fun and the game should be about Fun!!! Was the Barbarian kept making his saves and kept attacking and doing damage and the cleric could channel energy to damage the evil creature. Had it not been for these two things the whole party would have died.
Non of this has anything to do with the system you originally chose to pick stats.
12.250 average for 4d6 drop the lowest.
12.500 average for 15 point buy.
|
Life is NOT Equal so why should ALL Characters be equal.
They aren't equal. They are different characters, in roleplay AND on the sheet, especially if one character has 7 Wisdom and the other 18. I find it funny again that the people who claim that point-buy is not fun or that "characters shouldn't be mary suees !1" are the ones who are the most focused on the idea that stats truely define the character, instead of the character's aptitudes being represented by it's stats.
Do you roll the stats of all NPCs in your game instead of using the fast NPC stat arrays ? Or are you just being hypocritical ?
Why do your rapiers deal damage to a full-plate armored, high natural armor creature ?
Why are you even shooting fireballs ?
Heck, if you wish to feel organic and play REALITY, just get out and play "let's pretend the floor is lava" around a tree. You'll be a great roleplayer without stats. Or play a orc fighter with high ranks in bluff and stealth, because playing a human rogue would be dirty optimization. At least you'll not be saying others are having wrongbadfun because they want to play the character they want, exactly as they are imagining it, without feeling like they are overshadowing their friends or being the Robin of their Batmans.
Because clearly, wanting to define it's character's strengths and weaknesses shouldn't be allowed in a roleplaying game, especially if you are being good at what you are supposed to be good.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
You know, with "balance" being the thing this board seems to argue about the most ("Is X balanced?" "Why is this archetype unbalanced?" "Paizo please fix the balance") I'm honestly surprise by all the support that random stat generation gets.
Haven't you heard? We gamers are mostly a bunch of hypocrites. ;)
EDIT: Ha! I was even ninja'd by an accusation of hypocrisy!
12.250 average for 4d6 drop the lowest.12.500 average for 15 point buy.
The math doesn't work that way; you have to use a weighted average, not just a simple mean for the 4d6-drop-lowest.
The math doesn't work that way; you have to use a weighted average, not just a simple mean for the 4d6-drop-lowest.
12.250 average for 4d6 drop the lowest.12.500 average for 15 point buy.
What doesn't work what way?
I hope my point wasn't lost.
One nice thing about point buy is that it's immediately obvious what power level you're going to be at, at least stats-wise.
Rolling methods tend to be more complicated, especially once you figure in rerolling low dice and/or entire low sets of scores, to say nothing of the grid or square type methods.
Add in the inherent randomness and some characters being much tougher than others and it gets even less clear.
Also this. When I DM, the number of points allowed already gives me and the players an idea of how the campaign is going to turn out right from the start, wheter it will be challenging or a cakewalk. Good luck doing that with a complicated dice rolling methods.
BTW, I also do this for hps and starting golds, my array usually being full at every level; average +1 or average for hps, and max, average or you start naked in a prison for starting gold.
I've had the same reservations about rolling stats when I consistently saw at least one person unhappy with their stats for an entire campaign. Most of their unhappiness stemmed from their stats relative to others, so I decided to come up with a way to avoid this and still roll stats.
Normally, we would roll 4d6, drop the lowest, roll two sets and allow the player to choose which set they'd like to keep, discarding the other set.
Because we've all played since 1E, and generating characters was a lot of fun back then, and still is when rolling, point buy never has been and never will be an option.
So, here's the solution ...
Get everyone together for the first session, which is character generation. Have everyone roll one set using 4d6, drop the lowest. After each player is done, they decide amongst themselves which one set, of all sets rolled, they'd like to keep for everyone to use. This can be democratic or painfully obvious, usually the latter.
Everyone then uses those stats, and no one has to feel inferior.
Problem solved.
The math doesn't work that way; you have to use a weighted average, not just a simple mean for the 4d6-drop-lowest.
12.250 average for 4d6 drop the lowest.12.500 average for 15 point buy.
What doesn't work what way?
I hope my point wasn't lost.
Here's the percentage chances for each value for 4d6-drop-lowest (taken from this web site):
3 0%
4 0%
5 1%
6 2%
7 3%
8 5%
9 7%
10 9%
11 11%
12 13%
13 13%
14 12%
15 10%
16 7%
17 4%
18 2%
So you have a 2% chance of getting an 18 (which costs 17 points), a 4% chance of getting a 17 (which costs 13 points), etc. There's a bit of a grey area where it comes to filling in the point costs for stats from 3 to 6, but the average number of points for each die roll would be something between 3.1 and 3.2. The 2.25 you quote above is misleading (because, for instance, it doesn't include the fact that rolling an 18 is 17 times more valuable than rolling an 11, not 8 times more valuable, using Pathfinder's point buy).
After each player is done, they decide amongst themselves to keep the rolls with three 18s for everyone to use.
Hope you don't mind that I fixed your post a bit :)
No offense to anyone, but all these alternate random methods you proposed so far are trying to solve an issue that random rolls created in the first place, an issue that point buy does a much better job in solving.
|
|
Get everyone together for the first session, which is character generation. Have everyone roll one set using 4d6, drop the lowest. After each player is done, they decide amongst themselves which one set, of all sets rolled, they'd like to keep for everyone to use. This can be democratic or painfully obvious, usually the latter.
Everyone then uses those stats, and no one has to feel inferior.
Problem solved.
Or you could give them a 35 point-buy and be done with it ; instead of doing 4 to 6 rolls with 4d6 drop lowest on each, which statistically will result in a formidable array of stats at least once that everyone will want to keep.
Or make them roll only one array for the whole group, and keep the stats/reroll once maximum.|
|
Ooooh, here's another idea I just thought of:
Take the elite NPC array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 - if memory serves) and then randomly assign the scores to the abilities.
Quick, someone try it and let me know if it sucks or not!
Aren't Elite NPCs the exact equivalent of a non-mini maxed 15-point buy ?
It makes you good. Not awesome, but enough to survive if the DM isn't enjoying too much tough combats.
Ooooh, here's another idea I just thought of:
Take the elite NPC array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 - if memory serves) and then randomly assign the scores to the abilities.
Quick, someone try it and let me know if it sucks or not!
Aren't Elite NPCs the exact equivalent of a non-mini maxed 15-point buy ?
It makes you good. Not awesome, but enough to survive if the DM isn't enjoying too much tough combats.
He said randomly assign stats. Which is, like TOZ showed in his post, not that great.
So, here's the solution ...
Get everyone together for the first session, which is character generation. Have everyone roll one set using 4d6, drop the lowest. After each player is done, they decide amongst themselves which one set, of all sets rolled, they'd like to keep for everyone to use. This can be democratic or painfully obvious, usually the latter.
Everyone then uses those stats, and no one has to feel inferior.
Problem solved.
Is there any reason to pick one? Rather than allowing everyone to use which ever set they prefer?
That allows people to opt for either the SAD or MAD approach, rather than one for the whole group.
Do bear in mind that it'll be significantly higher on average than standard 4d6.
Hadn't really thought of it that way, but if someone wanted to pick a different set, I don't see why not.
After each player is done, they decide amongst themselves to keep the rolls with three 18s for everyone to use.Hope you don't mind that I fixed your post a bit :)
No offense to anyone, but all these alternate random methods you proposed so far are trying to solve an issue that random rolls created in the first place, an issue that point buy does a much better job in solving.
Hardly. Most often there are no 18's. Try not to post like you actually know what you're talking about when running on supposition. It's embarrassing.
|
|
Here is a little something for people who want to use point-buy quickly without having to make calculations. Scroll down a bit to find the application.
I don't know if this already exists somewhere else, but it allways helped us to stat a boss NPC or PC quickly.
I found an interesting site on the web where someone breaks down all the methods ever used for stat generation in the history of D&D. I like how the person thinks. I don't completely agree but mostly I do.
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/stat_generation.htm
|
|
Hardly. Most often there are no 18's. Try not to post like you actually know what you're talking about when running on supposition. It's embarrassing.
Not to beat a dead horse, but are you sincerely trying to make people believe that essentially using this method, which, I quote the SRD : "... is less random than Classic and tends to create characters with above-average ability scores" ; then making at least 3 to 6 rerolls of said array (assuming normal party size) isn't going to provide stats way above what the system assumes ? Please.
Hardly. Most often there are no 18's.Not in the groups I've been in.
But TOZ didn't you say earlier you use 42 point buy?
I can imagine that results in a great many 18s. :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wasn't always the DM, Min.
Here is a little something for people who want to use point-buy quickly without having to make calculations. Scroll down a bit to find the application.
I don't know if this already exists somewhere else, but it allways helped us to stat a boss NPC or PC quickly.
I use this site since it has one for 3.5 as well as PF. It even adjusts for racial mods!
The 2.25 you quote above is misleading (because, for instance, it doesn't include the fact that rolling an 18 is 17 times more valuable than rolling an 11, not 8 times more valuable, using Pathfinder's point buy).
I wasn't trying to be misleading but:
12.250 average for 4d6 drop the lowest.
12.500 average for 15 point buy.
is correct. You don't have to take my word for it.
And I don't think its very misleading. Not when you consider what I was responding to.
The point is: that weather or not you choose point buy over rolling it wouldn't have changed the experience she had as she explained it.
If it would make a difference it would be due to good luck on the part of the people rolling. I wasn't factoring in good or bad luck. because on average you should have as much good luck as bad. Unless your GM lets you re roll stats which I also didn't factor in.
Get everyone together for the first session, which is character generation. Have everyone roll one set using 4d6, drop the lowest. After each player is done, they decide amongst themselves which one set, of all sets rolled, they'd like to keep for everyone to use. This can be democratic or painfully obvious, usually the latter.
Everyone then uses those stats, and no one has to feel inferior.
Problem solved.
Or you could give them a 35 point-buy and be done with it ; instead of doing 4 to 6 rolls with 4d6 drop lowest on each, which statistically will result in a formidable array of stats at least once that everyone will want to keep.
Or make them roll only one array for the whole group, and keep the stats/reroll once maximum.I wonder about trying that method, or the square one suggested earlier, with straight 3d6 (or 3d6 reroll 1s). Or only roll x times rather the once per player, where x is whatever is likely to
As I said, I dislike point buy, but want to avoid both extreme variation between characters and stat escalation.
The 6x6 grid allows a lot of combinations and permutations. Too many I'd say.
But four series of 4d6 drop lowest (assuming there are 4 players) are likely to give one good array without getting out of hand. At least it gives the guy (or gal) who can't roll a decent character to save their life a break (because there's always one), and the thrill of rolling is preserved.
Personally, I'd leave all four players chose whichever they prefers among the four series... That's what I plan to do in my next game if point-buy is voted out.
Personally, I'm luke-warm about point-buy. It works fine but it feels bland. Some will think that this is a poor argument; but there it is. I prefer bland over unsatisfied player, but I prefer the bit of randomness that rolling brings.
'findel
Hardly. Most often there are no 18's. Try not to post like you actually know what you're talking about when running on supposition. It's embarrassing.Not to beat a dead horse, but are you sincerely trying to make people believe that essentially using this method, which, I quote the SRD : "... is less random than Classic and tends to create characters with above-average ability scores" ; then making at least 3 to 6 rerolls of said array (assuming normal party size) isn't going to provide stats way above what the system assumes ? Please.
"The average roll on 4d6 drop lowest is 12.244, compared to 10.5 on a straight 3d6. Your most likely rolls on a straight 3d6 are 10 or 11; this is the basis of the human average as well as minimum and maximums. Of course, a straight 3d6 rarely generates you a lot of high ability scores.
The odds of rolling an eighteen in one roll are 1.620%, or just over one in sixty-two. However, a character has six rolls arranged as desired – the chance of rolling at least one eighteen are 9.337%, a little better than one in eleven."
Yeah ... please.
You also need to refrain from guesswork in your posts. The first time's embarrassing, the second time is just annoying.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 12Rogue?
Are you crazy? That's a cleric! High CON and decent DEX for AC means he'll be (reasonably) sturdy. He gets an extra channel with his CHA. His WIS isn't great, but you don't need to worry about save DCs with things like healing spells or buffs.
Have him take a couple of "pew pew laser" domains and his DEX is high enough to hit with ranged touch attacks consistently enough.
Yeah, that's totally a cleric.
Ok, let's just see what we could get with 4d6, drop the lowest, each player rolls one stat array, and the party picks one for all of 'em.
Let's assume 6 players (about average for my group).
Player 1: Result of 17; 15; 14; 13; 12; 8.
Player 2: Result of 17; 14; 10; 10; 9; 7
Player 3: Result of 16; 16; 14; 14; 12; 10
Player 4: Result of 17; 16; 13; 12; 12; 7
Player 5: Result of 16; 13; 11; 11; 9; 8
Player 6: Result of 16; 13; 12; 12; 11; 11
Ok, not one 18 among them, but a few really high valued arrays. Of these six, my party would take #3 in a heart beat (31-point buy!), although a few caster-types might hold out for #1 (28-point buy).
Master Arminas
Ok, let's just see what we could get with 4d6, drop the lowest, each player rolls one stat array, and the party picks one for all of 'em.
Let's assume 6 players (about average for my group)....
Looks like Player 1 and 3 rolled the best?
Of course, after dropping the lowest, it looks like this ...
Player 1
4d6 ⇒ (6, 5, 4, 1) = 15
4d6 ⇒ (6, 3, 1, 5) = 14
4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 6, 1) = 13
4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 2, 5) = 17
4d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 5, 1) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 2, 2) = 10
Player 3
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 4, 6) = 16
4d6 ⇒ (6, 2, 6, 4) = 16
4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 3, 4) = 14
4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 5, 3) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 3, 1) = 10
4d6 ⇒ (6, 3, 1, 5) = 14
Not overly powerful by any stretch, and the group rolling and cheering each other on is the first step in working together. Amazing, actually, how fun it can be when you're not on a message board being needlessly derisive.
Edit: Added Player 1 results, as well.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Organizing the stats rolled by Master Arminas' hypothetical players (and equivalent point-buy value):
.
.
.
P1: 17,15,14,13,12,8 (23pt)
P2: 17,14,10,10,9,7 (13pt)
P3: 16,16,14,14,12,10 (32pt)
P4: 17,16,13,12,12,7 (26pt)
P5: 16,13,11,11,9,8 (12pt)
P6: 16,13,12,12,11,11 (19pt)
I HATE ROLLING STATS
we would always roll IN FRONT of the Dm, and i would always roll WELL above average.
Example for The Jade Regent AP our Dm insisted on 4d6 drop the lowest, 3 sets and choose the best
My human magus has str 10, dex 18, con 14, int 20, wis 12, cha 16
AND THAT WASN'T MY BEST SET
Our goblin (grrr) monk on the other hand
str 12, dex 14, con 12, int 13, wis 14, cha 9
and the goblin was the one PUSHING for rolled stats, our ranger also has god stats, our cleric and rouge have a little above average
and the fact that the APs are made to work on 20 pt buy (i think) so this i gonna be a train wreck
last night we got to the dungeon with the skeleton samurai and it was my magus, the ranger, and the cleric, the others couldn't make it. and we walked though (the amoeba was tough though) i stood in front and was attacked (22 ac from shield spell dex and chain shirt) and the dm kept missing while i did almost nothing and the other 2 hit him with slings.
it was fun but too easy
Don't be a jerk.Amazing, actually, how fun it can be when you're not on a message board being needlessly derisive.
If I were being a jerk, I would denounce others' posts based on supposition and conjecture without a single moment spent researching the topic at hand.
Thank you for your concern.
|
|
It's really nice and cool to copy-paste statistics to show how knowledgeable you are, but when you add in the "oh, and reroll like 3 or 4 times" detail in the equation, you still show that the argument about your method being waaaay more powered in comparison to point-buy tends to be, you know, true.
Also, thanks for proving my point with a 30 and a 32 point-buy equivalent.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
... and the fact that the APs are made to work on 20 pt buy (I think) so this is gonna be a train wreck ...
Elite array (15 points), 4 PCs.
---
There are die-rolling schemes where PCs with low attribute totals get some other form of compensation (extra traits, or better access to starting equipment, or social status; that sort of thing). If you're a point-buy afficianado, does that address the equity issue for you?
I HATE ROLLING STATS
we would always roll IN FRONT of the Dm, and i would always roll WELL above average.
Example for The Jade Regent AP our Dm insisted on 4d6 drop the lowest, 3 sets and choose the bestMy human magus has str 10, dex 18, con 14, int 20, wis 12, cha 16
AND THAT WASN'T MY BEST SETOur goblin (grrr) monk on the other hand
str 12, dex 14, con 12, int 13, wis 14, cha 9and the goblin was the one PUSHING for rolled stats, our ranger also has god stats, our cleric and rouge have a little above average
and the fact that the APs are made to work on 20 pt buy (i think) so this i gonna be a train wreck
last night we got to the dungeon with the skeleton samurai and it was my magus, the ranger, and the cleric, the others couldn't make it. and we walked though (the amoeba was tough though) i stood in front and was attacked (22 ac from shield spell dex and chain shirt) and the dm kept missing while i did almost nothing and the other 2 hit him with slings.
it was fun but too easy
You raise a valid point on the AP's. Naturally, they are designed with point buy in mind.
Our group prefers the homebrew style of adventuring.
I would probably insist on point buy for AP's, since those characters would generally run their course by AP's end.