One of the flavor-based aspects of my campaign setting is the idea that "sometimes you come back different," i.e. being brought back from the death can and sometimes does have flaws. In some cases, you just can't return; in others, you carry the taint of the grave with you.
Previously, we've used the following mechanics to represent this:
- Version 1: One can be returned to life a number of times equal to one's Constitution modifier (1 in 20 chance of returning as a Risen, -1 on the roll per time previously returned to life);
- Version 2 1d4 + Con modifier was rolled at character creation, in secret by the GM. These points represented the number of times one could return (1 in 20 chance of returning as a Risen, -1 on the roll per time previously returned to life).
- Current Version: One can return as often as attempted, but the chance to return as a risen is increased (1 in 20 chance of returning as a Risen, -1 on the roll per time previously returned to life; Con modifier affects this roll, results equal to 1 or less are treated as a 1).
These creatures have returned from the grave one time too many.
A risen creature's CR increases by +1 only if the base creature has 3 or less HD.
A risen creature's quick and rebuild rules are the same.
Rebuild Rules
Senses The creature gains darkvision 60 ft.
Defensive Abilities The creature gains the Negative Energy Affinity, Resist Level Drain, and Undead Resistance racial traits.
Special Attacks The creature gains the Keening racial trait.
Keening (Su) Once per hour as a standard action, a risen can release an anguished wail. Any creature not of the Undead type or Half-Undead subtype must make a successful Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the user's character level + the risen's Charisma modifier) or become shaken for 1d4 rounds. A target that successfully saves cannot be affected by the risen's keening for 24 hours. Creatures that are already shaken become frightened for 1d4 rounds instead. This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.
Weakness The creature gains the Light Sensitivity racial trait. A risen increases its age category by one step per month. Upon reaching the venerable age category, a risen must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1 per day of life after venerable) or die. Such a character cannot be returned to life without the direct intervention of a deity who's portfolio includes Death.
Does anyone else use rules to give character death an impact in a system where, with good will and cash available, characters can be effectively immortal? What are the details of your system? How has it impacted play?
For the record, my players are the ones who suggested giving death an actual impact. We're interested, however, in seeing how others do it and perhaps further refining our method.
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Just having cash is usually not enough, in my campaign at least, the divine casters won't raise you all willing nilly. Usually if you aren't at least level 5, most people says that you had a good life, and don't bother. Moral/ethical concern etc...Arcane caster raising people is a little harder to manage but at the same time, very hard to accomplish, since it involves very high level casters with Limited wish or wish. Good luck finding such a high level caster and convince him to resurrect somebody.
Now if someone for some strange reason comes back to life a lot, there are many monsters in charge of the cycle of life and death, between the Inevitable, Aeons, Psychopomps, various outsiders etc...who will be more than willing to come and collect the soul of someone who just refuse to die.
We used to do something very similar, but after a few years it got tiresome. Ignoring the arbitrary nature of spellcaster demographics, availability, willingness, and so on, the constant hounding of the party by external forces, completely unrelated to the adventure, proved to detract from the story, in lieu of enriching it.
I used every trick available to keep it interesting, but when you're as fortunate as I am to play with the same group for 14+ years, it becomes predictable and "old hat".
I'm not knocking the method, mind you, as it can enrich a story at times.
Our die-not-so-hard bard player was frequently the cause of such "hounding" from beyond.
I tend to lean in the opposite direction... nothing prevents party congealing and inter-character cooperation and trust like having to pause the story when someone dies and work out a way why we'd integrate this otherwise-perfect-stranger into our inner circle of allies (provided, as none of my players have ever taken this option, that the new PC isn't just a promoted NPC that they already trust). So I tend to make it pretty easy to bring dead characters back, in the event that the player is interested in their character coming back of course.
Keeping it interesting tends to involve such favors incurring debts if the characters can't actually afford the service, or being limited to less preferred options such as reincarnate. So, so many amusing reincarnate-related shenanigans in my Kingmaker game. So much.
Psychopomps, Maruts, etc. have bigger fish to fry than a PC who dies and gets revived two or three times through the campaign. Compared to the guy who just necrotized three villages or the lady working on trying to revive an entire long-dead civilization, a few individual resurrections or reincarnates are small potatoes. IMO of course.
I like the Risen template, though not for its intended purpose. I might steal it for if such magic is used in places where certain influences are prevalent, or other fitting things.
Two of my all time favorite campaign settings (even above my own home-brew creation) were AD&D 2e Ravenloft (pre-splatbook explosion) and Dark Sun (pre-splatbook explosion). I mention this because Dark Sun introduced the concept of "Character Trees" to me. As you leveled your primary character, you had up to three alternate characters which could fill in when your primary character was busy doing one of the many time consuming things that might normally keep you from adventuring. Their levels were automatically kept within 1-2 of the primary character and so on.
We took this a step further, when a player wasn't available, we'd allow (alternating) a player to bring in his "alternate" as a henchman for a short period of time, or otherwise tie in these secondary characters to the background and history of the group as a whole, so when in use, the awkwardness of the change wouldn't be so pronounced. On some occasions, the party would seek out one of these background PCs for information and so on. When permanent character death occurred, the party would be able to draw on one of these individuals (deceased character's choice, of course, from his or her tree) - with which they were already familiar - to bolster the team.
Our resurrection issue is, admittedly, ALL my fault. While I'm still not convinced it was an total error, as it accomplishes exactly what it was designed to correct for, I've made it possible through use of the Heal skill (knowledge: medicine in our game), to resuscitate an individual within a certain time period under certain conditions. This "helps" low-level parties who don't have access to magic which returns the dead to life or access to resources to pay for such a thing. In this way, the character you've spent hours designing - both stats and fluff, of course - isn't necessarily hours of wasted time.
Keeping it interesting tends to involve such favors incurring debts if the characters can't actually afford the service, or being limited to less preferred options such as reincarnate. So, so many amusing reincarnate-related shenanigans in my Kingmaker game. So much.
I've given serious thought, very serious thought, to allowing that to be the one option which works without any side-effects of any sort. It really does add to entertainment value.
Edit:
I like the Risen template, though not for its intended purpose. I might steal it for if such magic is used in places where certain influences are prevalent, or other fitting things.
By all means and hope it helps; I use it, on occasion, as the result of someone "spontaneously" - usually an NPC - being granted a little extra time from the powers-that-be to finish some task set before them, as well.
I'm not familiar with "LSJ". What does it stand for?
Edit:
Never played nor run in a campaign where death can be taken that casually. In PFS, it has a definite impact on finite resources. Even more so when you can't rely on a party caster to do the casting and have to seek the spell from an NPC.
With magic that allows the dead to be brought back available as early as level 7, what checks and balances did these campaigns provide?
I'm completely unfamiliar with PFS. I've played with the same group for many years, every Saturday, at a table. I recognize the benefits of PFS and similar groups for folks, but have no interest in participating. Could you be more specific about the impact, please?
I think his point is more that even available that "early" in the game, the spell's costs were still significant enough on their own to make deaths and resurrections an expense worth more than batting an eye at. The same goes in my own games - I've never had a party that considered themselves wealthy enough that their response to a death was "oh we'll just raise him". Every group I've had that has reached higher levels has made a significant part of their profits set aside for a "healing and resurrection fund", and none has ever commented that the cost of such spells was anything less than painfully high.
For my primary campaign, I use the Death Gate system:
In my campaign, pretty much every person able to cast the spell knows this, and nobody know the affected party, so it gives the situation a certain gravitas.
For my primary campaign, I use the Death Gate system:
** spoiler omitted **
Reminds me of the Night Angel series by Brent Weeks.
I think his point is more that even available that "early" in the game, the spell's costs were still significant enough on their own to make deaths and resurrections an expense worth more than batting an eye at. The same goes in my own games - I've never had a party that considered themselves wealthy enough that their response to a death was "oh we'll just raise him". Every group I've had that has reached higher levels has made a significant part of their profits set aside for a "healing and resurrection fund", and none has ever commented that the cost of such spells was anything less than painfully high.
I see what you're saying. I believe I may have misrepresented myself with my hyperbolic example; much like your group, everytime we play we've got a group-coordinated fund, specifically for resurrection. I've heard a few comments about the cost being insignificant from one player, but that's ususally a comment regarding the loss to the world as a whole should his PC no longer grace the brothels with his presence.
Ultimately, it is extremely rare we do not have a cleric/oracle equivalent/druid in our groups. In fact, the ONLY times I can remember not having at least one of these classes was when I specifically requested it to fit a certain "theme" for some one-shot games.
FINITE RESOURCES. Especially in PFS. There is a limit to the absolute amount of coin your PFS character will have in the course of his/here career. Or Prestige that you will obtain PFS dos not operate on a Wealth By Level system so whatever coin or prestige you spend comes off of that total amount. Also remember that it's not just the cost of resurrection, it's those two permanent negative levels that ressurection leaves you with. They're not cheap to remove either.
When I first saw your response, I was concerned your post was going to involve you defining the terms "finite" and "resources". Thankfully, it's not.=P
I'll have to see if I can find a PDF for Pathfinder Society to get a better grasp of the prestige system you're talking about. While it doesn't sound much different than Wealth by Level, I'll withhold any judgment on it until I'm better informed. Thanks for making me aware of its existance.
For my primary campaign, I use the Death Gate system:
** spoiler omitted **
In my campaign, pretty much every person able to cast the spell knows this, and nobody know the affected party, so it gives the situation a certain gravitas.
That's a pretty interesting concept. Out of curiosity, does that make any casting of spells which return the dead to life carry the evil descriptor or is it otherwise considered an evil act? I could certainly see a paladin, for example, refusing to return to life at the cost of someone else's life - sure, it could be Jack the Ripper, but it could also be Mother Teresa.
One of my friends, when he GMs, use a mechanic which is sorta similar (inspired by an episode of Buffy). When you're returned to life, an equal and opposite "nemesis" is brought into the world as a counter-balance.
An interesting approach is to let dead characters keep playing.
It seems like nobody remembers 3.0's one unique campaign setting, Ghostwalk. It has all kinds of stuff in it. The fact that character death becomes a speed-bump actually kind of lends itself to better world building.
I have a copy of Ghostwalk, I've been meaning to make use of it. There's certain parts of my homebrew world where it could really come in useful.
We used it once, after a rare (very rare) TPK. Everyone loved it, too, but as you say, forgotten and very unique.
Just so it doesn't stay forgotten, I need to make it a point to highlight it as a possibility - group choice - in the event of a TPK, at the very least.
I'm not 100% sure I'd mind it seeing use in the event of a favorite character dying, either, though I'm not sure how well it would interact with a living party (i.e 1 ghost + the rest of the still living party).
That's a pretty interesting concept. Out of curiosity, does that make any casting of spells which return the dead to life carry the evil descriptor or is it otherwise considered an evil act? I could certainly see a paladin, for example, refusing to return to life at the cost of someone else's life - sure, it could be Jack the Ripper, but it could also be Mother Teresa.
I don't use alignment in that campaign, so it's a non-issue. A particularly moral cleric or knowledgeable paladin might refuse to return, but most folks aside from mid-plus-level clergy/witches don't know that little detail so refusal shouldn't come up much.
I've considered removing the "unwilling targets don't come back" clause from the spells, but I haven't really finished thinking through the ramifications of it.
The ramification would be for villains to raise the character and keep them imprisoned.
The ramification would be for villains to raise the character and keep them imprisoned.
Agreed and at best. At worst, they'd torture them until they got bored - everyone breaks, it just takes longer for some and a "torturer" would have nothing but time. If he went too far, just resurrect, rinse, and repeat. Pretty much the ultimate save or suck, but with no save (hence the "ultimate").
In the list of Land of the Dead prestige classes I'm working on, I might add Reaper. They can return to life, but only to collect people who should be dead. 10 kills and they get to bring back one person. It can be themselves, or someone else. Like Specter, from DC comics.
When I heard Risen, I thought of the Revenants from WOD. The ones from The Seeker were fun too. Their buddy is back, but they have to kill someone every day to stay that way.
In the list of Land of the Dead prestige classes I'm working on, I might add Reaper. They can return to life, but only to collect people who should be dead. 10 kills and they get to bring back one person. It can be themselves, or someone else. Like Specter, from DC comics.
When I heard Risen, I thought of the Revenants from WOD. The ones from The Seeker were fun too. Their buddy is back, but they have to kill someone every day to stay that way.
That's a really cool concept for a prestige class - I would love to see it when you complete it. I had, for a time, been inspired by the old Arnold Conan the Barbarian scene where Mako inscribed a lot of runes on Conan and they fought off the spirits if they wanted their pal to live. Was fun, but had its own problems (such as an instance of one of the living party members dying due to a Nat 1 while trying to bring their friend back).
The Seeker actually inspired the idea for the Risen, which I used in a Ravenloft game. Instead of the God of the Underworld, it was the Dark Powers bringing certain folks back.
I've only seen the television series, but plan to read the books when time permits.
Agreed and at best. At worst, they'd torture them until they got bored - everyone breaks, it just takes longer for some and a "torturer" would have nothing but time. If he went too far, just resurrect, rinse, and repeat. Pretty much the ultimate save or suck, but with no save (hence the "ultimate").The ramification would be for villains to raise the character and keep them imprisoned.
Hadn't thought about a saving throw. Hmm.
I had thought of this ramification, though, and it doesn't seem like a terrible thing. For that matter, in the current rules, does a dead character know the circumstances by which she is being raised? I always figured that all she knew was that someone or something was offering a way back from death.
In any case, it's a potential plot solution to a dead PC in a party that can't afford resurrection magic.