yup a no save Daze from the looks of it. Kill all those BBEG solo bosses :D
Well, that does appear to be the rules.
Just like Burrowing Bullet and so many other things, when I GM they will be modified as I find appropriate.
There's already a ton of stuff in the game that makes single enemies basically useless. You can also perpetually panic people without a save. Rule of thumb; Don't use single opponents.How does one perpetually panic with no save?1 Level of Rogue thug gives you an auto +1 rounds to intimidate to demoralize and when you hit 4 you can make them panicked instead.
So its 20+HD+Wis mod on a skill to make them panicked. Dazzling display will allow you to it as a 30 foot radius aoe. Mind you the DC goes up by 5 every time you use it, but by level 12 or so you can hold an entire encounter panicked for 6-7 rounds solid with no save if you build correctly and still not lose out too much on damage if you meet things immune to fear.
Wrong - you can make them frightened for 1 round. Not panicked for 6-7 rounds.
Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round.
Could we get full citations of both the deed and the cape, before we jump into some crazy conclusions? Because from the context, it appears more like you need to have a successful Feint attempt before you can utilize the Cape's power, and that's generally a standard or move action, depending on if you invested into it at all or not; in either case, they aren't Full-Attacking in conjunction, and it's hardly broken for them to be able to "auto-lock" a single target while doing so, which isn't even guaranteed, if I might add. Wizards are even more powerful with much stronger lockdown spells, so at best it's just a mark up for the martials (finally).
Also, I don't think many players are going to want to sacrifice this cape over getting a Cloak of Resistance +X.
Again, that's just speculation. I can't make an absolute claim until I get the full citations because my GM is too lazy to get this book right now.
Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with
at least 1 panache point can, as a standard action,
purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee
attack against with a wielded light or one-handed
piercing weapon. When she does, the creature is
denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the
swashbuckler’s next turn.
This hooded cape is crafted from fine
fabric with colorful embroidery and
elegant weasel-fur trim. Three times
per day, the wearer can spend a
standard action to purposely miss an
opponent, performing a dramatic feint
that causes that opponent to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC
until the wearer’s next turn. If a swashbuckler wearing the
cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses
this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start
of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
PRICE
14,000 GP
Standard action, no save, flat-footed and dazed until start of swashbuckler's next turn. And you only need to have one point, you don't spend it for Superior Feint.
Superior Feint doesn't require successful anything - you just use a standard action to purposely miss an opponent that you could have attacked, and that denies him his dex bonus to AC until your next turn.
So yes, this cape is definitely broken.
Sounds like this item needs to come with a Couch of Fainting.
That's kind of funny.
Another reason to keep Swashbucklers banned from my home games until I have a chance to rewrite their CLAs.
-TimD
That's kind of funny.
Another reason to keep Swashbucklers banned from my home games until I have a chance to rewrite their CLAs.-TimD
Why do you feel the need to ban the Swashbuckler? I think it's only the item interacting this way causing a problem. What other problems does the Swashbuckler have?
Performs the feint, perhaps it means succeeds with the feint?
Performs the feint, perhaps it means succeeds with the feint?
No it's referring to using the superior feint from panache
Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with
at least 1 panache point can, as a standard action,
purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee
attack against with a wielded light or one-handed
piercing weapon. When she does, the creature is
denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the
swashbuckler’s next turn.
It doesn't have a check for it.
Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with
at least 1 panache point can, as a standard action,
purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee
attack against with a wielded light or one-handed
piercing weapon. When she does, the creature is
denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the
swashbuckler’s next turn.This hooded cape is crafted from fine
fabric with colorful embroidery and
elegant weasel-fur trim. Three times
per day, the wearer can spend a
standard action to purposely miss an
opponent, performing a dramatic feint
that causes that opponent to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC
until the wearer’s next turn. If a swashbuckler wearing the
cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses
this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start
of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
PRICE
14,000 GPStandard action, no save, flat-footed and dazed until start of swashbuckler's next turn. And you only need to have one point, you don't spend it for Superior Feint.
So instead of using a full attack for some crazy damage, you can instead move and lock down one enemy. It's great for minimizing casualties for combat that's winding down, but it's hardly gamebreaking, given that Wizards can pull that kind of crap, except against every foe they come across, at the same time.
Again, that also comes at the cost of the shoulder slot, and needs 7th level for it to work, plus it only works against one creature. I don't see how this is an issue compared to what a spellcaster can pull, and he isn't doing any damage in comparison. There are better things to do with your Standard Action in the higher levels than lock down one single enemy, even if it's the BBEG, and that's to full-attack him dead.
Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with
at least 1 panache point can, as a standard action,
purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee
attack against with a wielded light or one-handed
piercing weapon. When she does, the creature is
denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the
swashbuckler’s next turn.This hooded cape is crafted from fine
fabric with colorful embroidery and
elegant weasel-fur trim. Three times
per day, the wearer can spend a
standard action to purposely miss an
opponent, performing a dramatic feint
that causes that opponent to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC
until the wearer’s next turn. If a swashbuckler wearing the
cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses
this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start
of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
PRICE
14,000 GPStandard action, no save, flat-footed and dazed until start of swashbuckler's next turn. And you only need to have one point, you don't spend it for Superior Feint.
So instead of using a full attack for some crazy damage, you can instead move and lock down one enemy. It's great for minimizing casualties for combat that's winding down, but it's hardly gamebreaking, given that Wizards can pull that kind of crap, except against every foe they come across, at the same time.
Again, that also comes at the cost of the shoulder slot, and needs 7th level for it to work, plus it only works against one creature. I don't see how this is an issue compared to what a spellcaster can pull, and he isn't doing any damage in comparison. There are better things to do with your Standard Action in the higher levels than lock down one single enemy, even if it's the BBEG, and that's to full-attack him dead.
Just because it isn't as bad as that time you ate 100 peppers doesn't mean you don't still have diarrhea.
He's just saying that it's not "Broken" It's like crane wing, you need to be creative in dealing with it because some of the standard plans don't work. So yeah, This ability makes fighting a lone guy an a room super easy. But an a room full of guys with a "boss", that's basically the swashbuckler's whole turn to limit 1 guy. Yeah the no save part makes it stronger, but someone wanting to do the same thing could have probably +80% success rate. Also you can just not let Swashbucklers get it if you have that kind of control.
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Why do you feel the need to ban the Swashbuckler? I think it's only the item interacting this way causing a problem. What other problems does the Swashbuckler have?That's kind of funny.
Another reason to keep Swashbucklers banned from my home games until I have a chance to rewrite their CLAs.-TimD
I hated banning the Swashbuckler, because I like the thematics. Sadly, the mechanics necessitated it for my games...
I ban both the Gunslinger & Swashbuckler classes primarily for their 7th level Startling Shot & Targetting Shot Deeds (or Swashbuckler equivalents). I'm not a fan of the auto-success mechanic on the Startling Shot deed, nor the called shot ability of the Targetting deed in a game system which is built to disallow called shots. The gunslinger has additional issues which mean I'll probably never allow it as a base class in a home game, but have been working on an archtype for it in case I ever run a Golarion-based game or a game where the PCs end up on Golarion.-TimD
Just because it isn't as bad as that time you ate 100 peppers doesn't mean you don't still have diarrhea.Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with
at least 1 panache point can, as a standard action,
purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee
attack against with a wielded light or one-handed
piercing weapon. When she does, the creature is
denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the
swashbuckler’s next turn.This hooded cape is crafted from fine
fabric with colorful embroidery and
elegant weasel-fur trim. Three times
per day, the wearer can spend a
standard action to purposely miss an
opponent, performing a dramatic feint
that causes that opponent to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC
until the wearer’s next turn. If a swashbuckler wearing the
cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses
this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start
of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
PRICE
14,000 GPStandard action, no save, flat-footed and dazed until start of swashbuckler's next turn. And you only need to have one point, you don't spend it for Superior Feint.
So instead of using a full attack for some crazy damage, you can instead move and lock down one enemy. It's great for minimizing casualties for combat that's winding down, but it's hardly gamebreaking, given that Wizards can pull that kind of crap, except against every foe they come across, at the same time.
Again, that also comes at the cost of the shoulder slot, and needs 7th level for it to work, plus it only works against one creature. I don't see how this is an issue compared to what a spellcaster can pull, and he isn't doing any damage in comparison. There are better things to do with your Standard Action in the higher levels than lock down one single enemy, even if it's the BBEG, and that's to full-attack him dead.
I'm glad you're calling a little toot to be a case of diarrhea. You want diarrhea, talk to the level 7 Wizard who can cast Dazing Fireballs as a 4th level spell slot, he expels them from his arse and has a lighter for a spellbook...
I don't think many players (or even the GM) would want to sacrifice the opportunity cost for some minor levels of utility. Not having a Cloak of Resistance really hurts, especially in the mid to late levels. Spending 14,000 for the level in which it can be constantly used may not be worth in comparison to having some pluses/properties on weapons or armor, or even a stat item.
Additionally, if you have to spend actions to deny Dexterity to AC and daze them so everyone else can hit an enemy, you're simply wasting your time if you can hit them just fine and the rest of your party can't because they have garbage for attack bonuses, since chances are you can down that same enemy in a given full attack (or less, as criticals are quite common for a Swashbuckler).
I'm glad having that 15-20/X2 multiplier with Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls, not to mention damage bonuses from class features up the wazoo that you, is nothing compared to making one guy do absolutely nothing for an entire combat.
True. But you can keep doing it. Over and over. Might wanna think about things before you scream wrong.There's already a ton of stuff in the game that makes single enemies basically useless. You can also perpetually panic people without a save. Rule of thumb; Don't use single opponents.How does one perpetually panic with no save?1 Level of Rogue thug gives you an auto +1 rounds to intimidate to demoralize and when you hit 4 you can make them panicked instead.
So its 20+HD+Wis mod on a skill to make them panicked. Dazzling display will allow you to it as a 30 foot radius aoe. Mind you the DC goes up by 5 every time you use it, but by level 12 or so you can hold an entire encounter panicked for 6-7 rounds solid with no save if you build correctly and still not lose out too much on damage if you meet things immune to fear.
Wrong - you can make them frightened for 1 round. Not panicked for 6-7 rounds.
Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round.
For one thing - Frightened is not Panicked. Frightened creatures don't drop their weapons, and can use the Withdraw action.
Secondly, Dazzling Display is a full-round action and has a 30 foot range. If you do cause an enemy to become frightened, he is going to move farther than 30 feet away from you - and then he can charge you on his next turn. Unless you're in a locked room, there's no way to use Dazzling Display 6-7 rounds in a row, and maintain the Frightened condition.
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Back on topic - the broken part about the Cape of Feinting is that it works on anyone. A 7th-level character can walk up to literally any single character or monster in the game and lock them down for as long as he wants, with no chance of failure.
Back on topic - the broken part about the Cape of Feinting is that it works on anyone. A 7th-level character can walk up to literally any single character or monster in the game and lock them down for as long as he wants, with no chance of failure.
It is a bit silly that a 7th-level anything can occupy the Tarrasque . . . forever. Or at least until he gets tired from all that hustling, starves to death, etc.
It is a poorly written magic item. It should require a check, or the effect should perhaps be an auto-feint, if it must be an auto effect.
Personally, I am (generally) opposed to magic items written for a specific class.
I wonder if the daze effect is supposed to be when using the cloak and the Swashbuckler's feint together. That would restrict it to 3 rounds of daze a day which is more sensible (although I must admit even then I'm not keen on any ability that automatically shuts down an opponent). However I agree that as currently written that limitation isn't there .
Back on topic - the broken part about the Cape of Feinting is that it works on anyone. A 7th-level character can walk up to literally any single character or monster in the game and lock them down for as long as he wants, with no chance of failure.
If a swashbuckler wearing the cloak of feintingperforms the superior feint deed oruses this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
I'm not sure if you paid attention to what it is you were reading, but that effect only works if you have levels in Swashbuckler.
Also, look at this:
Three times per day, the wearer can spend a standard action to purposely miss an opponent, performing a dramatic feint that causes that opponent to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC until the wearer’s next turn.
Additionally, the activation, the only other way to get the daze effect, can only be done 3 times per day. 3 times per day, which takes a standard action, means 3 rounds of combat. So on average, an entire PFS combat each day, which results in a single enemy losing Dex to AC as a Standard Action.
Honestly, I'm almost positive this is just a giant troll thread, considering the arguments behind everybody saying "IT'S BROKEN" are highly inconsistent amongst each other, impossible to reach given the RAW, and/or aren't anywhere in powerscale compared to other options that have been available since the Core Rulebook.
In any case, I'm done posting on this thread. If people think being able to lock down one creature in a given combat is OP, as the cost of being unable to contribute in about any other manner, which also requires a super niche investment to pull off, then heaven forbid you come across a Wizard who can do that and so much more with nowhere near as much investment required to do.
Honestly, I'm almost positive this is just a giant troll thread, considering the arguments behind everybody saying "IT'S BROKEN" are highly inconsistent amongst each other, impossible to reach given the RAW, and/or aren't anywhere in powerscale compared to other options that have been available since the Core Rulebook.
In any case, I'm done posting on this thread. If people think being able to lock down one creature in a given combat is OP, as the cost of being unable to contribute in about any other manner, which also requires a super niche investment to pull off, then heaven forbid you come across a Wizard who can do that and so much more with nowhere near as much investment required to do.
I'm VERY curious - how does a 7th-level Wizard shut down a Tarrasque or a Balor indefinitely, with no failure chance?
If people think being able to lock down one creature in a given combat is OP, as the cost of being unable to contribute in about any other manner, which also requires a super niche investment to pull off, then heaven forbid you come across a Wizard who can do that and so much more with nowhere near as much investment required to do.
Any enemy. Anything, anyone, any type, any race, for as long as you're awake.
If you can't think of a situation where a no-save "stand there like an idiot" with zero resource expenditure would be busted at 7th level, I don't even know what to tell you.
You can keep talking about how broken wizards are, but that's the point; Wizards are broken because they can do stuff like this, and more. That just proves this is broken.
Wizards are broken because they can do stuff like this, and more.
A wizard cannot do this. How many wizard abilities have no save, check, or SR? How many of them can be performed at 7th level?
Additionally, the activation, the only other way to get the daze effect, can only be done 3 times per day. 3 times per day, which takes a standard action, means 3 rounds of combat. So on average, an entire PFS combat each day, which results in a single enemy losing Dex to AC as a Standard Action.
Ah, it only works 3 times a day? That's a nifty little detail left out of the original post.
I DUN GOT TROLL'D
Edit: Or not. Apparently swashbucklers can use it as often as they want....
I'm VERY curious - how does a 7th-level Wizard shut down a Tarrasque or a Balor indefinitely, with no failure chance?
Why would the wizard be expected to do this indefinitely? The swashbuckler can only do it 3x per day as a standard action. A fair question is whether the wizard can do it for 3 rounds.
Wizards are broken because they can do stuff like this, and more.A wizard cannot do this. How many wizard abilities have no save, check, or SR? How many of them can be performed at 7th level?
With a modicum of planning, a 7th-level wizard can render those things largely irrelevant, but yeah, generally a roll would still be required.
How much does this thing cost, anyway?
If a swashbuckler wearing the cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
Pretty sure you can do superior feint as much as you want.
With a modicum of planning, a 7th-level wizard can render those things largely irrelevant, but yeah, generally a roll would still be required.
How much does this thing cost, anyway?
Its 14,000 to buy. Looking at it i have to say i don't think its anymore over powered until you read it can be used on ANYTHING. I mean seriously can you really see a great wurm calling for this. But by the rules as is it will and then get spanked in the 3 rounds by the other players.
I admit Wizards can do some neat stuff but they have limits with either saves. SR. Or the fact that it doesn't work on everything.
If a swashbuckler wearing the cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start of the swashbuckler’s next turn.Pretty sure you can do superior feint as much as you want.
Ah, that is correct. Only other classes have to activate the cloak. My error.
With a modicum of planning, a 7th-level wizard can render those things largely irrelevant, but yeah, generally a roll would still be required.
How much does this thing cost, anyway?
Its 14,000 to buy. Looking at it i have to say i don't think its anymore over powered until you read it can be used on ANYTHING. I mean seriously can you really see a great wurm calling for this. But by the rules as is it will and then get spanked in the 3 rounds by the other players.
I admit Wizards can do some neat stuff but they have limits with either saves. SR. Or the fact that it doesn't work on everything.
Kind of a small nit-pick, but the effective cost will be 21,000 since it goes in the Shoulder Slot, aka The Slot Into Which You Will Plug A Cloak Of Resistance.
Perhaps that "or" is supposed to be "and"? "If a swashbuckler wearing the cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed and uses this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start of the swashbuckler’s next turn."
That would be nice, but not crazy.
Kind of a small nit-pick, but the effective cost will be 21,000 since it goes in the Shoulder Slot, aka The Slot Into Which You Will Plug A Cloak Of Resistance.With a modicum of planning, a 7th-level wizard can render those things largely irrelevant, but yeah, generally a roll would still be required.
How much does this thing cost, anyway?
Its 14,000 to buy. Looking at it i have to say i don't think its anymore over powered until you read it can be used on ANYTHING. I mean seriously can you really see a great wurm calling for this. But by the rules as is it will and then get spanked in the 3 rounds by the other players.
I admit Wizards can do some neat stuff but they have limits with either saves. SR. Or the fact that it doesn't work on everything.
Heh, I'm for anything that gets people to try things besides the Big Six or whatever the kids are calling 'em these days.
I have a rogue/fighter built around the thug's mechanic.
But there is a few fallacies with the thug doing this over and over.
First - There is a check that is used for it. Don't pass the check, you don't get the intimidate. This check goes up and down depending on size too.
Second - Its a mind effecting fear effect. Vermin, Undead, Paladins, anyone with some fairly basic anti-fear stuff are going to be a bane.
Third - You'd have to keep passing the check, getting a +X over to make them frightened for one round. Because When you pop that cap, poof. All your shaken effects suddenly drop, as you blow it on making them frightened instead.
The cape however, I don't think anything can protect against it, as its not even a mind effecting fear effect.
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Its basically :
"3 times per day as a standard action stun an enemy for one round"
It should require a check or save, but i dont see it broken, probably powerful but not broken.
So yeah i consider broken an item/feature that can destroy a campaign, this probably gives you an edge on 3 encounters or lets you win one, which is what a wizard does anyway
If you still had to touch with this superior feint, or perform a feint, it would have been better.
I'm a little concerned you can daze a ghost (or an ooze) with a stick.
Still, it seems that a swashbuckler can parry an incorporeal attack with a stick too.
I kinda always thought you needed to actually 'hit' the target. Like make an attack roll to hit, but you actually just miss.
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Its basically :
"3 times per day as a standard action stun an enemy for one round"
It should require a check or save, but i dont see it broken, probably powerful but not broken.
So yeah i consider broken an item/feature that can destroy a campaign, this probably gives you an edge on 3 encounters or lets you win one, which is what a wizard does anyway
If a swashbuckler wearing the cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses this cape’s ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start of the swashbuckler’s next turn.
Pretty sure you can do superior feint as much as you want.
Swashbucklers with that deed daze lock anything in the entire universe forever.