What changed from 3.5 regarding copying spellbooks?
The only difference i can remember is the one day study of the spell vs the 1 hour study of the spell we have now.
If a player is smart, he will never pay more than 6,500gp for a copy of a spellbook.
What fantasy wizard would realistically let a smelly barbarian or an untrustworthy cutpurse so much as look as his spellbook, nevermind carry it? Right...none of them would, and yet in PF, it is standard practice. The rule encourages the players to break immersion and do things the characters would never do because they are teh win.
I have never seen this, and I have GM'd several different groups. If anyone is putting their hands on my spellbook it is because I have no other options.
Lack of any meaningful penalty for losing a spellbook is fine for wizards, but now along comes a class that has a very good reason to pull the spellbook out during combat...and now you have a problem.
I said in an earlier post while replying to YOU that if they pull it out in combat they deserve whatever they get. I would much rather take fast study if arcanist can take wizard discoveries than pull a spellbook out mid combat. But maybe that is just because I have had GM's that would be aiming for it as soon as it was out in the open.
Now if your stance is that due to this ability the arcanist should have a bigger drawback then you may be correct, but I don't know how lentient other GM's are, but it is a good topic to bring up. I know many GM's want the players to succeed, but I think think that even with backup spellbooks assuming backups are made this tactic wont be used often. I know in games I have been in the time to craft magic items, and backup spellsbooks, among other things was not there. I could never keep the backup spellbook even(on par) with the main one. However if a GM allows that type of downtime he will have to find a solution, if it becomes a problem.
Honestly, I find it funny how everyone is like "Well what happens when your spellbook gets sundered???? HA! NOT SO TOUGH NOW MR. MAGIC MAN!!!!"
Answer me this question...
WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR ARCANIST DOING IN MELEE??? I can tell you right now that I can count on one hand the times I have been caught in melee for longer than 1 round. And with the Dimensional Slide trick, it is even harder to try and keep the Arcanist in melee....
Honestly, I find it funny how everyone is like "Well what happens when your spellbook gets sundered???? HA! NOT SO TOUGH NOW MR. MAGIC MAN!!!!"
Answer me this question...
WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR ARCANIST DOING IN MELEE??? I can tell you right now that I can count on one hand the times I have been caught in melee for longer than 1 round. And with the Dimensional Slide trick, it is even harder to try and keep the Arcanist in melee....
If he is trying to use that exploit without gloves of storing the enemy will have time to get to him. Of course he could quicken DD away, or get shift(from the wizard subschool) instead of dimensional slide. Use the book exploit, and then come back into the fight with another shift on the following round.
If he is trying to use that exploit without gloves of storing the enemy will have time to get to him. Of course he could quicken DD away, or get shift(from the wizard subschool) instead of dimensional slide. Use the book exploit, and then come back into the fight with another shift on the following round.Honestly, I find it funny how everyone is like "Well what happens when your spellbook gets sundered???? HA! NOT SO TOUGH NOW MR. MAGIC MAN!!!!"
Answer me this question...
WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR ARCANIST DOING IN MELEE??? I can tell you right now that I can count on one hand the times I have been caught in melee for longer than 1 round. And with the Dimensional Slide trick, it is even harder to try and keep the Arcanist in melee....
But thats the thing, Arcanists are not easy to pin down. They can bounce around all over the place with ease, so the whole "sunder your spellbook" thing is nothing more than a odd niche scenerio done that requires a dimensional lock, crampped quarters, and the rest of your party to be twiddling there thumbs in the distance (i mean, where the hell is the rest of your party during this???). Honestly, spellbook sundering is not nearly as common or likely as many people seem to make it out to be "as soon as you use that exploit your spellbook is gonna get sundered!!!!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TLDR, it is hard to pull off without it looking forced. Even going after an arcane bond(assuming they have one) which is out in the open is not easy to identify, and get to.
Have to agree on this point. Targeting the spellbook in combat has always seemed like a stretch to me, since it does nothing to reduce the immediate threat of the wizard. It's essentially having the NPC abandon a chance to kill that incredibly dangerous wizard who will almost certainly kill him to avenge his spellbook, in exchange for causing the wizard long-term inconvenience.
Sure, there are scenarios where that could happen, like if you're up against fanatical suicidal cultists, but often the motives seem a touch metagame-y. It's a way for the GM to mess with wizard players, regardless of how little sense it makes in-universe. I'm sure it's happened in someone's game, but you never hear talk of players trying to sunder the spellbooks of enemy wizards. It only ever come up as GMs going after PC spellbooks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Id just like to say that people are taking Quick Study very lightly which is probably because they dont have good party scouts.
A quick reallocation of power cannot be utilized as effectively if you lack a good scout. The difference of a round vs a minute is huge and in part based on party buffs.
For example, the bard returns from his scouting run and informs you of what enemies are ahead. In this incredibly common scenario, an arcanist has way more power than a wizard through finesse due to not draining the buff time longer.
Ultimately Im more worried about the Exploiter Wizard with Quick Study.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except your wrong on multiple accounts...
1)
No matter what action you're taking it's a better choice than wasting a round in combat to swap spells.
Except sometimes it is actually better to waste a turn not casting an ineffective spell and instead casting a combat ender the next round. Why waste 2 spells when you have the PERFECT spell that will just completely end combat?
2)
The wizard can use his bonded item to get one of them at will.
Yes he can do it... once.. PER DAY. Oh and guess what? So can the arcanist. With bloodline development you can grab Arcane's level 1 ability, giving you a bonded item... or a familiar. Oh and I love when it is convienient the wizard has a bonded item... because, last I checked, most wizards tend to prefer the HUGE bonuses of having a wand monkey (Improved Familiar Imp) than a bonded item... Actually all but 2 wizards I have seen in play had familiars... Oh and since people like going all "Herp A Derp Sunder your spellbook!!!! HA!" Then I guess teh wizard now has to worry about "Sunder your staff!!!!" seeing as losing your bonded item makes it so you cant cast at all...
3)
I don't usually do this but you're wrong. The difference between level 2 and level 1 spells is huge, the level 2 and 3 spells equally huge.
You have less magic which translates to fewer long duration buffs and fewer won encounters.
Again not quite correct. It is not +1 spell level. It is that the wizard gets spells a level earlier. But that is it. The arcanists spells are just are long durationed and actually more potent (increasing DC or CL by 2 is kinda good... especially since it stacks with Arcane's Arcana AND spell focus...)
But thats the thing, Arcanists are not easy to pin down. They can bounce around all over the place with ease, so the whole "sunder your spellbook" thing is nothing more than a odd niche scenerio done that requires a dimensional lock, crampped quarters, and the rest of your party to be twiddling there thumbs in the distance (i mean, where the hell is the rest of your party during this???). Honestly, spellbook sundering is not nearly as common or likely as many people seem to make it out to be "as soon as you use that exploit your spellbook is gonna get sundered!!!!"If he is trying to use that exploit without gloves of storing the enemy will have time to get to him. Of course he could quicken DD away, or get shift(from the wizard subschool) instead of dimensional slide. Use the book exploit, and then come back into the fight with another shift on the following round.Honestly, I find it funny how everyone is like "Well what happens when your spellbook gets sundered???? HA! NOT SO TOUGH NOW MR. MAGIC MAN!!!!"
Answer me this question...
WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR ARCANIST DOING IN MELEE??? I can tell you right now that I can count on one hand the times I have been caught in melee for longer than 1 round. And with the Dimensional Slide trick, it is even harder to try and keep the Arcanist in melee....
I never said it would be easy especially at higher levels where they might be invisible or using mirror image. I also don't think it(spellbook destroying) is common. In the case of bringing it out in combat the player is not likely to do so unless he really needs to, and he will likely have a something such as gloves of storing or some other plan to mitigate the risk. On the other hand,it might not even be a sunder. It all depends on the table, but I really don't see changing out one spell to be a game changer. Most people that know the game well don't normally get stuck with no useless spells, and no this is not Schrodinger's anything. It is just my experience that you won't often need the perfect spell for a situation. If they rarely bring the wrong spells this won't be needed often. If they do often needed then they probably have quiet a few spells that are not really useful, so this ability may not be able to save them.
Id just like to say that people are taking Quick Study very lightly which is probably because they dont have good party scouts.
A quick reallocation of power cannot be utilized as effectively if you lack a good scout. The difference of a round vs a minute is huge and in part based on party buffs.
For example, the bard returns from his scouting run and informs you of what enemies are ahead. In this incredibly common scenario, an arcanist has way more power than a wizard through finesse due to not draining the buff time longer.
Ultimately Im more worried about the Exploiter Wizard with Quick Study.
This may be a difference in play style but my current group does not cast min/level buffs outside of combat. They will cast 10 min and hour/level buffs. I thought that is how most groups were. I am assuming those who just say the wizard's ability to get a spell in 1 minutes is just as good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I never said it would be easy especially at higher levels where they might be invisible or using mirror image. I also don't think it(spellbook destroying) is common. In the case of bringing it out in combat the player is not likely to do so unless he really needs to, and he will likely have a something such as gloves of storing or some other plan to mitigate the risk. On the other hand,it might not even be a sunder. It all depends on the table, but I really don't see changing out one spell to be a game changer. Most people that know the game well don't normally get stuck with no useless spells, and no this is not...But thats the thing, Arcanists are not easy to pin down. They can bounce around all over the place with ease, so the whole "sunder your spellbook" thing is nothing more than a odd niche scenerio done that requires a dimensional lock, crampped quarters, and the rest of your party to be twiddling there thumbs in the distance (i mean, where the hell is the rest of your party during this???). Honestly, spellbook sundering is not nearly as common or likely as many people seem to make it out to be "as soon as you use that exploit your spellbook is gonna get sundered!!!!"If he is trying to use that exploit without gloves of storing the enemy will have time to get to him. Of course he could quicken DD away, or get shift(from the wizard subschool) instead of dimensional slide. Use the book exploit, and then come back into the fight with another shift on the following round.Honestly, I find it funny how everyone is like "Well what happens when your spellbook gets sundered???? HA! NOT SO TOUGH NOW MR. MAGIC MAN!!!!"
Answer me this question...
WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR ARCANIST DOING IN MELEE??? I can tell you right now that I can count on one hand the times I have been caught in melee for longer than 1 round. And with the Dimensional Slide trick, it is even harder to try and keep the Arcanist in melee....
True but sometimes it is actually better to burn your first round swapping spells, tehn use your second round to drop a perfect silver bullet that ends the combat right there. Yes you probably have a spell will suffice already prepared, but the ability to always have the Perfect silver bullet to completely emasculate an encounter (as long as you have the spells in your book) is a pretty nasty ability. Like for instance, I was playing through a Quick level 15 dungeon crawl yesterday. We went down a giant pool to find a door (after being jumped by a nightwave... I just happened to have Dismissal prepared and he rolled a 1... it was actually kind of funny). I then used my insistant door knocker to open the door (it was trapped... we had no rogue... so I just made a door IN the door...) well needless to say the next room got pretty full of water before I closed the door. Not completely flooded but a lot of water. Well low and behold, we had nasty Con draining swarm (forgot what it was) slowly swimming towards us. Well I just burned a point to quickly swap a spell for reverse gravity... and shaped it (since it can technically be shaped since its in X number of cubes) so that it formed a column up and surrounded the cealing... the swarm was fine sized and cant fly... so they got swept up with the water to the cealing... actually kind of funny lol
It would not surprise me if the Arcanist was overpowered. Pathfinder is the Caster Edition, after all.
If a player is smart, he will never pay more than 6,500gp for a copy of a spellbook.
I'd be curious to know about your "reccomended 6500 gp spellbook" ravingdork.Might be useful to know.
In any case, I dont think the arcanist is quite so bad as I originally thought. It's strong (like any other other full caster), but, same amount of castings/day as a wizard means they wont be casting any more, and they cast less than a school wizard (and possibly even less if they consume their spells).
I'll also have to agree with ross byers that you have to use runestones of power & they cant recharge the arcane pool.
They are more "flexible" mind you, but again this relies on somebody playing the class intelligently. The same goes for a wizard. I think they balanced it out nicely (or at least better that in the playtest), and that it wont cause too many problems. I think I will allow it.
Shaman worries me however... so I'll have to study it.
Though, thanks to other for pointing out sacred geometry & divine protection, those will not be allowed in my games.
Note: I would be interesting to see how the "exploiter wizard" is OP. I dont really see any arcanist exploits that synergize too well, but I may be blind. If somebody had a specific case (rather than generalities) I would be interested in seeing it.
Even AM Barbarian is no match for Limited Wish -> Geas/Quest. As a swift action. Real casters use no save, just dies. And its not like AM Barbarian can beat a casters initiative. And at low levels there is very little difference between classes. A martial isn't capable of all day fighting any more then the casters are and unlike the martials who can take out one guy a round, casters have the option to out an entire encounter (or at least more then 1 person) in a single round. Really the "casters are weaker than martials at low levels" is a common mistake.
Even AM Barbarian is no match for Limited Wish -> Geas/Quest. As a swift action. Real casters use no save, just dies. And its not like AM Barbarian can beat a casters initiative. And at low levels there is very little difference between classes. A martial isn't capable of all day fighting any more then the casters are and unlike the martials who can take out one guy a round, casters have the option to out an entire encounter (or at least more then 1 person) in a single round. Really the "casters are weaker than martials at low levels" is a common mistake.GEAS/QUEST
School enchantment (compulsion) [language-dependent, mind-affecting]
IF YOU THINK BARBARIAN AM SWAYED BY PUNY MIND EFFECTING SPELLS YOU AM THINKY TYPE. AM BARBARIAN DON'T LIKE THINKY TYPE.
Also you cannot perceive AM BARBARIAN. He can see you from hundreds of feet away while you're invisible. If he ever finds a casty type he charges from a very long distance with enough RAGELANCEPOUNCE to kill cthulu in one hit. He's immune to most of the save-no spells thanks to carefully purchased magic items.
It's really hard to get immunity to mind-affecting in Pathfinder. Which is one of the reasons I like Lunar Oracle 20 so much. And AM Barbarian is unlikely to have a higher stealth or perception then the caster...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If a player is smart, he will never pay more than 6,500gp for a copy of a spellbook.I'd be curious to know about your "recommended 6,500gp spellbook" Ravingdork. Might be useful to know.
I was mistaken; it's actually 6,250gp. You use Craft Wondrous Items to make yourself a blessed book, which in turn allows you to scribe all of your spells into it FOR FREE.
Two such books is enough to hold every core wizard spell in the game and then some. Most wizards don't get to 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells though, so you'll likely only need one to hold all your spells.You can download my Spellbook Cost Calculator, one of the many great tools in my Crazy Character Gallery, and fiddle with the numbers yourself.
For example, I can tell you with absolute certainty that knowing every single 6th-level and lower core wizard spell in the game takes up 987 pages and will cost you 19,150gp in viewing costs (assuming 18 Intelligence at 1st-level and you already know free spells equivalent to a 12th-level wizard). Tack on another 12,500gp and you've only spent 32,050gp (~1/4 your starting funds at 12th) to know all the core spells you can cast AND have a backup book of all of said spells.
6750 if you count the cost of a Bookplate of Recall.
Yes, the bookplate of recall is definitely a worthwhile investment. Hide your book in a tree, or bury it after preparing your spells, and call it only when you need it the next day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone just ran an Arcanist in a one-shot I was running. The limited slots is a real balancing factor. The exploits are strong, but the character nearly died or was shut down in 3 out of my 4 serious encounters (all technically CR 12-13 against a level 12 20-point buy party of 4). Probably not the most optimizing player, but this class isn't automatically Roflstompnewblords like some people are making out to be.
The only thing I have even a slight concern about is the Arcanist with the Occultist archtype. Being able to trade a 1st level spell slot for a Summon Monster spell of the appropriate level basically makes them the strongest summoner in the game and gives them a near endless array of useful things to do.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that's a bad thing, since I've never seen just summon monster destroy encounters. My biggest concern would be the use of it to (very) cheaply fund things like healing, buffing, and so forth from summoned creatures.
The only thing I have even a slight concern about is the Arcanist with the Occultist archtype. Being able to trade a 1st level spell slot for a Summon Monster spell of the appropriate level basically makes them the strongest summoner in the game and gives them a near endless array of useful things to do.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that's a bad thing, since I've never seen just summon monster destroy encounters. My biggest concern would be the use of it to (very) cheaply fund things like healing, buffing, and so forth from summoned creatures.
Did you note the additional cost? You get Summon Monster IX at 17th level. It costs 9 points to use. At that level, you have 11 per day. You can't even use it more than once without consuming magic items or spells.
Mind, the capstone lets you use it free, so you can summon a caster and then dismiss it and then summon another.
The only thing I have even a slight concern about is the Arcanist with the Occultist archtype. Being able to trade a 1st level spell slot for a Summon Monster spell of the appropriate level basically makes them the strongest summoner in the game and gives them a near endless array of useful things to do.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that's a bad thing, since I've never seen just summon monster destroy encounters. My biggest concern would be the use of it to (very) cheaply fund things like healing, buffing, and so forth from summoned creatures.
Did you note the additional cost? You get Summon Monster IX at 17th level. It costs 9 points to use. At that level, you have 11 per day. You can't even use it more than once without consuming magic items or spells.
Mind, the capstone lets you use it free, so you can summon a caster and then dismiss it and then summon another.
You know, I actually missed that. Makes the archtype still pretty good, but not quite as amazing - which is a good thing.
Not super worried about the capstone - there are much crazier things in play at 20th level (besides which, a character built from 1-20 isn't built to abuse it in the way that a hypothetical 20th level character drawn from whole cloth might be).
Would it be reliable to summon spellcasting monsters and have them willingly fail checks against your different methods of restoring your Reservoir?
I think it would depend on the effect, but that is a loophole I would expect most GM's to not allow. Not everything that is rules legal is actually intended to happen.
Is that really a loophole? I mean using Summoned Monsters for stuff like that is already a thing, so really shouldn't that be one of your first thoughts? If that really wasn't intended it might be easier for things to be written with intent explicitly stated.
The class literally has abilities called exploits.
Stuff like this is probably intentional.
The Arcanist is very powerful simply by dint of having 9th level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. The Wizard definitely has the higher optimization ceiling. But the Arcanist is much more forgiving for the non-expert player than either the Sorcerer or the Wizard, and that's probably what makes it seem overpowered.
- The spell system is more forgiving than either the Sorcerer or Wizard, even before you factor in Quick Study. Consume Spells is a simple way to keep your low-level spell slots relevant. The delayed progression is the only downside, albeit a significant one. I think everyone knows what I mean without having to explain this further.
- Experienced players can use teamwork, good positioning, and more creative methods to keep their casters out of melee. Dimensional Slide makes it trivial to escape from melee as part of a Move Action and then cast a Standard Action spell in the same turn. No attacks of opportunity, no concentration checks, available right from level 1. Not only is this a giant middle finger to Disruptive/Spellbreaker, it is absolutely baffling to me that this was given to the Arcanist (and therefore the Exploiter Wizard) of all classes. It would make more sense on the Magus or Bloodrager. It is actually needed on the Rogue and other "Light Melee"; compare this thing to Spring Attack or Acrobatics and you'll get the point right away.
- The Counterspell exploits (especially Greater Counterspell) make combat with enemy spellcasters much more forgiving. Counterspell was never really viable because of the onerous restrictions on it, and so the preferred strategy for dealing with enemy casters was to beat their initiative. With Greater Counterspell, unless you're up against a higher-level caster (or a Wizard/Cleric/Etc. of your same level using the highest level spell available) you can always attempt a Counterspell as an Immediate Action. Even the Counterspell Wizard's school power is quite inferior to this. Fortunately, the Exploiter Wizard doesn't get access to Greater Exploits.
|
Personally, I will be houseruling the slide that it still provokes unless used as part of a withdraw option. I know of a player who wasn't just sliding to get out of melee issues, but popping in right where he could do more damage with cone spells and the such. Even with my houserule, this skill is still plenty powerful for that reason alone. You can pop into exact position (in range) and fire off your spell...much easier than running into position while worrying about tripping AoOs.