I read somewhere (can't remember so take it for what you will) that the owner wouldn't confirm it was Brown in the videoOh come on. The owner doesn't want to get any flack from this. Thats his primary motivation. I can't find anything to substantiate the idea that it wasn't Brown or that it wasn't the same day. If you can link me in.
I do like that Brown wasn't charged or convicted with stealing the cigars but it's fine to call him a thief: but, the police officer, who admits to shooting the kid, is given the benefit of the doubt.Take a look up thread. I've hardly been supportive of the cop.
Its entirely possible that the theft makes this more of a muddy area than something as crystal clear as completely innocent person gunned down. I'm ok with that. But if you need to change the facts to fit your conclusions you're just making your own argument look bad.Of course he wasn't charged with the theft. Kind of a moot point. Do we even have provisions for charging the dead with a crime? You're trying to substitute He wasn't charged with for he didn't do it, and thats not genuine.
Yeah I deleted my comment because I couldn't find whatever article it was I read. You're certainly free to speculate about the store owner's motives.
As to my second comment, it was merely pointing out that people demanding "innocent until proven guilty" for the police officer, never seem to apply it to the dead kid.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be a little less glib, you say the protesters are terrorists and decry their actions. While supporting the actuall terrorist group who has not only threatened violence but have repeatedly proven their willingness to use it. Do you see why you're wrong?
Irontruth, those arguments are poor. They're not good enough to even refute the idea that he stole something, much less so good that the only possible method to reach the conclusion he stole something is racism.
KKK Missouri Chapter Threatens Ferguson Protesters with ‘Lethal Force’
Includes a copy of the leaflet the Klan was distributing.
I am going to bump this with the hope that Fergurg will click on the link and read the Klan leaflet.
Not because I think it will change his mind or anything like that, but because he keeps inaccurately paraphrasing the leaflet, sometimes with quotation marks around phrases that don't appear anywhere on it, and it's annoying.
I am also going to quote this section--
"The Traditionalist American Knights, who claimed that they were getting involved in the Ferguson protests in response to aggression on the part of protesters, specifically singled out Bassem Masri, a local activist and live streamer.
"Masri told VICE News that statements he made in October after the killing of Vonderrit Myers by an off-duty cop were misunderstood. As Masri was live-streaming a protest, he was heard saying to a police officer, 'Your life is in danger, homie,' asking him, 'What happens when we take your gun?'"--
so that I can remember to look tomorrow for more evidence of protesters threatening violence if they don't get their way. Can't wait to read more about Zulu Gaddafi.
Irontruth, those arguments are poor. They're not good enough to even refute the idea that he stole something, much less so good that the only possible method to reach the conclusion he stole something is racism.
As I've said multiple times in this thread, I don't get the WCC newsletter, so I haven't really followed this part of the story, but a cursory google revealed this interesting article from back in August from a website that publishes articles by anonymous authors and probably doesn't even have a masthead:
Ferguson Cops Busted? New Video Seems To Show Brown Paying For Cigarillos
Don't know if it's been debunked or what, or if there's a better article, but it was one of the first ones that came up under a seach for "Michael Brown Cigars" and I submit it for the thread's delectation.
Irontruth, those arguments are poor. They're not good enough to even refute the idea that he stole something, much less so good that the only possible method to reach the conclusion he stole something is racism.
If he stole the cigars, why did he put packages of cigars back on the counter? Why wouldn't he just take whatever he had in hand?
Give me a reasonable theft explanation that covers that.
Irontruth, those arguments are poor. They're not good enough to even refute the idea that he stole something, much less so good that the only possible method to reach the conclusion he stole something is racism.
If he stole the cigars, why did he put packages of cigars back on the counter? Why wouldn't he just take whatever he had in hand?
Give me a reasonable theft explanation that covers that.
Five bucks gets me 4
Two! You only two!
Four!
Two!
Takes 4 leaves money.
Its probably irrelevant to the shooting. When white girl on cell phone called it in , and then talked to dispatch, and then dispatch went on the radio it probably sounded like a robbery on the other end. The question is if that happened fast enough to put the cop in "stopping a robber mode" rather than "harassing a jaywalker" mode.
Irontruth, those arguments are poor. They're not good enough to even refute the idea that he stole something, much less so good that the only possible method to reach the conclusion he stole something is racism.
If he stole the cigars, why did he put packages of cigars back on the counter? Why wouldn't he just take whatever he had in hand?
Give me a reasonable theft explanation that covers that.
Five bucks gets me 4
Two! You only two!
Four!
Two!
Takes 4 leaves money.
Its probably irrelevant to the shooting. When white girl on cell phone called it in , and then talked to dispatch, and then dispatch went on the radio it probably sounded like a robbery on the other end. The question is if that happened fast enough to put the cop in "stopping a robber mode" rather than "harassing a jaywalker" mode.
That's an explanation of why he might have given some money. It doesn't explain why he put some back and didn't take everything he wanted.
Here's another interesting thing to consider:
How many convenience stores do you know that have a camera pointed at the register from behind the counter?
Pretty much every store I have ever been to. Why haven't we been shown that footage? It would clearly show whether or not Mr. Brown handed over any cash. The camera angle we're shown of the counter makes it really hard to see the register. I highly doubt that's the only one pointed at the register though, particularly since we haven't been shown cameras 1, 2, 4 and 5 (there are at least 7 camera's at the store, since a camera 7 is listed in the police report).
In the report of the incident, it's listed as a robbery, but no quantity of goods is actually reported stolen. It says he has a box of cigars in hand, but it doesn't actually say whether or not they're paid for. The officer who wrote it makes sure to say which hand he is carrying them in, but doesn't actually say if they're stolen.
The report reads like the officer watched the video and that's it. He lists it as a robbery, but there's no documentation of witness reports, say from the store clerk. How does the officer KNOW it's a robbery without a report of a robbery?
How many convenience stores do you know that have a camera pointed at the register from behind the counter?
Pretty much every store I have ever been to
In the report of the incident, it's listed as a robbery, but no quantity of goods is actually reported stolen.
So they had a camera in a different spot than you think it should go and the report... didn't need to state the obvious. This is nitpicking of every day events and random details. Its not nearly enough to call someone racist for looking at a security tape that looks very much like a robbery and concluding that there was a very petty robbery.
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Less than a week after Brown's death, Ferguson police were quick to release a video implicating him in an alleged robbery at a local store shortly before he was killed. They later acknowledged that Wilson was unaware of the incident when he killed Brown, and admitted that the episodes were unrelated.
...
Asked about the awkward timing and the lack of connections between the alleged robbery and shooting, Chief Jackson said that Ferguson police released the video because of media requests to do so — despite the fact that his department was at the same time ignoring plenty of other media requests."Because you asked for it," he answered when asked by a reporter at an August 15 press conference why his department chose to release the video when it did. "We got a lot of Freedom of Information requests for this tape, and at some point it was just determined we had to release it."
In fact, an investigation by TheBlot Magazine later found that there were no such requests for the tape. Only one local journalist had asked broadly for any multimedia evidence "leading up to" Brown's death. City officials subsequently said that the requests "were made verbally."
Bolding added by Fergie.
The whole convenience store thing is nothing but a distraction that has zero relevance to the shooting or protests. I would even go so far as to say that the shooting is only a single incident, and that the people are (rightfully) upset at a well established pattern of police harassment and misconduct, that no one should be asked to tolerate.
Ahh thank you fergie. That makes it a lot less likely to be relevant.
The real issue about the death of Mike Browne is that the prosecutor is preventing the case from going to trial. When the grand jury fails to indict Wilson, they just need to get a real prosecutor in there and it should take about 15 minutes.
Until that happens, I really can't ask that the people of Ferguson to tolerate their current system. Even if Wilson is indicted, I still think HUGE changes need to be made to the police departments, and that lots of police and politicians need to be s#*$-canned.
No justice, no peace!
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You could replace every single protester in the city with an armed, cranky lunatic on drugs, and I suspect that it would STILL make things worse if you then sent a gang of Klansmen in to restore order.
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You could replace every single protester in the city with an armed, cranky lunatic on drugs, and I suspect that it would STILL make things worse if you then sent a gang of Klansmen in to restore order.
armed, cranky lunatic on drugs
KlansmenPolice
I suspect there is a fair amount of overlap among those three groups.
It's possible that after not indicting Wilson, they'll release the evidence presented to the grand jury and we'll see some clear indication that there he shouldn't even be tried
I don't think that such an indication is possible at this point, comming from that department the more innocent it makes them look the more it looks like a cover up.
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So they had a camera in a different spot than you think it should go and the report... didn't need to state the obvious. This is nitpicking of every day events and random details. Its not nearly enough to call someone racist for looking at a security tape that looks very much like a robbery and concluding that there was a very petty robbery.How many convenience stores do you know that have a camera pointed at the register from behind the counter?
Pretty much every store I have ever been to
In the report of the incident, it's listed as a robbery, but no quantity of goods is actually reported stolen.
You did the exact same nitpicking claiming that sometimes stores don't report thefts.
I'm willing to bet $100 that there's a camera pointed at that register. Seriously.
Of course, the video is in the possession of the police. If the video shows Mr. Brown not giving money, it would actually strengthen their claim that he robbed the store. On the other hand, if it shows money changing hands it would be in their interest to not show the video.
Again, all of this is still irrelevant to the shooting. Wilson didn't know any of this had taken place. At the time from Officer Wilson's perspective, Mr. Brown was just a jaywalker.
Bringing up Mr. Browns "thuggish" behavior is purely an attempt to paint him as some sort of 'criminal element' who deserved to be shot and therefore justify his shooting. To imply that Brown deserved to be shot for having stolen $5 of cigars stinks of racism.
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If you think murder is an appropriate response to theft then you are already a bad person.
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Just a quick note to everyone:
Please, please don't get this thread closed. When in doubt, wait before you post.
I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. Florida and Oklahoma, at least, also have stand your ground laws, which include the right to defend your property, rather it be $5 or $5 million.1) If someone steals $5 worth of ANYTHING from me, I would be hard pressed to not justify getting it back and being intentionally unconcerned with the well-being of the thief.Here's a simple justification - it's against the law to shoot someone for stealing five dollars.
(Except in Texas, but hey, Ferguson isn't there).
My understanding was that the stand your ground laws dealt with defending against (perceived) imminent harm or death or defending your home, but not, for example, with someone who steals a bill out of the tip jar and runs.
(as an aside, I deleted the original post because I decided it would lead off topic, but hey, too late, I guess).
I believe it is property in general, rather house, car, or the contents of your wallet. I don't know if there is a law like that in ferguson, but I do want the information in the thread.to be accurate.
After looking into it further, not for $5, unless you're in Texas or unless the thief is going to kill you for the $5.
There was a bit in the Vice piece about the Klan that made me reminisce.
"Masri called the KKK's own threat of force 'cowardly.'
"'If they want to perpetuate hate, we can't stop them, but we can surely let them know we ain't going for it,' he said. 'They are using the KKK to change the narrative to something they want, which is a race war which we are not advocating for, taking the story off [Missouri Governor Jay] Nixon, [St. Louis Country prosecutor Bob] McCulluch, and Darren Wilson.'"
It reminded me of a film I saw a whiles back, I think it was Citizen RV that mentioned it, Occupy Unmasked, a Breitbart film that "exposed" the seedy underbelly of Occupy. And one of the things that I remember, and I remember posting about it back in the day, but I'm not gonna go look for it, was that they were saying the reason you didn't see many black people at Occupy was that They (I don't remember who, Soros and ACORN or somebody) were holding them (i.e., black people) in reserve for Occupy Part Two: Race War.
And then I look at all of the posts of the WCC half of this thread and all of the wonderful websites they link and it makes me go hmmmmm.
Anyway, a couple of fun race riot wikipedia pages:
Article my homepage spat at me:
Groups in Ferguson Prepare for Grand Jury Decision
Anyway, I couldn't find much about the awesomely-named Zulu Gaddafi, but Mr. Comrade tells me that RbG Black Rebels is the organization that dead prez are (were?) associated with. I didn't verify it, though.
Anyway, I couldn't find much about the awesomely-named Zulu Gaddafi,
You know, back in the good old days, guys had to be forced to bear this kind of name.
You did the exact same nitpicking claiming that sometimes stores don't report thefts.
Absolutely not. You advocated the lack of a report of theft as evidence that there was no theft.
I'm willing to bet $100 that there's a camera pointed at that register. Seriously.
What you believe is poor evidence for what you believe.
Of course, the video is in the possession of the police. If the video shows Mr. Brown not giving money, it would actually strengthen their claim that he robbed the store. On the other hand, if it shows money changing hands it would be in their interest to not show the video.
You're alleging that a video exists of a camera you allege exists and that allegation is enough to say that everyone that disagrees with you is wrong...
No. No one can trust your judgement at all if you're going to do things THAT badly.
Bringing up Mr. Browns "thuggish" behavior is purely an attempt to paint him as some sort of 'criminal element' who deserved to be shot and therefore justify his shooting.
Two things,
As false as it seems to be, shooting a guy i thought had just robbed a store works a lot better than "I shot someone fow not respecting my authoritai"
Also, shooting someone that had just robbed a store is, in most peoples heads, the same thing.
To imply that Brown deserved to be shot for having stolen $5 of cigars stinks of racism.
Which I'm very much not doing. But if he's on video stealing 5 dollars then arguing that he isn't plays into the argument that he deserved to be shot for it. If someone has a bad argument with a premise based in reality their argument is going to sound better than someone with a good argument based on the denial of reality.