GMing on Aug 14th - how do I handle faction changes?

[keerawa]

I'm GMing Merchant's Wake on August 14th, and I just realized that is the first day of season 6. I've read the new Season 6 Organized Play Guide, so I know people can all switch once for free, keeping all traits but losing faction-specific vanities, but I'm confused about how to run it as a GM.

Do I need to offer people the option for their free faction change, and then sign off on it? Can they (especially if this is the first they've heard of it) wait, and tell the GM next time they play?

What about the people in factions that are changing/disappearing? I suppose that's everyone who's not playing Grand Lodge or Silver Crusade. Are they REQUIRED to make a choice on the 14th?

And what about the Qadiran boon on the Chronicle sheet. Does it apply to old Qadirans, new Exchange members, both, or neither?

[thaX]

I would like to know this also.

[GM Lamplighter]

I'm also running on Thursday. No existing faction is orphaned; they mostly just change names, and two merge into one.

I *think* the correct process is:
- Grand Lodge and Silver Crusade stay as-is
- everyone else changes faction names automatically
- Qadira and Szcarni both become "The Exchange"

This happens automatically. If players want to make their free faction change, they can, either then, or later. I am going to recommend later.

[Brian Lefebvre]

The first time any character is played during season 6 they get a single chance to change to a different faction for free. The option is open to all characters even if their old faction wasn't altered.

A character must be a member of a legal season 6 faction before the game begins.

If a member of the Grand Lodge or Silver Crusade plays a game in season 6, and does not use the free faction change before their first game. They will have to follow the normal rules for changing factions outlined in the Guide.

[Mat Black]

Sorry, Brian, that isn't quite accurate.

Per the wording in the Guide, the free faction change can be taken at any point during Season Six. It does not have to be taken the first time a character is played during Season Six.

If a character is a member of one of the factions affected by the changes, they remain in the updated version of that faction until and unless they decide to use the free faction change.

[sarokcat]

At anytime thereafter, before the faction is removed
as a legal choice from the campaign, that character may
change to a different faction one time at no cost. Any
faction-specific vanities, titles, traits, prestige items, or
other purchases made while the character was a member
of the retired faction are retained by that character with
no changes

This is actually the wording from the guide at the bottom of page 17, factions. I took that to mean that all faction specific purchases Are still valid Keerawa. And as I understand it due to the wording in that section, since the old factions are No longer legal choices, they must reassign their faction at the BEGINNING of the next session that character plays at no cost.

However the guide also states-
Liberty’s Edge faction PCs qualify for Andoran faction
vanities and mission boons available in past seasons.
Likewise, Dark Archive faction PCs qualify for Cheliax
rewards, Scarab Sages as Osirion, The Exchange as
Qadira, and Sovereign Court as Taldor. Without a boon
that states otherwise, a PC cannot earn Sczarni vanities
or boons.

That reads to me pretty clearly they can also purchase their progenitors vanities even faction specific ones. So apparently Scarab Sages Can purchase the Risen guard boon if I am reading the guide correctly. It also means all the old mission boons Can still be earned, except for Scarzni.

If I am reading the guide wrong please let me know as I am running a game this Saturday as well and would like to know.

[Mat Black]

The first text you quoted is in regards to retiring factions. There are no retiring factions in Season Six, so that text does not in any way apply.

Below is a point by point list of how the Season Six faction change works, to the best of my understanding of the wording in the updated Guide. I posted this in another thread, but I will repost it here, for reference.

- No factions are being retired during Season Six. While there are changes to many, and a merger of two of them, none are actually being retired. This is not a matter of semantics, as faction retirement in the campaign is a very specific thing, and none of those things pertain to any of the affected factions. Thus, none of the information about faction retirement included in the Guide to Organized Play pertains in any way to the Season Six faction changes.

- All characters receive one free faction change that they can utilize at any point during Season Six (from 08/14/14 until the day before the beginning of next year's GenCon). If you are happy with your faction, you are not required to utilize the free change. If you want to change your faction more than once during Season Six, you will need to follow the rules outlined in the Guide to Organized Play for doing so.

- If you are in one of the factions affected by the Season Six changes, you are automatically considered to be a member of the new version of that faction, until and unless you use the available free faction change. For reference, the affected factions and their new version are:

Andoran changes to Liberty's Edge
Cheliax changes to The Dark Archive
Osirion changes to The Scarab Sages
Qadira changes to The Exchange
Sczarni changes to The Exchange
Taldor changes to The Sovereign Court
Grand Lodge and Silver Crusade factions remain unchanged.

- Any faction traits that your character possesses remain unaffected by the new directions of the old factions or by changing your faction entirely. If you are able to choose additional traits and do not already have a faction trait, you can only choose faction traits from the updated list included in Version 6 of the Guide to Organized Play.

- Any generic Prestige Awards or Vanities that you have previously purchased are not affected by the new factions or by changing your faction.

- Any faction-specific Prestige Awards or Vanities that you have previously purchased are retained as long as you remain in the new version of the faction. For example, if you had purchased the Trade Prince/ss Vanity available to the Qadira faction, you may retain the use of that Vanity for as long as you remain a member of The Exchange. If you change to a different faction, you lose access to all previously purchased faction-specific Prestige Awards and Vanities, and do not receive any recompense for their cost.

- When playing Season Five scenarios, you qualify to receive faction-specific boons (providing you complete the faction mission) for the equivalent of your current faction. Dark Archive characters can earn Cheliax boons, Exchange characters can earn Qadira boons, etc. The only exception to this are Sczarni faction boons, which are not currently available to be earned, unless you possess a boon that specifically allows you to do so. (Incidentally, there may be a boon that allows you to qualify for Sczarni faction boons for Season Five scenarios. ) For GMs who choose to include faction missions for scenarios from Seasons Zero through Four, the equivalencies stay the same for the updated factions, and still work out as laid out in previous seasons, adjusted for the updated factions (Dark Archive = Cheliax, Exchange = Qadira, Grand Lodge = Osirion or Grand Lodge, Liberty's Edge = Andoran, Scarab Sages = Osirion, Silver Crusade = Andoran or Silver Crusade, Sovereign Court = Taldor).

- Any faction boons previously earned from Season Five scenarios are retained, unless they would fall under the category of Prestige Awards or Vanities, as noted above.

[sarokcat]

Thank you for the point by point list, I actually plan to print that out and bring it with me for player information now since I know they had similar questions.

[SCPRedMage]

Matthew Starch wrote:

- Any faction-specific Prestige Awards or Vanities that you have previously purchased are retained as long as you remain in the new version of the faction. For example, if you had purchased the Trade Prince/ss Vanity available to the Qadira faction, you may retain the use of that Vanity for as long as you remain a member of The Exchange. If you change to a different faction, you lose access to all previously purchased faction-specific Prestige Awards and Vanities, and do not receive any recompense for their cost.

This directly contradicts how previous "free" faction changes have been handled.

Further, here is the full text of the relevant rules:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play v6.0, pg 17 wrote:

Changing Your Faction

With the change of most factions from nation-based to ideal-based at the start of Season 6, every character is allowed one free faction change anytime during Season 6. After the one free faction change, if at any point you become disillusioned with your faction, you can change to a different one. The longer you have spent in service to a faction, the higher the relative cost to change to one that hasn’t seen firsthand your ability to forward their goals. Changing your faction costs a number of Prestige Points equal to 3 times your character level, but does not alter your Fame score. (Prestige Points and Fame are fully explained in Chapter 5). You retain your faction traits, if any, but lose any faction-specific Prestige Awards you have accumulated during your time with your old faction; generic Prestige Awards from Table 5–4 and Vanities (Pathfinder Society Field Guide 60) are unaffected.

Note that after the first sentence, the paragraph transitions over to talking about the non-free faction changes. Keep in mind that the same reading that would apply the "lose your faction Prestige Awards" to the free changes would ALSO apply the PP cost.

Basically, once it starts talking about the non-free changes, none of what it states applies to the free change.

[sarokcat]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Matthew Starch wrote:

- Any faction-specific Prestige Awards or Vanities that you have previously purchased are retained as long as you remain in the new version of the faction. For example, if you had purchased the Trade Prince/ss Vanity available to the Qadira faction, you may retain the use of that Vanity for as long as you remain a member of The Exchange. If you change to a different faction, you lose access to all previously purchased faction-specific Prestige Awards and Vanities, and do not receive any recompense for their cost.

This directly contradicts how previous "free" faction changes have been handled.

Further, here is the full text of the relevant rules:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play v6.0, pg 17 wrote:

Changing Your Faction

With the change of most factions from nation-based to ideal-based at the start of Season 6, every character is allowed one free faction change anytime during Season 6. After the one free faction change, if at any point you become disillusioned with your faction, you can change to a different one. The longer you have spent in service to a faction, the higher the relative cost to change to one that hasn’t seen firsthand your ability to forward their goals. Changing your faction costs a number of Prestige Points equal to 3 times your character level, but does not alter your Fame score. (Prestige Points and Fame are fully explained in Chapter 5). You retain your faction traits, if any, but lose any faction-specific Prestige Awards you have accumulated during your time with your old faction; generic Prestige Awards from Table 5–4 and Vanities (Pathfinder Society Field Guide 60) are unaffected.

Note that after the first sentence, the paragraph transitions over to talking about the non-free faction changes. Keep in mind that the same reading that would apply the "lose your faction Prestige Awards" to the free changes would ALSO apply the PP cost.

Basically, once it starts talking about the non-free changes,...

This now has ReConfused me (and I keep rolling high on my confusion check much to my dismay...) So does that mean faction specific things stay or go... for example I talked to someone today who wanted to leave the exchange now that they have the new flavor... but who was going to stay in it because otherwise he would lose his sczarni faction only prestige vanity. But who would leave in a shot to become Dark archive if he could. (black market dealer in tomes and artifacts style character)

Also secondary question, are Risen guardsmen, who CANNOT change faction per the very commonly purchased(out here anyways) boon, able to use this to change factions or not, since I am no longer sure myself (if it is free faction change that follows normal rules, I would say no, if it is under the portion in faction retirement where the new factions are listed, I would say yes.) But I just know that will come up at some point this season.

[GM Lamplighter]

Specific trumps general. Risen Guards can't change factions RAW (although, frankly, this should be clarified, since there is no way for a Risen Guard to "get time off" to do non-Osirion things...)

Overall, Matthew has it correct. It doesn't really matter how free faction changes have been handled in the past, since those were actual faction "retirements", and not just changes like this. No one is orphaned by these changes, although they may wish to change for personal reasons, and they can do that for free. If they change for personal reasons, they don't get to keep the faction-specific stuff, just like I wouldn't expect to still get the Pathfinder wayfinder discount if I joined the Aspis Consortium.

[BigNorseWolf]

What exactly changes and whatnot is still pretty unclear at this point. The staff are busy at gencon and should either be getting a flood of questions there , or will see everyone scratching their head on the boards, then probably take a while to see how to word it without confusing everyone even more.

I would not, at this point, make anyone commit to writing anything on the chronicle sheets.

[N N 959]

Matthew Starch wrote:

- Any faction boons previously earned from Season Five scenarios are retained, unless they would fall under the category of Prestige Awards or Vanities, as noted above.

I asked this question before. But do GM credit scenarios that don't effect until your character reaches a higher level, count as "previously earned"?

Seems they should since you still lose the credit if the character dies before reaching that level..

[SCPRedMage]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Overall, Matthew has it correct. It doesn't really matter how free faction changes have been handled in the past, since those were actual faction "retirements", and not just changes like this. No one is orphaned by these changes, although they may wish to change for personal reasons, and they can do that for free. If they change for personal reasons, they don't get to keep the faction-specific stuff, just like I wouldn't expect to still get the Pathfinder wayfinder discount if I joined the Aspis Consortium.

Can you back this up with citations, either from the Guide or from campaign leadership? As I said in my post, the part about losing faction-specific Prestige Awards is a separate sentence AFTER the paragraph begins speaking of the non-free faction changes. As it just so happens, the PP cost is a separate sentence AFTER the paragraph begins speaking of the non-free changes, so if the "lose Prestige Awards" part applies, then the "costs PP" part must, as well.

You can't arbitrarily decide which sentences apply to the free changes and which do not; there must be a logical reason the sentence about Prestige Awards would apply to the free changes when the sentence preceding it doesn't. Since neither sentence declares which kind of faction change they apply to, then they have to be applied the same way.

My interpretation has been that the part that reads "After the one free faction change" indicates a complete change of focus for the paragraph, indicating that nothing from that point on applies to the free faction change, because that's the only valid interpretation I can find that renders the free faction change different from the non-free ones.

As to Risen Guard, even staying with the Scarab Sages would break the fluff of the faction change restriction, because you're no longer serving the Ruby Prince, at that point. Personally, I'd deem the free faction change as the "specific", in this case, and allow it to trump the more general rules of the various Prestige Awards that faction-lock the character.

[SCPRedMage]

N N 959 wrote:

I asked this question before. But do GM credit scenarios that don't effect until your character reaches a higher level, count as "previously earned"?

Seems they should since you still lose the credit if the character dies before reaching that level..

I would say less "previously earned" and more "not earned yet", as the chronicle is held and NOT applied at this point, thus the character couldn't have purchased anything on that chronicle yet.

Basically, that held chronicle doesn't yet have a fixed amount of GP and PP available to use, as that can change prior to it being applied. For example, if you wanted to purchase a Prestige Award that costs 5 PP, even if you had the PP needed when you ran the scenario, you could very well end up blowing all your PP on a raise dead right before you'd apply it, leaving you without the PP needed to buy that Prestige Award.

TL;DNR version: you can't buy items or Prestige Awards with Schrodinger's Currency until you collapse the wave function.

[N N 959]

SCPRedMage wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

I asked this question before. But do GM credit scenarios that don't effect until your character reaches a higher level, count as "previously earned"?

Seems they should since you still lose the credit if the character dies before reaching that level..

I would say less "previously earned" and more "not earned yet", as the chronicle is held and NOT applied at this point, thus the character couldn't have purchased anything on that chronicle yet.

If I can't apply it to another character, then I would certainly argue that it is "applied." It just doesn't have a material effect at on character's abilities.

There's a difference between the chronicle being applied to the character and the character being eligible for the benefits.

[SCPRedMage]

N N 959 wrote:

If I can't apply it to another character, then I would certainly argue that it is "applied."

The Guide would disagree with you on that.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play v6.0, pg 38 wrote:

If the GM with a low-level character runs any higher tier scenarios that don’t include a subtier for her 1st-level rogue, she takes the lowest subtier Chronicle sheet from that scenario and holds it for her PC. Then, once her PC achieves the appropriate level for that Chronicle sheet, it is immediately applied.

Regardless of how we define "applied", you can't purchase something on a chronicle sheet if the amount of currency available to purchase it with is undefined, so that argument doesn't really address the actual point of my post.

So, again, you can't make purchases on a held chronicle, because you cannot buy something with prestige you may not even have by the time the chronicle gets applied (and since you don't actually get the PP earned from that held chronicle until you apply it, you don't even have THAT to purchase it with).

[N N 959]

The Chronicle is reported for my character, but I don't get to apply any of the benefits until I reach the appropriate level.

Reporting a chronicle sheet applies that chronicle to your character irrevocably, even if you don't get the benefits. If you want to tell me that I can change who the sheet applies to after I report it, then I'll agree.

You can't tell me it's applied to a character, but then tell me it's not applied to the character.

Whether I can purchase something of the sheet is irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is how PFS is going to define the assignment of GM credit.

[Bori Ironshield]

Bump.

Now that GenCon is over, has any clarification been given on how the free faction changes are supposed to work?

[sarokcat]

Agreed some clarification on this would be greatly desired both for the players and myself, since I have started looking at things. I have an Andoran who is... Very patriotic, and a captain of the eagle knights, with every Andoran specific boon he could get... because Andor! Who really doesn't like/want to abandon Andor for the new faction, and would love to go grand lodge... but you can pry his Eagle knight vanities out of his cold dead hands.... Honestly flavor wise I don't even want to play him in the new liberty faction, and I know there are others in similar boats.

And of course, perhaps the most important question... since I have ALREADY been asked this. "So I have risen guard, does this mean I can change factions now or not?"

[GM Lamplighter]

You know, when *my* company makes me work 24 hours a day through a weekend, I often get to take a few days off afterwards... I assume Paizo does the same, especially when all their staff were stranded in Indy by a cancelled plane for an extra day. So let's cut them some slack.