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I've been thinking this week about the Intimidate skill, and I'm finding it a bit confusing concerning it being based off Charisma. It's not that I don't like Charisma (most of my characters are Charisma based), but that I can and can't see this skill being tied to all ability scores. So I broke it down.
Strength - I can see someone breaking a beer mug or a chair over their leg as a means to intimidate someone (forgoing the hardness of the object for story's sake), but I have known people that aren't physically strong that are pretty intimidating.
Dexterity - Not really sure how you would use Dexterity to intimidate someone, so this is problematic.
Constitution - I can see someone using their physical build to intimidate someone, but like the Strength conundrum, I have known some people who's stature isn't intimidating, yet they are in other ways.
Intelligence - I can see how intelligence can be intimidating, but there are people who are dumber that a bag of hammers that are pretty intimidating.
Wisdom - Same as Intelligence, but there are people who aren't too wise that are intimidating.
Charisma - I can see how this ability is the one used for the skill currently, as you are forcing your personality on another individual, but the same goes for Charisma as with Wisdom and Intelligence; there are people out there that couldn't influence a dog with their personality, yet they are still intimidating in some sense.
Anybody have any thoughts on this skill? I kinda wanna know what they Pathfinder community's thoughts are on this skill.
I get tripped up by these kinds of dilemmas on a regular basis. This is a consequence of D&D being an inaccurate model for the real world, particular when compared with other game systems.
If I had a player who wanted a low charisma score and good intimidation bonus I would allow them to use one of their starting traits to base intimidation on another stat like strength or intelligence.
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Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.
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Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.
My issue with that is by those rules the Terminator would not even be remotely intimidating.
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There's a feat to let you use Strength for Intimidate. Plus, circumstance bonuses and skill ranks can make up for low stats.
Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.My issue with that is by those rules the Terminator would not even be remotely intimidating.
I don't remember any of the terminators actually intimidating anyone, hence the high body count.
I don't find it too inappropriate for the intimidate stat usually. However, it does mean a growling 3m long tiger companion with arched back looking like it is poised to pounce is likely not too intimidating even to the local onion merchant. This seems counter intuitive. I think large wild savage animals should get some kind of bonus to intimidate.
Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.My issue with that is by those rules the Terminator would not even be remotely intimidating.
Not true, the terminator has a racial bonus to intimidate and a circumstance bonus (those were scary moments).
There's also a trait that let's you use INT for intimidate.
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I think there is some confusion between the difference between something that is intimidating and something that is merely hazardous. A raging bushfire is dangerous, you don't mess with it, but it doesn't intimidate you into bending to it's will.
I think the terminator example is an interesting one because in the first movie Arnie clearly has little to no charisma and basically resorts to violence to solve every problem. By the second movie, after being reprogrammed by humans, he understands the nuances of human behaviour and he is more charismatic and he is able to negotiate, insult, intimidate etc. people.
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Frankly, I see far less problem with Intimidate being based on charisma than on Perform (Dance) being based on the same ability score -- with the implication that you do not suffer any armor check penalty for dancing in full plate.
Frankly, I see far less problem with Intimidate being based on charisma than on Perform (Dance) being based on the same ability score -- with the implication that you do not suffer any armor check penalty for dancing in full plate.
I don't know, I'll bet one could pull off a good robot in full plate. I'd like to see that lol
I think there is some confusion between the difference between something that is intimidating and something that is merely hazardous. A raging bushfire is dangerous, you don't mess with it, but it doesn't intimidate you into bending to it's will.
I think the terminator example is an interesting one because in the first movie Arnie clearly has little to no charisma and basically resorts to violence to solve every problem. By the second movie, after being reprogrammed by humans, he understands the nuances of human behaviour and he is more charismatic and he is able to negotiate, insult, intimidate etc. people.
Well, presumably the bushfire doesn't bend you to it's will. Fire elementals and all that. Still, the point is right-just because you are a being made of pure fire that could kill lesser men just by touching them, you are not any more intimidating than a similarly sized tree (ok, now I am bringing treants into this...)
Oh-and for the dancing full plate robot- apparently, inspire courage uses competence bonuses, rather than morale. That means that you could make an android/wyrwood/some random construct bard that can work perfectly well. Take arcane duelist or chelish diva and you can eventually grab heavy armor.
I've been thinking this week about the Intimidate skill, and I'm finding it a bit confusing concerning it being based off Charisma. It's not that I don't like Charisma (most of my characters are Charisma based), but that I can and can't see this skill being tied to all ability scores. So I broke it down.
Strength - I can see someone breaking a beer mug or a chair over their leg as a means to intimidate someone (forgoing the hardness of the object for story's sake), but I have known people that aren't physically strong that are pretty intimidating.
Dexterity - Not really sure how you would use Dexterity to intimidate someone, so this is problematic.
Constitution - I can see someone using their physical build to intimidate someone, but like the Strength conundrum, I have known some people who's stature isn't intimidating, yet they are in other ways.
Intelligence - I can see how intelligence can be intimidating, but there are people who are dumber that a bag of hammers that are pretty intimidating.
Wisdom - Same as Intelligence, but there are people who aren't too wise that are intimidating.
Charisma - I can see how this ability is the one used for the skill currently, as you are forcing your personality on another individual, but the same goes for Charisma as with Wisdom and Intelligence; there are people out there that couldn't influence a dog with their personality, yet they are still intimidating in some sense.
Anybody have any thoughts on this skill? I kinda wanna know what they Pathfinder community's thoughts are on this skill.
intimidate is intimidating someone without violence, if you actually break a mug over someones head, then they should be "intimidated" unless the GM is being a pedant.
intimidate is intimidating someone without violence, if you actually break a mug over someones head, then they should be "intimidated" unless the GM is being a pedant.I've been thinking this week about the Intimidate skill, and I'm finding it a bit confusing concerning it being based off Charisma. It's not that I don't like Charisma (most of my characters are Charisma based), but that I can and can't see this skill being tied to all ability scores. So I broke it down.
Strength - I can see someone breaking a beer mug or a chair over their leg as a means to intimidate someone (forgoing the hardness of the object for story's sake), but I have known people that aren't physically strong that are pretty intimidating.
Dexterity - Not really sure how you would use Dexterity to intimidate someone, so this is problematic.
Constitution - I can see someone using their physical build to intimidate someone, but like the Strength conundrum, I have known some people who's stature isn't intimidating, yet they are in other ways.
Intelligence - I can see how intelligence can be intimidating, but there are people who are dumber that a bag of hammers that are pretty intimidating.
Wisdom - Same as Intelligence, but there are people who aren't too wise that are intimidating.
Charisma - I can see how this ability is the one used for the skill currently, as you are forcing your personality on another individual, but the same goes for Charisma as with Wisdom and Intelligence; there are people out there that couldn't influence a dog with their personality, yet they are still intimidating in some sense.
Anybody have any thoughts on this skill? I kinda wanna know what they Pathfinder community's thoughts are on this skill.
The breaking the mug reference was in referring to breaking it with his fist or on a table, not by using it as an improvised weapon.
Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.My issue with that is by those rules the Terminator would not even be remotely intimidating.
I didn't see the Terminator as having a low Charisma at all. Low charisma folks would be the type you'd overlook ... wallflowers, your stereotypical nerd-sorts who can't ask a girl out on a date, folks like that.
The breaking the mug reference was in referring to breaking it with his fist or on a table, not by using it as an improvised weapon.intimidate is intimidating someone without violence, if you actually break a mug over someones head, then they should be "intimidated" unless the GM is being a pedant.I've been thinking this week about the Intimidate skill, and I'm finding it a bit confusing concerning it being based off Charisma. It's not that I don't like Charisma (most of my characters are Charisma based), but that I can and can't see this skill being tied to all ability scores. So I broke it down.
Strength - I can see someone breaking a beer mug or a chair over their leg as a means to intimidate someone (forgoing the hardness of the object for story's sake), but I have known people that aren't physically strong that are pretty intimidating.
Dexterity - Not really sure how you would use Dexterity to intimidate someone, so this is problematic.
Constitution - I can see someone using their physical build to intimidate someone, but like the Strength conundrum, I have known some people who's stature isn't intimidating, yet they are in other ways.
Intelligence - I can see how intelligence can be intimidating, but there are people who are dumber that a bag of hammers that are pretty intimidating.
Wisdom - Same as Intelligence, but there are people who aren't too wise that are intimidating.
Charisma - I can see how this ability is the one used for the skill currently, as you are forcing your personality on another individual, but the same goes for Charisma as with Wisdom and Intelligence; there are people out there that couldn't influence a dog with their personality, yet they are still intimidating in some sense.
Anybody have any thoughts on this skill? I kinda wanna know what they Pathfinder community's thoughts are on this skill.
my comment still stands, if you don't have a force of personality, you're not going to be very intimidating in a useful manner.
you crush the mug, he hands you another because he wants to see you do it again. he was more enthused and didn't pick up on your want to intimidate him because you have a lower force of personality.
I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.
I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.
Go to a bar, interact with a body builder who has no force of personality, have him look at you with a death glare and break a bottle with his bare hands, and tell me again that's not intimidating.
You can intimidate without force of personality. I've seen it before.
I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.Go to a bar, interact with a body builder who has no force of personality, have him look at you with a death glare and break a bottle with his bare hands, and tell me again that's not intimidating.
You can intimidate without force of personality. I've seen it before.
Right, this hypothetical body builder pulled off a good death glare. Without that they are just breaking more stuff. Granted, he could probably break me too, but that doesn't mean I'm intimidated by that fact. Just being strong isn't always intimidating, maybe they seem too nice or something. it's the look combined with the display of strength that tells me that they can break me and are WILLING to go through with it.
I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.Go to a bar, interact with a body builder who has no force of personality, have him look at you with a death glare and break a bottle with his bare hands, and tell me again that's not intimidating.
You can intimidate without force of personality. I've seen it before.
then he has charisma if he can glare at you and you think he's intimidating. go to.. idk, westeros and and look at hodor, and you tell me his strength is going to intimidate you.
I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.
Yeah. Just raw strength doesn't work if they guy follows it up utterly anemic threats. Intimidation isn't just being scary, it's leveraging your ability to be scary in order to make people do things. Though the Intimidating Prowess feat exists for a reason.
That said, I do think intimidate is one of those skills that can involve a lot of circumstance bonuses. It's certainly reasonable to give a circumstance bonus if the intimidator is obviously more powerful than the guy he's trying to intimidate.
Unintimidating guy breaks stuff. People wonder, "Why is that guy breaking stuff?"
Intimidating guy breaks stuff. People wonder, "Oh no, is he going to break me next?"
then he has charisma if he can glare at you and you think he's intimidating. go to.. idk, westeros and and look at hodor, and you tell me his strength is going to intimidate you.I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.Go to a bar, interact with a body builder who has no force of personality, have him look at you with a death glare and break a bottle with his bare hands, and tell me again that's not intimidating.
You can intimidate without force of personality. I've seen it before.
It would if he was mad, and being mad doesn't mean you have a high force of personality. Andi believe being scared is a form of being intimidated.
I didn't see the Terminator as having a low Charisma at all. Low charisma folks would be the type you'd overlook ... wallflowers, your stereotypical nerd-sorts who can't ask a girl out on a date, folks like that.Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.My issue with that is by those rules the Terminator would not even be remotely intimidating.
I'd say low charisma because there is literally no personality, only programming. As far as the portrayal being intimidating, ironically enough I am referring to "presence" as someone mentioned. You know there's something not right with the guy and it puts you on edge. It falls into uncanny valley territory, the slight wrongness of everything about him even before anything bad happens. That's the intimidation aspect I was talking about.
I'd say low charisma because there is literally no personality, only programming. As far as the portrayal being intimidating, ironically enough I am referring to "presence" as someone mentioned. You know there's something not right with the guy and it puts you on edge. It falls into uncanny valley territory, the slight wrongness of everything about him even before anything bad happens. That's the intimidation aspect I was talking about.I didn't see the Terminator as having a low Charisma at all. Low charisma folks would be the type you'd overlook ... wallflowers, your stereotypical nerd-sorts who can't ask a girl out on a date, folks like that.Charisma is just force of personality. I think Presence would be a better name for it but I see how it works for intimidation. Doing a display of brute strength is fine and good but without the force of personality to back it up it's going to have the same impact.My issue with that is by those rules the Terminator would not even be remotely intimidating.
As a couple folks have mentioned, the Terminators have never seemed to be terribly good at intimidation as a skill within their own movies. When the Terminator walks into a bar and orders someone to take off their clothes, they laugh at him and attack.
Terminators don't frighten people into compliance through non-violent means, they just very efficiently murder them. The Terminator is only intimidating if the character knows that it's an (almost) unstoppable murder-bot, and only because they know the Terminator will murder them, so they have to run to avoid being murdered.
True enough, I'm looking at it from the movie-goer perspective where you just know there's something menacing about the character before anything even happens. I still think it leaves a bit of a disconnect between charisma and intimidation in terms of something intangible just "being off," which adds to the creepiness of some people; I wouldn't really call that a by-product of charisma so much as potentially extremely low charisma, which is counter-intuitive.
True enough, I'm looking at it from the movie-goer perspective where you just know there's something menacing about the character before anything even happens. I still think it leaves a bit of a disconnect between charisma and intimidation in terms of something intangible just "being off," which adds to the creepiness of some people; I wouldn't really call that a by-product of charisma so much as potentially extremely low charisma, which is counter-intuitive.
look at the 7th stat, this is what you're talking about.
you could have negative scores and not die or go unconscious, instead people were scared of or hated you. depending on your race you either had negative scores or positive scores as the scores you liked. orcs liked and had negative scores by default. if you got your comeliness to above 30(or below -30) or so you started getting free charm persons and could force people to do things(or the ability to cause fear, etc), and people would shy away from attacking you.
I will say that, while terminators never really intimidate well, they are pretty good at disguise and bluff. Just try having a phone call with one. And lets not even begin to talk about the T-1000's at will alter self.
I think of it this way: if you take a strong guy, and have him crush a stone in his fist, but he's got a big dopey grin on his face, or looks kind of bored, that may not be intimidating at all. That's why we see so many scenes where the big strong guy does something like that, and then his boss/sidekick/friend/underling speaks on his behalf emphasizing that what the guy could do to the stone, he could do to YOU.
It being tied to charisma demonstrates your ability to do more than perform a demonstration, but to "attack" someone psychologically. That's also why we have several methods in the game for achieving basically the same results, but without the reliance on Cha or communication (Dazzling Display, for instance). Of course you can accomplish the same things with Str, Dex (think of Bruce Lee doing his "Dazzling Display" with nunchuks), Con, Int, or Wis, but then it's typically doing something else, or takes a trait, racial ability, feat, or spell to do so, because you're going about things a different way.
You also need to differentiate between intimidation and fear. They're closely related, but I feel like they aren't necessarily the same thing. Watching someone get eaten by a creature might instill fear in you without ever involving an attempt to shake your resolve (and that's really what Intimidate is...causing someone to be shaken without resorting to actual violence or magic).
The Terminator may have had a racial bonus, or significant circumstance bonuses, or a fear aura (like a dragon), or some other similar ability.
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I agree with Bandw2, I someone is just breaking stuff with no force of personality behind it, even if they are jacked up walking muscles, they look more like a child throwing a temper tantrum.
Absolutely, and with a high intimidate could made you pee you pants and start talking just by saying hello, hanging up his coat and siting down for a little talk.
Can my barbarian get a circumstance bonus to his Intimidate check if I enter rage, Strength Surge, and sunder/break something nearby? What if I combine this attempt with Ground Breaker to shatter the earth beneath my target's feet? Is that intimidating enough? No? Okay.
I think of it this way: if you take a strong guy, and have him crush a stone in his fist, but he's got a big dopey grin on his face, or looks kind of bored, that may not be intimidating at all. That's why we see so many scenes where the big strong guy does something like that, and then his boss/sidekick/friend/underling speaks on his behalf emphasizing that what the guy could do to the stone, he could do to YOU.
Why's the default assumption that he's got to have a dopey expression on his face? What if he's roaring at the top of his lungs, all red-faced and full of deadly intent? But, really--what does it matter? I'd be cautious around any man that could display that amount of strength. If he's dim-witted, that's all the more reason not to piss him off! Better tread carefully around giants.
I had a player with 6 Cha that really liked to intimidate NPCs. He never actively rolled, but it seemed to be part of his character so I wanted to incentivize him to make a check to influence the game mechanically. When he leveled, I offered to let him take a Custom Feat That I Made Up that allowed him to use the absolute value of his Cha modifier in place of his raw Cha modifier when making Intimidate checks.
It made sense for that particular character in that particular situation, but I don't think I'd like such feats to be globally available to players.
What is an "absolute value" and "raw value" in relation to ability scores, Splode?
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True enough, I'm looking at it from the movie-goer perspective where you just know there's something menacing about the character before anything even happens.
That's not the character being intimidating. That's the director rolling high for intimidate, with aid another from the actor and editor, and a circumstance bonus from the background music.
And as others have pointed out, there's feats to add other stats to intimidate. I believe the one to add strength bonus to your intimidation is in the Core Rulebook, or maybe it was the Advanced Players Guide. I'd call that the standard for fighters and barbarians trying to be big and muscular. And as a GM, I'll usually allow a circumstance bonus for holding a weapon to the victim while intimidating him.
What is an "absolute value" and "raw value" in relation to ability scores, Splode?
Absolute value is a math term: more or less, you take the magnitude of the number without regard to a positive or negative sign. The absolute value of 5 is 5, -3 is 3, etc. So in context, the feat allowed Splode's player to take his Cha modifier of -2, and add 2 to his Intimidate checks instead of subtracting 2.
What about when Mongo smashes something and then says, "Next me smash you"? Still not intimidating?
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What about when Mongo smashes something and then says, "Next me smash you"? Still not intimidating?
Not really. A horse can kill you. easily. we all know it. People are not scared of the horse. They fear the rat that might bite them, might get them sick. Acknowledging what he can do is not the same as being scared into submission. It is a reasoning issue not intimidation.