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So I have a question with regards to the swashbuckler's definition of a piercing weapon. I would like the interpretation to be as RAW as possible for PFS.
Does a weapon count as light or one handed piercing in the following scenarios:
1) A rapier used with the Weapon Versatility feat to do bludgeoning or slashing damage
2) A longsword used with the Weapon Versatility feat to do piercing damage
3) A lance used while mounted
4) A bastard sword with the Slashing Grace feat
5) A hand crossbow
6) Any other crossbow, used in one hand
7) One handed firearms
8) Unarmed Strikes using Boar Style
Thanks!
From reading over the swashbuckler's abilities, I believe that when they say piercing it needed to be melee weapons, so the crossbows and handguns are out.
As for the other questions, the abilities only state "piercing melee weapon" so as of now I'd say it's up for interpretation. Personally, if the weapon is doing piercing damage at the time and is one-handed, I'd say it counts.
Since it specifically goes into the details of how throwing weapons such as daggers are allowed within a certain range, but not how it functions for other ranged weapons, I think it is safe to assume it doesn't work for crossbows or guns.
The detail that I want to know personally is this- A version of #1 without being so complicated- what happens in you use a morning star (which does b AND p) or a cestus (which does b OR p).
Both are piercing weapons, but how does bludgeoning interact? Does the weapon need to be doing piercing specifically to work? This is quite important due to the ubiquity of DR/bludgeoning. Has anyone seen any comments on this?
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Thats a good question lemeres. Thats kind of what I wanted to steer to.
1)Does the fact that a weapon appears on a weapon table with a P as a damage type count for swashbuckling abilities
OR
2) Does a weapon that meets the requirements, as Tobias said above, count for swashbuckling abilities
OR
3) Both, or too ambiguous to comment either way
So I have a question with regards to the swashbuckler's definition of a piercing weapon. I would like the interpretation to be as RAW as possible for PFS.
Does a weapon count as light or one handed piercing in the following scenarios:
1) A rapier used with the Weapon Versatility feat to do bludgeoning or slashing damage
2) A longsword used with the Weapon Versatility feat to do piercing damage
3) A lance used while mounted
4) A bastard sword with the Slashing Grace feat
5) A hand crossbow
6) Any other crossbow, used in one hand
7) One handed firearms
8) Unarmed Strikes using Boar StyleThanks!
Swasbuckler states "one-handed piercing weapon."
Slashing Grace was specifically written to allow slashing weapons to work with the swashbuckler and the duelist, so if you have that feat your chosen weapon is also considered a piercing weapon.
As long as you're using your land in one hand, it counts. (Which is good, because the panache mechanic was named for the fashion choices of a French king who was known for his reckless behavior while fighting on horseback.)
The Weapon Versatility point is a good question. Technically speaking, it would work. However, if you switch a piercing weapon to any other type of damage, that weapon is no longer a piercing weapon and does not benefit from the swashbuckler's abilities. In the long run, Slashing Grace is easier to qualify for, but Weapon Versatility can apply to more weapons if you invest into it.
Since the preview blog implied that Unarmed Strikes modified by Boar Style would count for the swashbuckler, we can count that as being in, too. This is my main argument for why Weapon Versatility works.
Ranged weapons do not work. All of the abilities specifically state "make a melee attack" or the like.
Weapon Versatility doesn't make the weapon a "one-handed piercing weapon", though. It's not like Dervish Dance which specifically says the scimitar is now a one-handed piercing weapon.
I would actually argue the other way on Weapon Versatility. If you had a rapier, and the Weapon Versatility feat, I would say you can shift it to bludgeoning damage but still use your swashbuckler abilities with it. You didn't change the nature of the rapier. It's still a one-handed piercing weapon, you're just doing bludgeoning damage with it for this turn.
This is a good point, but note that the feat does not specify that it only lasts for a round. It lasts until you stop wielding the weapon or adjust your grip to a different type of damage.
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This feels like a gray area, I can see it going either way.
Benefit: When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon.
When activated, your standard swashbuckler is holding a weapon that can no longer do piercing damage (assuming they shifted it to bludgeoning, for example). The weapon he's holding is incapable of doing piercing damage, which would seem to suggest it no longer works as a piercing weapon for abilities that require it.
.. strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her
swashbuckler level to her damage roll.
It feels like folks wouldn't be too far off if they suggested that weapon versatility would prevent swashbuckler abilities.
Although, you could also certainly take the angle that the rapier is still a "one-handed piercing melee weapon" independently from the fact that it's no longer capable of doing "piercing damage".
It's possible that the final version of the ACG may have tightened up the text here and it uses a phrase like "one-handed piercing melee weapon to do piercing damage"... we'll know pretty shortly.
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FWIW, the weapons section and DR section both seem to indicate that the weapon type and damage type are the same thing.
Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Here it suggests monsters are immune to attacks from certain "types of weapons" not "certain types of damage". It also suggests that a weapon's type is derived from the type of damage a weapon deals. Thus, if you're holding a rapier that isn't currently dealing piercing damage, it's plausible that it's not currently classified as a piercing weapon.
Thus it's possible to go down this path:
Swashbuckler: I use weapon versatility to change my weapon damage type to bludgeoning against the skeleton.
GM: Okay, but you won't be able to use your swashbuckler abilities anymore since your weapon isn't bludgeoning.
Swashbuckler: Wait, my weapon is still piercing, the damage is bludgeoning though.
GM: Okay, if your weapon is still piercing, then the monster will still have it's DR because the book says monster damage resistance is based on the type of weapon and "damage type" is never mentioned. Is your weapon piercing or bludgeoning?
Swashbuckler: ...
Thus, Swashbucklers or Dervish Dancers going down the path of arguing their weapon type is unchanged while their damage type changed could potentially be rendering weapon versatility "worthless" in their case since all rules for DR focus on the weapon type and not the damage type.
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I still want to make that Dwarven swashbuckler with his Heavy Pick :)
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If using Weapon Versatility with a rapier doesn't work with the swashbuckler's abilities, I imagine the morningstar and gladius will become standard-issue for swashbucklers.Or the rapier with its 18-20 inherent crit range, coupled with the fact that you get free keen enchantment through class features as well as Dex to damage.
As far as Weird Words go, a)it's not a one-handed weapon so it doesn't qualify and b)the design team has indicated their intent to change the ability sooner rather than later, so I would just completely avoid it.
You misunderstand. I'm talking back-up weapons for DR.
Just because I can see myself trying, what is the general opinion on "Wierd Words"
No, because of bolded. With the exception of Precise Strike's interaction with thrown weapons, no Swashbuckler abilities interact with ranged weapons. They all specify "melee attacks."
To my reading, any weapon capable of dealing piercing damage is a piercing weapon; whether or not it is capable of any other kind of damage is irrelevant. It IS piercing, therefore it applies.
To my reading, any weapon capable of dealing piercing damage is a piercing weapon; whether or not it is capable of any other kind of damage is irrelevant. It IS piercing, therefore it applies.
That would mean that with the Weapon Versatility, any light or one handed melee weapon would count. Add in Jotungrip and any melee weapon is usable.
Even if we accept that as true, it still leaves the question of a "weapon capable of dealing piercing damage" but is dealing a different type at the time of attack. Is it still piercing for abilities that require piercing weapons? Does the Weapon Versatility grant the ability to ignore the requirement?
What is slashing grace?
It was a feat included directly after swashbuckler in the ACG preview that made it so you could use purely slashing weapons for their stuff.
Huh.
With Thunder and Fang, combined with Slashing Grace, you could finesse an Earthbreaker.
How does Slashing Grace play into this? The Earth Breaker is bludgeoning, it wouldn't be affected by the feat.
"When wielding your chosen weapon one handed, you can treat it as a one handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as swashbuckler’s precise strike). The weapon must be one for your size."
Not sure about the Thunder and Fang part though.
"When wielding your chosen weapon one handed, you can treat it as a one handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as swashbuckler’s precise strike). The weapon must be one for your size."
Not sure about the Thunder and Fang part though.
"Choose one type of one-handed slashing weapon."
Thunder and Fang does not require you to use a Klar to wield an Earth Breaker one-handed. I still think the Titan Mauler dip is better though, that is a lot of wasted feats for what amounts for an "I can, therefore I must" build.
Well, you don't HAVE to have a klar in your off hand. "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." Nothing in that sentence says anything about two weapon fighting or the klar. Thunder and Fang feat + Weapon Versatility should work fine.
Well, you don't HAVE to have a klar in your off hand. "You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon." Nothing in that sentence says anything about two weapon fighting or the klar. Thunder and Fang feat + Weapon Versatility should work fine.Good to know about Thunder and Fang. I confess myself not very familiar with the feat other than a cursory glance ages ago. I think for myself I'd still probably do it with the Titan Mauler dip as well, if for no other reason that the versatility of being able to use whatever 2hand weapon I want instead of just an Earth Breaker. And rage is always nice...
Oh yeah, Jotungrip is far better by far. Thunder and Fang is way too feat intensive for just the ability to use the earthbreaker 1handed.