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I want to build a cavalier, so I have been trying to get a good understanding of the mounted combat rules. Unfortunately, the deeper I go into them, the more complicated and contradictory they seem to get. Hopefully you all can clear up some of this stuff for me.
1) Starting off simple
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
So if the mount charges it moves more than 5 feet and the rider gets to make a single attack. This attack itself isn't clarified to be a "charge" attack, but it does give the rider the penalty's and bonuses of a charge. Presumably, this attack can't normally be done in the middle of the mounts movement. That being said, how does the rider ever get to use the lance on a charge? The animal charges, gets as close as it can (5 feet away) and now the rider's reach weapon is too close to use. It can't possibly work this way, but RAW that's what I see.
I have a lot more questions, but they build upon one another, and this one is fundamental to them all, so I'll add as this thread progresses.
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The Ride-By Attack feat is what you'll need asap.
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
This feat allows a rider with a reach weapon to strike their target from reach, and then have their mount continue to move and deliver their own attack.
Without Ride-By Attack, either you get to attack, or your mount gets to attack, but not both (as I understand it).
If your mount has reach, then its a non-issue. You both simply attack at reach.
Ride-by attack was next on the list of confusing things. Before that can of worms gets opened I thought I should really understand the basic charge. I get the first case (mount charges and attacks, rider can't use lance). The second case though, now has the mount "charging", but then it would have to stop short to let the rider attack with a lance. Since the charge rules state that:
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
, this doesn't seem like an option. If the whole thing is some sort of hybrid charge between the mount and rider (that isn't accounted for in the rules), things are going to start to get really messy as I start to delve into mounted feats and animal companion feats.
I just found a bit more info in the core rulebook FAQ about this. I missed it before because it's strangely out of alphabetic order, found here.
Additionally, there is a developer response to questions about this FAQ here.
Reading through all of this, a few things become clear. A "mounted charge" is a sort of special action requiring a full round action from the mount and rider. This is the only way to get the lance bonus. Additionally, Stephen Radney-MacFarland's comments say that it isn't the only way to charge on a mount. The mount can still charge while the rider does other things, but he doesn't get the charge/lance bonuses.
Unfortunately, it still doesn't really clear up the reach difference problem. It seems like the rider's portion of the "mounted charge" action would take precedence and make the mount stop short, but I'm not reading anything close to concrete.
No one has any input on this? This seems like it would come up a lot when using mounts. Am I just being too picky with specific wording and not seeing the RAI?
Moving forward, I guess let's assume that the "mounted charge" action gives the rider priority and allows the mount to stop short for a lance attack. If someone has rules that specify otherwise, or even an opinion on what was intended I'd be thrilled to have some input.
Next up is the feat "Ride-by Attack".
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
This definition is supplemented with some input by Sean K. Reynolds here. The most pertinent part of this discussion is:
If you want to move, have the mount attack, and move, the mount has to have Spring Attack. Ride-By Attack lets you attack in the middle of moving; it doesn't change the attack sequence for your mount (it doesn't mention your mount attacking at all).
There is also some very interesting clarification there on the "straight line of the charge" bit, as well as a bit that completely alters how I've seen all charges, mounted or otherwise ruled. When referring to the charge movement rules he says:
Yeah, not closest in terms of distance from your starting point, but in terms of "this is the first square along my path where I could attack this guy."
I suppose if you look at the "mounted charge" reach issue above as a single creature this would support the stopping short charge, as the mount/rider unit would charge to the closest spot in which any attack could be made (the lance).
Reading all of this, Ride-by attack still remains unclear. Does the mount need a charge target at the end of the second move to make this work (I'm going to say probably no)? If that were the case, the feat would essentially be saying that the rider can attack something while the mount is on his way to charging a different target, and the uses would be pretty limited. If not (like I suspect) does the mount have the option to charge/attack at the end of the second move (essentially making the above work, but not be a requirement). I probably seem like I'm focusing on minutiae here, but this actually becomes very relevant with the next feat in question, "Wheeling Charge".
I have to say, all of this rules ambiguity is making me very apprehensive about playing anything mounted.
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You are right to feel apprehensive. Mounted combat is a bit of a cluster made worse by band-aid fixes when it really needs a complete blog post or something similar addressing all the moving pieces involved (Ride checks, Handle Animal checks, reach differentials, action economy management, etc.).
Ride-by Attack allows the rider to attack in the middle of the charge without disrupting movement. Normally he has to attack at the end. If you want, the rider can strike one eligible target in the middle of the charge and the mount can make a separate attack at the end of the charge against a separate target, as long as that target was an eligible target to charge when the action was initiated. Note that Charge says you may make an attack at the end of the charge action specifically to accomodate mounted combat. It's also possible for your mount to choose a square as the target of its charge, so you have options in how you execute your mounted charge action.
It's also possible for your mount to choose a square as the target of its charge, so you have options in how you execute your mounted charge action.I never thought of that.
Technically you can't charge an empty square (since you must designate an opponent for a charge), but you can assume that there's an invisible creature in the square 5' in front of the enemy you want to charge and order your mount to charge it. Then the mount stops 10' from the real target, attacks the invisible creature (automatically missing because he's not in that square), while you make your lance attack. All perfectly legal RAW.
I retract the first paragraph of my first post on this topic and change my "house rule" to instead be "extremely contorted RAW".
You are right that you can't charge an empty square since the action requires an opponent and the floor doesn't qualify, but charging also requires line of sight at the beginning of the turn. Unfortunately, I don't think this works.
Something to note about charging, is that as written Ride-By Attack doesn't work.
SKR on charging
If we look a little earlier in the thread, we can see SKR's explanation of how a charge works (before somebody points out the "directly" language to him):
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Ignore the grid for a moment a draw a straight line.
Put the grid back and figure out which square on your line is the closest square you can attack from.
Move to that square and attack. If you have ride by attack, you may continue moving along that line.
SKR Post explaining charge lines.
Bonus clarification a few posts later.
tl;dr; The closest square isn't necessarily the universally closest square, it's the closest square on whatever line you choose to draw.
You are right that you can't charge an empty square since the action requires an opponent and the floor doesn't qualify, but charging also requires line of sight at the beginning of the turn. Unfortunately, I don't think this works.Sure it does, if you can see the empty square you have line of sight to charge it.
Or are you claiming that a creature can move 30 feet away, drink a potion of invisibility, and then he cannot be charged?
I'm saying that for a basic charge (mounted charges are up for debate, hence the thread), the attacker needs to have a "designated opponent", RAW it doesn't even look like you can charge to attack an object (the floor, a magic idol, or whatever else you can imagine):
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
So the other part is, can you work the system to charge a spot where an opponent could in theory be? As in, "I have no reasonable motive for thinking that there is an opponent here, but my mount is going to charge there and try to attack so that I can stop the correct distance to attack with a lance"
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
So that tells me that charging requires a visible, designated opponent.
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You are right that you can't charge an empty square since the action requires an opponent and the floor doesn't qualify, but charging also requires line of sight at the beginning of the turn. Unfortunately, I don't think this works.Sure it does, if you can see the empty square you have line of sight to charge it.
Or are you claiming that a creature can move 30 feet away, drink a potion of invisibility, and then he cannot be charged?
I'm saying that for a basic charge (mounted charges are up for debate, hence the thread), the attacker needs to have a "designated opponent", RAW it doesn't even look like you can charge to attack an object (the floor, a magic idol, or whatever else you can imagine):
quote]
So that tells me that charging requires a visible, designated opponent.
Is opponent actually a defined game term, or can you just designate the aforementioned magic idol as your "opponent"?
Ugh... Until they re-write the entire book on mounted combat, the best solution is to simply assume that it works the way you expect it should.
Basically, you and the mount become one figure on the board. So, you occupy the same space. You can charge along any line that you can realistically expect to attack your opponent on - whether that's a direct line, or an adjacent line. Ride By Attack allows you to make your charge attack, then continue your movement. Etc., etc., etc....
Is opponent actually a defined game term, or can you just designate the aforementioned magic idol as your "opponent"?
Not really, but looking at movement rules under the "opponent" heading we find:
You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
So a floor tile probably can't be an "opponent" because under normal circumstance it doesn't impair movement. A magic idol probably wouldn't impair movement (unless it's enormous), and unless it's a construct I don't think it could be "helpless" either. I know this is an ass-backwards way of defining something, but there isn't much else to go off of.
I've been running a Cavalry* campaign for a while now and pretty much we work as @The Crusader says - as expected. It's been an interesting exercise to get it all to work but we've managed. I would suggest making sure that everyone agrees on how it works before you start. A test combat (Tournee Melee?) helps with this.
Things like 5' steps in combat - does your mount just do it as desired? do you need to do a ride roll to direct it? and so on are better worked out before hand.
One of the most challenging things is making distances work, even without run a galloping horse can move 40 squares. We use small figures on a small scale map (10-20' per square) switching to normal figures on a large scale (normal)map for melee. Fortunately my players are enjoying the campaign enough to make it work.
* I gave everyone a "level" in Equestrian inc. mounted combat, mounted Archery and a point in ride, animal handling and Profession Cavalry. I also do a bit of fudging to keep mounts alive (reducing the damage they do as well as the damage they take)
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In normal dungeon scenarios most of the feats that people associate with mounted combat don't work. There are too many ways to disrupt a charge and too many rules surrounding them.
My advice is to give up on everything that relates to charging and build your mounted characters around movement. The charge mechanic is just too frustrating, but moving your character 100' or more in a round and swatting at things is fun. Especially when you ride into an area, make an attack, and ride out.
Why build feats around ride-by-attack when it is nerfed by not being able to charge? Your mount can double-move; and you can attack once without investing any feats. Spend your feats on things that help you do damage and lunge. Lunge is an essential feat for a mounted character.
Building a character around six feats that can be nullified by a 5 degree turn in the middle of a 100' move doesn't make any sense. Players get too excited by the "potential" for damage to realize that every monster in the game knows how to disrupt those feats.
Get rid of charging and you will have fun playing a mounted character.
And yet Pounce is considered one of the most powerful abilities available to melee characters. Charging only requires a 10 foot line and there are numerous ways to deal with things like difficult terrain. In giving up your charge you are sacrificing your ability to stay competitive in melee in exchange for some extra movement that isn't going to actually matter all that much if you're in an area where charges are so infeasible. Learning how to effectively execute your charge and navigate dungeons with a mount is going to pay off far better than just deciding to ignore the most effective component of mounted melee combat.
Now, if you're going for mounted archery, you can pretty much forget about any of the mounted combat feats, as even mounted archery isn't particularly valuable or necessary except under very specific circumstances.|
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If you really believe that establishing and maintaining effective charges and fighting while mounted are luck-dependent, then all I can say is, yeah, if you aren't capable of strategic thought more complex than tic-tac-toe, you probably shouldn't even be considering mounted combat.
Might be wise to stop practicing your snide smirk and focus on learning how to think tactically.
Choosing your charge lane, learning how to maximize the benefits of feats like Ride-by Attack, and taking advantage of your reach weapon to control and hold space on the battlefield are all factors in effective mounted combat, in addition to the basics like investing in Ride and Handle Animal, appropriate feats, and the right combat maneuvers.
Learning how to effectively execute your charge and navigate dungeons with a mount is going to pay off far better than just deciding to ignore the most effective component of mounted melee combat.Smirk. On your turn there is either a legal charge or there isn't. It isn't really a question of "learning" anything. If your enemy is aware of the charging rules they will negate your ability to make the charge. Sometimes on the first round you may have the opportunity to charge the melee-focused opponents. Again, it isn't something you can take credit for.
Well there's at least one thing that can be learned-
Have you looked at the wheeling charge feat? First, it makes it so you don't need a straight line to charge. Second, allies no longer count as obstructing a charge. Third, you can attack at ANY point in the charge. Assuming this combines with ride-by attack (which is unclear , but is a prereq for this feat), you also aren't provoking AoOs from the person you attack. What does that add up to? Seemingly, the drawbacks to the charge rule are almost completely ignored. What the heck even is a charge at that point?If you're adjacent to an opponent at the beginning of the turn, you can essentially attack at the beginning of your "charge", move in any direction you want (even through allies), and even turn once. If you use your imagination, there are a lot of situations where you could begin and end the "charge" adjacent to the same opponent.
Things get even more silly with the overrun feats and trample. Now enemies aren't even stopping charges, and if they're dumb enough to get in the way they'll likely end up prone, and hit by a hoof and an attack of opportunity from the rider. Throw a gorgon belt (or tiger style) on the mount and the player can essentially charge everywhere uninhibited. With a deinonychus, a lance, power attack and spirited charge, this would be an unfathomable amount of carnage every turn at really low levels.
.....so yeah, charging can be done reliably. Seeing the end result of a few mounted feats is why I wanted to lock down the basics before tackling the difficult rules questions. Unfortunately, the whole mounted combat rule set is so unclear that people can't even agree on what happens when a halfling cavalier charges with a lance. Trying to do anything interesting like Wheeling Charge with a mount in a PFS game is going to be a real headache.
If you're adjacent to an opponent at the beginning of the turn, you can essentially attack at the beginning of your "charge", move in any direction you want (even through allies), and even turn once. If you use your imagination, there are a lot of situations where you could begin and end the "charge" adjacent to the same opponent.
Im not sure you could attack before you moved. First wouldn't you have to have a legal target to "charge" to validate move toward? I would assume this is the target you gain the charge bonuses from. At minimum, Wouldn't you need to move 10 feet before gaining the lance bonuses? Just thinking logically, cause the mounted combat rules are so messed up right now.
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The reasons why the charges don't work with a small character with a reach weapon have been documented elsewhere.
Really? Because as far as I'm aware a small character on a medium mount is pretty much the suggested build for effectively executing charge attacks and mounted combat in general in all manner of environs.
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Really? Because as far as I'm aware a small character on a medium mount is pretty much the suggested build for effectively executing charge attacks and mounted combat in general in all manner of environs.The reasons why the charges don't work with a small character with a reach weapon have been documented elsewhere.
Too many small-sized cavaliers in existence is what killed Aroden.
Cavaliers are *supposed* to be normal sized. Riding horses.
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Really? Because as far as I'm aware a small character on a medium mount is pretty much the suggested build for effectively executing charge attacks and mounted combat in general in all manner of environs.The reasons why the charges don't work with a small character with a reach weapon have been documented elsewhere.
Too many small-sized cavaliers in existence is what killed Aroden.
Cavaliers are *supposed* to be normal sized. Riding horses.
Small-sized cavaliers have been the obvious go-to choice since Sir Didymus and his riding dog Ambrosious helped take down the Goblin King in 1986.
Who can forget the heroic halfling knight Mazzy from Baldur's Gate? Sure, her riding dog had been eaten by shadow demons by the time she joins your team, but she was obviously a cavalier from the Order of the Star.
In more recent months the obvious merits of small cavaliers were again acknowledged by R.A. Salvatore when Regis joined an entire adventuring party of halfling cavaliers in "The Companions".
Also, jockeys.
If you're adjacent to an opponent at the beginning of the turn, you can essentially attack at the beginning of your "charge", move in any direction you want (even through allies), and even turn once. If you use your imagination, there are a lot of situations where you could begin and end the "charge" adjacent to the same opponent.Im not sure you could attack before you moved. First wouldn't you have to have a legal target to "charge" to validate move toward? I would assume this is the target you gain the charge bonuses from. At minimum, Wouldn't you need to move 10 feet before gaining the lance bonuses? Just thinking logically, cause the mounted combat rules are so messed up right now.
I'm not sure either, which is why I was hoping this thread would clear some things up LOL.
Wheeling Charge says: "When you are mounted and use the charge action, your mount can make one turn of up to 90 degrees as part of the move, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet. You may make an attack during any part of this move."It's been established that a "charge action" makes both the rider and mount count as charging. If wheeling charge allows you to attack at "any point of the charge", the starting space is a point, and thus counts. Therein lies the problem: wheeling charge builds on ride by attack as far as I can tell, but ride by attack is also unclear. If ride by attack requires the mount to end it's move adjacent to the target of the mounts charge (while the rider is charging some other creature along the same line), then wheeling charge would too. If ride by attack doesn't make a the mount do this, then wheeling charge has almost no restrictions left.
I'm confusing myself writing all of this LOL. What a mess.