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Which spell takes precedence: an empowered False Life CL 10 with 2 temp hp left cast 1st, a False Life CL 9 with 10 temp hp cast second, or a False Life heightened to a 3rd level spell with 10 temp hp which was cast last? Why? And what happens when
Let's say a player has a 9th level wizard who wakes up and casts False Life using a lesser rod of empower and a borrowed orange prism ioun stone which increases his caster level to 10. He rolls awesome and ends up with 30 temporary hit points. In his very first combat his party is getting trashed and he gets hit a few times for 28 hit points of damage and 4 points of constitution damage leaving him just 2 temporary hit points. In a moment of respite with no threats visible to him he casts another False Life and rolls a 1 which should provide him with 10 temp hit points. Still in initiative, his paranoia gets the better of him and he casts a False Life he heightened to a 4th level spell (I have no clue why) and rolls a 2, which should provide him with 11 temp hit points. Since these all grant the same effect with different strengths... how many temporary hit points should our scared out of his mind wizard have? What happens when each spell, which is not dismissable, discharges?
The relevant RAW are as follows:
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
This can also be found online here.
In this passage, when referring to different strengths, what is being referred to? Spell level, caster level, or strength of the result?
In the following round our wizard is hit with three arrows doing 5 damage each, then a dispel magic with a 20 total (dispelling one of his CL 9 spells if one is still present), then three more arrows doing an average of 5 damage each. What exactly happens?
He would have 11 temporary hp.
After the 1st arrow, the first spell with only 2hp would be gone, the second would have 5hp left, the third 6hp left.
After the 2nd arrow, the second spell would be gone, the third would have 1 hp left.
After the 3rd arrow, the third false life would be gone, and the dispel magic would affect other spells if any.
If the dispel magic hit first, it's a random roll which of the L.9 spells is taken off - no effect if it's the second spell, one less temp if the third. If the dispel was strong enough to take off the L.10 casting, it would do so, and have no net effect.
Edit: I think the trouble you're having with the rules is that you're trying to apply general rules to specific situations. Especially so for the "Differing Results" text, which has both "Sometimes" and "Usually" in it. This text is trying to cover a lot of spells and situations that existed when it was written, and all the situations that could come to exist afterwards.
The "different strengths" is the one that applies here, making the other two irrelevant unless the last is dispelled. Their effects are overlapping, and used up simultaneously.
A similar (but not identical) situation is if someone with resist energy (CL 3) up, as well as protection from energy with 7 hp remaining. If they are hit for 12 points of damage (of the appropriate energy type), they will suffer 2 points of damage, because the resist and protection both 'absorb' each point of damage, one up to 7, the other up to 10, not one and then the other.
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Edit: I think the trouble you're having with the rules is that you're trying to apply general rules to specific situations. Especially so for the "Differing Results" text, which has both "Sometimes" and "Usually" in it. This text is trying to cover a lot of spells and situations that existed when it was written, and all the situations that could come to exist afterwards.
The "different strengths" is the one that applies here, making the other two irrelevant unless the last is dispelled. Their effects are overlapping, and used up simultaneously.
The problems I have with this rule are as follows:
1) How is 'different strengths' defined? By Caster Level, Spell Level, or result of the dice? Is this 'strength' as defined in Detect Magic ('Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.')? If so, the result of dice will never come into play in determining the strength of a spell.
2) The word 'Usually' in the context of this rules text is undefined inside the rule. I would think that means that if the rule is to not be applied, the reason would be stated outside of the rule in either another section of the Combining Magic Effects or in the specific spell text. You may not agree, which makes this one word part of the problem and worth adding.
3) 'the last spell in the series trumps the others' and 'their effects become irrelevant' seems to indicate something other than the spell effects working in series or parallel. Another way to phrase it is 'When the trumping False Life spell ends, what exactly happens when the next False Life spell switches from irrelevant to relevant trump?
A similar (but not identical) situation is if someone with resist energy (CL 3) up, as well as protection from energy with 7 hp remaining. If they are hit for 12 points of damage (of the appropriate energy type), they will suffer 2 points of damage, because the resist and protection both 'absorb' each point of damage, one up to 7, the other up to 10, not one and then the other.
Since Resist Energy specifically has the text "Resist energy overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted." in it; this would be an unusual situation (see 2 above).
Is there perhaps a different example you would like to use in place of Resist Energy?
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Which ever spell was last cast is the only False Life spell still in operation. casting a false life on yourself when you already have the spell in place, ends the earlier spell.Which spell takes precedence: an empowered False Life CL 10 with 2 temp hp left cast 1st, a False Life CL 9 with 10 temp hp cast second, or a False Life heightened to a 3rd level spell with 10 temp hp which was cast last? Why? And what happens when
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Previous spells are not canceled but like sources don't stack. Only the spell granting the highest number of temporary hit points is active, but all spells are present.
Damage would be subtracted from all.
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Which ever spell was last cast is the only False Life spell still in operation. casting a false life on yourself when you already have the spell in place, ends the earlier spell.
Ends the earlier spell? Are you saying that casting a second instance of a spell (any spell? or specifically just False Life) ends any and all previous copies of itself on the same target? Why does it end the earlier spell?
I can't find text that indicates so.
There does not seem to be something along these lines in the Core Book's Magic section. And why would the words 'The same spell' be found in rules text like "Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."
This doesn't have some text in it like Baleful Polymorph which says "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action." so...
Based on the text "You harness the power of unlife to grant yourself a limited ability to avoid death. While this spell is in effect, you gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + 1 per caster level (maximum +10)." found here; I would disagree.
Based on the "Duration 1 hour/level or until discharged; see text" The spell isn't even dismissable.
What rules text are you basing your opinion on? Please include links to the PRD or SRD to the rules text as I would really like to read it (though I may still disagree with it).
Differing strengths examples are given in the book. The one that gave the most hit points takes precedence.
As an example if I cast mirror image 3 times whichever casting gives the most images is the one that counts.
As for Lazar's comment, it is incorrect unless the spell specifically says the previous spell is automatically dismissed.
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like sources don't stack.
"Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."
False Life is the same spell as False Life. 1d10 + 1 per caster level (maximum +10) temp hit points is an varying effect.
This rules text indicates they do stack. I would like to know exactly how they stack.
Only the spell granting the highest number of temporary hit points is active, but all spells are present.
When the active or trumping False Life spell ends, what exactly happens when the next False Life spell switches from inactive and irrelevant to active and relevant trump?
Let's say a 9th level wizard who wakes up and casts False Life using a lesser rod of empower and a borrowed orange prism ioun stone which increases his caster level to 10. He rolls awesome and ends up with 30 temporary hit points. During a combat a cleric with Antimagic Field walks up to him suppressing his False Life and does 32 points of damage. The wizard does a withdraw action and moves 60 feet away, but provokes an Attack of Opportunity from a creature that hits him with a dagger for 2 hit points of damage? Is this wizard 34 hp from his max hp, 4 hp from his max hp, or 2 hp from max with 28 temp hit points left? Once that's been figured out we can move on to the next step.
The next step is figuring out if the the words 'suppressed', 'inactive', 'trumped', and 'irrelevant' all mean the same thing in a game where they are not defined game terms. I would certainly like to know your thoughts on this.
Is there perhaps a different example you would like to use in place of Resist Energy?
No, I think those spells spell out quite clearly the normal rules, extending them to cover those spells (since they technically operate differently). But I see I'm falling behind in the conversation and Arthanthos is explaining perfectly.
I do want to provide the text from the 3.0 SRD, since I think it was a little clearer for the typical examples. It was more generalized in 3.5 and Pathfinder but lost some clarity. This honestly happened a lot, as Pathfinder was written with deeply experienced 3.5 players in mind (and playtesting).
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Edit: Answer to example is 32 hp from max with 28 temporary.
That's the way I run because the other interpretation is just too wonky and simply doesn't make sense.
If you're going to insist on overlap I'll run it this way then. The spell with the greatest amount of hit points is the one operational. As damage removes the temporary points, the same amount is removed from ALL false life spells present on the wearer, Which will mean when the operational spells points are exhausted, so will have been those from the the others.
In other words, you are not going to get any benefit from stacking 10 False Life spells on yourself, no matter how you manage to pull it off.
That's pretty much what the rules say to do anyway, just worded a bit differently. The main distinction is that you can dispel one of the false life effects and the rest will still work. Similarly, if they have different expiration dates then one might still have to track what the "best" effect they have left is.
Fortunately, this is a pretty rare occurrence outside of players trying to metagame the system.
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That's the way I run because the other interpretation is just too wonky and simply doesn't make sense.
If you're going to insist on overlap I'll run it this way then. The spell with the greatest amount of hit points is the one operational. As damage removes the temporary points, the same amount is removed from ALL false life spells present on the wearer, Which will mean when the operational spells points are exhausted, so will have been those from the the others.
In other words, you are not going to get any benefit from stacking 10 False Life spells on yourself, no matter how you manage to pull it off.
Please let me clarify: The benefit I am seeking, is not the stacking 10 False Life spells or even two, but rather a better and clear understanding of the rules as written... especially since these are rules core to the entirety of the game we play.
I've seen casters stack extra higher level buffs (some of them even absurd buffs), to prevent dispelling of their lower level and more important buffs. For instance, multiple castings of water breathing split among 5 party members can often save the wizards mage armor and shield along with the cleric's divine favor and protection from evil from being dispelled.
As to your interpretation of the biggest randomly generated number determining the strength instead of the Caster Level or the Spell Level, is there a quotable rule or reason which swayed you to this particular choice?
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Differing strengths examples are given in the book. The one that gave the most hit points takes precedence.
I would like to know more please. Could you please go to to said book, note the title of said 'book' and print version, then find this example you speak of and note it, and finally post the information so previously noted to this thread? I would really appreciate it, since that is the very information I am looking for.
As an example if I cast mirror image 3 times whichever casting gives the most images is the one that counts.
Please quote the rules that make you think this and cite where they are from. It would be a huge help.
Thank you.
It's amazing how many people skip reading the very first chapter of the rules.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
The relevant portion is: "Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies." Unless specifically stated as an exception (such as circumstance and dodge bonuses), multiple bonuses/effects of the same source/type will overlap (only apply the highest value) instead of stacking (add values together).
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Is there perhaps a different example you would like to use in place of Resist Energy?No, I think those spells spell out quite clearly the normal rules, extending them to cover those spells (since they technically operate differently). But I see I'm falling behind in the conversation and Arthanthos is explaining perfectly.
I think if Resist Energy and Protection from Energy used an example that illustrated how the normal rules apply to them you would be correct. Instead they include the text "Protection from energy overlaps (and does not stack with) resist energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted."
Since these spells are not providing an example of the existing rules being applied to these two spells; but are instead providing new rules text applicable only to themselves, then this would be contrary to the regular rules. In other words: since writers do not repeat the regular rules in every spell; this must not be a regular rule.
This is why I thought this might a bad example to support your argument and was hoping for a different example.
I do want to provide the text from the 3.0 SRD, since I think it was a little clearer for the typical examples. It was more generalized in 3.5 and Pathfinder but lost some clarity. This honestly happened a lot, as Pathfinder was written with deeply experienced 3.5 players in mind (and playtesting).
That is a great idea. Thank you for doing so.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Okay, let's compare and contrast those with the pathfinder. Instead of bolding as the text normally does; I will strike out words removed from the SRD and bold and italicize and new words included.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the
bestone with the highest strength applies.Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
In the first case of changing 'best one applies' to 'one with the highest strength', it does make it fractionally more clear; as players and characters alike can no longer say things like "This is the best one because I cast it with my pinky held out like this." It's still confusing as it does not define strength; leaving us to figure out if it's referencing Spell Level, Caster Level, or variable rolled.
In the second case, In the the text being omitted makes the rule more confusing; so I for one am glad they added it. In either case, the rule does not define how the previous spells are being made irrelevant (or after the addition, what happens when it is being trumped).
Well, it was still a good idea to try; i just don't think it bore fruit this time around. I will endeavor to think of trying it with other rules arguments though.
Re: protection from energy and resist energy
That line is in there specifically to prevent an exploit (reducing the damage taken with resist energy before using protection from energy to negate the remainder). Technically, protection from energy does not provide energy resistance, so normal stacking rules would not otherwise apply.
Differing strengths examples are given in the book. The one that gave the most hit points takes precedence.I would like to know more please. Could you please go to to said book, note the title of said 'book' and print version, then find this example you speak of and note it, and finally post the information so previously noted to this thread? I would really appreciate it, since that is the very information I am looking for.
As an example if I cast mirror image 3 times whichever casting gives the most images is the one that counts.Please quote the rules that make you think this and cite where they are from. It would be a huge help.
Thank you.
With regard to "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths":
With mirror image I think it is safe to say getting 8 images is better than having 4 images. All of these images come from the same source so you won't be getting 12 images. That means you get 4 or 8.Basically if a spell always does the same thing with varying amount of success you keep the best result unless otherwise stated.
This is due to the stacking rules, and it prevents you from using the same source over and over again to get some insanely high number of ____
Unlike 3.5 some of the rules in Pathfinder do not go into a lot of detail. I was going to use the 3.5 articles, but they just got taken down. I know it is a different game, but the wording was the same so the same meaning should apply.
However I do have a copy of the 3.5 players handbook, and it uses ray of enfeeblement as an example.
Paraphase---> If you hit someone with that spell twice with a -4 penalty, and a -6 the -6 is the one that applies. Page 172, First Printing
Now I will go into--> "Same Effect with Differing Results":
This would apply to the polymorph spells as an example where it would not make sense to say you can be bear and a lion at the same time.
Also 3.5 PHB is the reference.
If you have other questions just ask.