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This is why every player should have their odd spells, feats, abilities printed out or bookmarked. Discuss tthese things with gm before the game to avoid rules disputes.
If you summon, have complete stat blocks on what you conjure.
If you sunder, have the break Items table handy.Players are required to know how their pc works.
this will all avoid 90 percent of rules disputes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!
I heard a story of one player who likes to use summon spells, Even "Summon Minor Monster". Dude poured over the Summoned monster stat blocks and chose about 20-30 of his favorites. He has a little notebook with all of his preferred summoned monster stat blocks and abilities, even the Tiny Animals.
I want to be this guy if I ever resort to a summoning-heavy character.
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If you want an almost guaranteed rules debate, try going into stealth using an ally for cover, then move straight to a non-flanking position for a flat-footed sneak attack.Yeah, starting your turn off by doing something the rules explicitly call out as not working tends to cause people to point that out..I suppose that was a bit ambiguous. The soft cover stealth part is the catch, but otherwise it's legal as far as I can tell. I use it as an example because 1) the stealth with soft cover catch is strangely buried under the main heading "cover and attacks of opportunity" in the pfsrd, while the CRB places it under "soft cover" rather than "cover and stealth checks". In other words, it can be hard to find even if you're looking for it. 2) the stealth rules have been changed in an errata, so even if someone did know them, they might not now. 3) said errata is ambiguous, so you have to actually dig up a post on here by Jason Bulmahn to verify that yes, you can sneak attack from stealth.
Soft cover does not disallow attacks of opportunity, nor can you use soft cover to stealth.
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Soft cover does not disallow attacks of opportunity, nor can you use soft cover to stealth.If you want an almost guaranteed rules debate, try going into stealth using an ally for cover, then move straight to a non-flanking position for a flat-footed sneak attack.Yeah, starting your turn off by doing something the rules explicitly call out as not working tends to cause people to point that out..I suppose that was a bit ambiguous. The soft cover stealth part is the catch, but otherwise it's legal as far as I can tell. I use it as an example because 1) the stealth with soft cover catch is strangely buried under the main heading "cover and attacks of opportunity" in the pfsrd, while the CRB places it under "soft cover" rather than "cover and stealth checks". In other words, it can be hard to find even if you're looking for it. 2) the stealth rules have been changed in an errata, so even if someone did know them, they might not now. 3) said errata is ambiguous, so you have to actually dig up a post on here by Jason Bulmahn to verify that yes, you can sneak attack from stealth.
I agree with the stealth, as it is called out specifically as not permitting it (and no bonus to reflex saves unlike normal cover).
However, soft cover gives no mention of not being cover for their interactions with AoO's...why would they not prevent them like all other forms of cover?
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Probably a slight misunderstanding of:
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.
Did not know friendly characters didn't provide you with cover when moving through their squares. TIL.
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I find that your best bet as a player is to start off by providing too much information and then dialing it back based on the reaction of the GM:
GM: The troll charges the Cleric...
Player: I believe that movement would trigger an AoO from me as he passes, and since I have Combat Reflexes, I can take one even while flat-footed. And he's charging, right, so -2 AC?
GM: That's correct. Go ahead.Even if it seems long-winded, it actually saves time and is less antagonistic than this:
GM: The troll charges the Cleric
Player: <rolls dice> Does a 24 hit?
GM: Hit what?
Player: I'm taking my AoO
GM: You're flat-footed, so you don't get one.
Player: I have Combat Reflexes, so I do.
GM: Fine. No, it misses.
Player: Are you including the AC penalty for charging?
GM:
Back in the 3.5 LG days, I used to get a perverse joy out of catching DMs flat-footed by using little known or obscure rules. One day I was playing at a convention and got jumped by a bunch of incorporeal creatures. I cast Ectoplasmic Evard's Black Tentacles to nab them all. Unfortunately, I had to catch myself in the spell to do it. Everyone assumed that was a stupid thing to do as I was just a weak sorcerer and likely couldn't escape my own spell. The next round I told the DM I was casting Dimension Door and was Taking 10 on the Concentration check, meeting the exact DC needed to cast a spell while in a grapple. The DM promptly starting picking up rule books and flipping through them. Five minutes later he was still flipping through them. I asked him what he was doing and he waived me off. Eventually, after 10 minutes of searching through the rules and exclaimed, 'Ah, Ha! You can't Take 10 on Concentration checks during combat. It says so right here.'
Normally, I would have responded in kind by gleefully pointing out I had the Steady Concentration feat which specifically allows me to Take 10 on Concentration checks regardless of the situation, thus winning my little game of 'I know the rules better than you do.' Except this time I realized playing this rather immature game had just cost everyone at the table 10 minutes of valuable play time, all because I wanted to catch the DM off guard with the rules rather than tell him up front that I was Taking 10 on my concentration check using Steady Concentration. In short, I was being a douche. I've been avoiding playing that game ever since. I still take pride in my rules knowledge, but now I try to use it to help the game rather than play one upmanship with the DM.
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Probably a slight misunderstanding of:
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.
No. My understanding of the rule of soft cover, is that it only provides an AC bonus vs ranged attacks. That it otherwise does not act as cover and thus does not stop an AoO.
Otherwise a wizard could stand in the 5' square behind his 2 fighter friends and not have to make concentration checks to cast defensively against an Ogre.
Probably a slight misunderstanding of:
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.No. My understanding of the rule of soft cover, is that it only provides an AC bonus vs ranged attacks. That it otherwise does not act as cover and thus does not stop an AoO.
Otherwise a wizard could stand in the 5' square behind his 2 fighter friends and not have to make concentration checks to cast defensively against an Ogre.
Careful with the details though. A reach weapon counts as ranged for the purpose of cover.
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Otherwise a wizard could stand in the 5' square behind his 2 fighter friends and not have to make concentration checks to cast defensively against an Ogre.
That wizard has cover and does not provoke while casting if there is a wall of PCs between him and the Ogre.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
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Careful with the details though. A reach weapon counts as ranged for the purpose of cover.Probably a slight misunderstanding of:
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.No. My understanding of the rule of soft cover, is that it only provides an AC bonus vs ranged attacks. That it otherwise does not act as cover and thus does not stop an AoO.
Otherwise a wizard could stand in the 5' square behind his 2 fighter friends and not have to make concentration checks to cast defensively against an Ogre.
My example would be moot if that wasn't assumed.
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Otherwise a wizard could stand in the 5' square behind his 2 fighter friends and not have to make concentration checks to cast defensively against an Ogre.That wizard has cover and does not provoke while casting if there is a wall of PCs between him and the Ogre.
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, now go read the soft cover rules and half high walls rules on the next page, either if which can be used to say a Large Ogre that's twice your size can consider you not cover if its closer to the cover than you. Or if the cover is half your height. And the fact that soft cover states you don't get other things cover grants.
So if its Ogre who's 10' or taller and two fighters who are roughly half height by the way the grid works, and the wizard... It could be argued that the fighters provide partial cover at best, and being the same distance away from partial cover essentially negates the cover.
Would you rather the +4 to your AC or have to cast defensively?
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In general, I want players to politely and quickly point out rules mistakes that I am making. I especially want them to point out when I am inadvertently HELPING them (either by a rules mistake or by forgetting something).
If there is a dispute, they get a QUICK chance to correct me, citing evidence. If I still disagree, then we move on and discuss it later. Unless it is VERY important.
The exception to this is when I am "obviously" deliberately bending the rules. For example, I will not make a new player worry about all the minutae of cover, AoOs, etc if they are clearly already being overwhelmed by everything AND if they could accomplish what they want in a slightly different fashion.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Yes, now go read the soft cover rules and half high walls rules on the next page, either if which can be used to say a Large Ogre that's twice your size can consider you not cover if its closer to the cover than you. Or if the cover is half your height.
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Nothing there about getting to not consider the PC as cover, so on to...
A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.
So there's no cover as long as both of the following are true: fighter is half the ogre's height, and the ogre is closer to the fighter than the wizard is. The first is true, but not the second, so the cover is not ignored by this rule. So moving on again...
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
Okay, so the ogre gets to pick which of his squares he uses to determine if the wizard has cover. Still nothing about ignoring cover. The only other subheading of cover that seems potentially relevant would be...
If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM's discretion.
But all that does is halve the bonuses. Still nothing about ignoring the "no AoO" rule or negating cover.
So I just read all the things you asked us to read, and didn't come across anything supporting your claim that soft cover doesn't prevent AoO's. Was it somewhere else, perhaps?
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Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.Okay, so the ogre gets to pick which of his squares he uses to determine if the wizard has cover. Still nothing about ignoring cover. The only other subheading of cover that seems potentially relevant would be...
My guess is this part.
An ogre would have 8 squares (cubes really) that it occupies if we look at it from a 3D perspective, whereas the fighter only occupies 1 square(cube). I'm assuming it's looking at one of the top row of squares the ogre occupies (in the 5-10 ft. range), and if you choose one of the top corners of those and look to the top corners of the wizard, nothing would oppose it.
I don't run it that way, but I can see that as being a possible interpretation.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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An ogre would have 8 squares (cubes really) that it occupies if we look at it from a 3D perspective, whereas the fighter only occupies 1 square(cube). I'm assuming it's looking at one of the top row of squares the ogre occupies (in the 5-10 ft. range), and if you choose one of the top corners of those and look to the top corners of the wizard, nothing would oppose it.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
You choose one of your own corners, but have to draw lines to EVERY corner of the target's square. If ANY are obstructed, there's cover.
So going 3D doesn't negate the cover either.
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An ogre would have 8 squares (cubes really) that it occupies if we look at it from a 3D perspective, whereas the fighter only occupies 1 square(cube). I'm assuming it's looking at one of the top row of squares the ogre occupies (in the 5-10 ft. range), and if you choose one of the top corners of those and look to the top corners of the wizard, nothing would oppose it.To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).You choose one of your own corners, but have to draw lines to EVERY corner of the target's square. If ANY are obstructed, there's cover.
So going 3D doesn't negate the cover either.
Good point.
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So this is my official speech when players sit down to the table:
This is how I handle all rules disputes. Because they know for a fact that I live by Rule Zero. Any player that wants to sit and fight me, won't if they want to play. Yes this means many don't play with me cause they value being right instead of having fun. But that's okay. If you are going to sit and fight me at the table, you aren't having any fun. You let me know how that goes for you. :)