
DreamGoddessLindsey |
Hello, I had a software question. I've mostly moved to virtual tabletops when I host Pathfinder game sessions. I'm looking for a virtual tabletop that can specifically handle world map traval (12-mile hexes and such).
Currently, I use MapTool. It's fantastic for dungeons and such stages, but it is horrible when trying to run a world map because the maps I make in Hexographer are too big even with the worst resolution I can go with. The load times are horrible.
So is there a program or software out there that can handle world maps?

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We use Roll20 for our world map. We have one large-scale map, and have also broken it up into a dozen or so 'detail' maps for each region. I've played with both Maptool and Roll20, and understand the pros and cons of each. From what you've said, I doubt you'd have a better experience in roll20. In general, MapTool is more technically impressive but has a steep learning curve, while Roll20 is less fancy but 'just works' without a steep learning curve.
It sounds like your problem is trying to generate overly-detailed maps. A large map optimized to look gorgeous will be anti-optimized to load quickly, and vice versa. For example, having a detailed texture on your 'forests' and 'oceans' requires a lot of bits, each of which must transfer across the network and be loaded into your VTT. E.G. Try making your forest 'green' and your ocean 'blue', without lot of detailed texture. Such maps will load a lot faster.
The solution you seek isn't using different software. The solution is learning to make leaner maps. Start with a black-and-white line-drawing big map. Verify that works well. Then add a splash of color and a bit more detail, and see if that slows things down. Find the 'sweet spot' where you get a nice-looking map that also loads quickly.
Carefully watch the 'file size' of the maps you generate. It's perfectly possible to create a large-size map that looks pleasing to the eye, but does not occupy lots of file size. This is an art, and requires practice. File format may also make a difference, as different image formats(e.g. PNG, JPEG, GIF)are optimized for different purposes.

DreamGoddessLindsey |
Well mine aren't detailed. They're made in the same style as the old Gazetteers. Minimal.
Problem is that Pathfinder plays on 12-mile hexes. In Hexographer, the biggest map I can build using 12-mile hexes is roughly 240x120. When I export them to a file, it ends up being a huge 20 MB each due to the pictures being 5409x3133 each. That's minimal! It's the very smallest I can possibly get it, with each hex being only 30x26 pixels.
As such, my world map currently has about a dozen of these images and takes forever to load. I have no idea how to further streamline it. Is there a method I'm missing?

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Either use something besides hexographer, else explore ways to have that software generate reasonable-sized files. The software you use to generate your maps seems to not be intended for making lightweight maps. I don't know Hexographer. Unless it has some way to control this sort of detail, it's the wrong software to use.
As a general rule, you want to keep all map files under 1 MB, preferably less than 100KB. That will make things feel responsive and snappy for your players. Sometimes we allow our big maps to reach 5 MB, but that's about where things start slowing down.
Note that various (free!) Image Editing software programs have the ability to edit things like detail-level and image size. Definitely don't spend $$$ on this, as the free tools are also the best tools.
You either need to find a different way to make your big maps, else you need to do some post-processing (in other software) to make your maps reasonable sized. There are dozens of tips and tricks to do this.
The problem you are bumping into is the EXACT SAME problem that every graphical web designer faces: how to generate a pleasing visual image within reasonable bandwidth constraints. Again, this is an art, and requires practice. Understanding image file formats will help a lot: you need to choose the right format, as Wraithstrike mentions above. PNG is probably (but not certainly) your best option.

DreamGoddessLindsey |
Hmmm, can't seem to shrink the file. It's already at maximum compression for PNG. I can shrink it a little by making it a JPG, but then I lose the transparency layer I need in order to have the map pieces fit together without overlaps, so that idea is out.
Not sure what to do. Each hex is already down to 26x30. The problem is that it's part of a world map so since Mystara is IIRC about 15,000 miles around, you need 1250 hexes across for a whole world.
The only other thing I could try is making it a single map, but that'd make the file so bulky I'm not sure Hexographer or MapTool can handle it because they both run on Java, which is a pretty cruddy platform for anything because of the technical limits of the platform.

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Here are some tips. This is for Roll20, but everything there applies equally to MapTool.

Gauss |

Roll20 automatically breaks maps up into sections to reduce the processing load on your computer. This is a behind the scenes element to how Roll20 works and will not affect how you use your maps.
If you use a 5MB map (maximum size limit for free users) it should not slow things down provided it is not PNG. If you can, avoid PNG images for maps because PNG maps may slow down people's processing time (PNG is a resource hog).
With that said, my suggestion is taking your mega-map and breaking it up into sections using an image program such as Gimp.
Also, there is a practical size limit for hex maps in Roll20. If you find you need more than 500x500 hexes (just a ballpark estimate) you may want to consider breaking the map up in separate pages.
If you decide to use Roll20 and you need further help feel free to ask. You can find me on the Roll20 boards. :)

KainPen |
resize the resolution of the map to 50% the again by 50% your resolution is way to high that is why you are having size problems. you can do this in paint. but I suggest doing it else where as the image is going to eat a ton of ram. your image file if 20meg will eat up 1.5 to 2 gigs of ram. your computer has to decompress it to view it. This is the issue you are having. The Grid lines are going to stay in the same place and the same distance a part. but the image you are using will change. your more then likely have a DPI range of 150 to 200. this make file size huge map, but you really don't need that level of detail, 100 to 50 dpi is often more the enough. I have even gotten really good maps at 25dpi for those that are really huge physically like your world map. Change to JPG as you are not use transparency instead of PNG. This will save you more space.

DreamGoddessLindsey |
Well currently I don't have one huge map. Since a world map would need about 1250x625 hexes, I only make maps at 240x120. Problem is each hex is already small at 30x26. Currently, the world map is about a dozen of these 240x120 chunks, and each once is about 20 MB, so it's loading literally 200+ MB.
I'll try checking out Roll20 and/or Fantasy Grounds for this and see if it meets my needs. Unfortunately, making a world map in 12-mile hexes seems like it might be difficult regardless of the platform.
Also, I do use transparency. You can't make a square image out of hexes and overlay them without transparency.

Bandw2 |

Well currently I don't have one huge map. Since a world map would need about 1250x625 hexes, I only make maps at 240x120. Problem is each hex is already small at 30x26. Currently, the world map is about a dozen of these 240x120 chunks, and each once is about 20 MB, so it's loading literally 200+ MB.
I'll try checking out Roll20 and/or Fantasy Grounds for this and see if it meets my needs. Unfortunately, making a world map in 12-mile hexes seems like it might be difficult regardless of the platform.
Also, I do use transparency. You can't make a square image out of hexes and overlay them without transparency.
okay, yeah, WAY too big. also, if you cook the hex grid onto the other image you won't need transparency. Transparency is REALLY a hog on your GPU.

KainPen |
I think that is your problem to many high detailed maps with hex grid already snapped in to the image. This is limiting you. try to make 1 map no hexes in the image just image of map, then resize that image to an aspect ratio you are going to have to play with Based on size and visual quality you want. As others siad 1 meg is ideal for internet play, but if you want better quality 5 meg should be good. if it LAN based game you should notice no lag if 5 meg images. Then use the VTT to input the hexs grid manually on top the plain image. Most have a way of doing this some don't to the scale you want the grids to be. Some like D20pro limit you to just squares. but squares could have the same effect. The only reason hex are used is to make more accurate measure of distance, so you don’t have to use 5,10,5 rule for diagonals. Hexograher program could be the whole problem I don’t know anything about it. But I had similar issues with Dundjinni building maps, because it auto scales on x size, with its own set rule for grids. So what I do now since I can’t draw for the life of me much less use gimp or Paint shop pro. (if you can do this best way to make high quality maps that fit into VTT well without any issues.) I use Dundjinni easy features to build the structures of map to give it the look I want for world or massive dungeon. I tend to avoid the auto stamp object in my maps for dundjinni. As they are scaled to set size, you may be seeing the same thing with Hexographer. Then go import the image then add the add the grid manually inside the VTT to the number of squares I want.
Edit*
I just looked up Hexographer on my phone, I would not even use it. It is your problem just like Dundjinni, was for me. It is set to an x scale at X resolution and is not made with VTT in mind or making just and image from the looks of hexographer you can’t take the grid out of the image. You are going to have to use 3rd party image software to resize the image to lower DPI. These programs where made to print out on lots of sheets of paper and make a big poster board of them all taped together, or print out on large plotter printers. The print scale is that all the hex are set number of inches on piece of paper. Your best solution is going to be to make new image using the poster board style. Take each of those maps use resize them to they are about 300kb to 1 meg each, you can do this in paint, gimp, ect. with resizing option. Just do 50% until you get close to that number. Then after that then make a new image file inside said paint program, then cut and paste each 300kb to 1 meg each image to the new back drop placing them together in order, just like you would have done back in the day with poster board, glue and or tape. You are going to lose quality and it may actual come out to small you are going to have to play with it and may have to make several maps but it could very well reduce you from 12 maps to 3 or 4. Then import map in to VTT and adjust VTT grid to fit on top of grid of your map. It may not fit perfect but it is your best solution with what you are working with.

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I use MapTool and have the Inner Sea World Map as a hex map. No problems.
Are you using the MapTool grid overlay?
I use the Inner Sea World map and overlay the hex grid to map scale, with each hex being 12 miles. I use a single token to represent the party. Set the vision to 0 or 5' and then they can only see the hex they are in or the surrounding hexes and the areas of the map already revealed. You should be able to do something similar.
As long as you can get your image to less than 5 MB, you shouldn't have any problems. Gimp (free) can help with that or Photoshop if you have it.

DreamGoddessLindsey |
Okay, tried shrinking the maps, but the loss of quality makes them unplayable. I tried going to 1726x1000 at 25dpi and the map was still over 10 MB. I'm fairly proficient in this software, so I'm not sure what's causing this.
Part of the problem, though, is certainly trying to make a true WORLD map that has the entire world in 12-mile hexes.
Can't use Fantasy Grounds because it costs way too much money for me. Roll20 doesn't work because it goes in squares and not hexes.
This is dang frustrating.
Actually, I might be able to fix it by reducing the size Hexographer exports to so that the resolution has a natural resize. Then I'll take those, shrunk to 10x12 hexes, combine them into a single map to be loaded instead of multiple objects. Our computers can certainly handle the load.
I'll report back my results.

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Okay, tried shrinking the maps, but the loss of quality makes them unplayable. I tried going to 1726x1000 at 25dpi and the map was still over 10 MB. I'm fairly proficient in this software, so I'm not sure what's causing this.
The problem here is that you're trying to use the software for something it was never intended for. It was intended to print large paper maps. It was not intended for use with a Virtual Table Top, so it doesn't generate the right style of images.
Part of the problem, though, is certainly trying to make a true WORLD map that has the entire world in 12-mile hexes.
Agreed. 12 mile hexes is way too much detail for a world map. 100 mile hexes is more like what you want.
Can't use Fantasy Grounds because it costs way too much money for me. Roll20 doesn't work because it goes in squares and not hexes.
Incorrect. Roll20 does both grids and hexes. We use hexes for our Roll20 World Map.
Actually, I might be able to fix it by reducing the size Hexographer exports to so that the resolution has a natural resize. Then I'll take those, shrunk to 10x12 hexes, combine them into a single map to be loaded instead of multiple objects. Our computers can certainly handle the load.
Your best bet is to abandon hexographer, or to use its output as input to another graphics software. E.g. free GIMP or expensive Photoshop. Hexographer is the wrong too for the job you are applying it to.

Gauss |

DreamGoddessLindsey, after reducing the DPI to about 75 or 100 try splitting the map into pieces using GIMP or Photoshop.
Example:
If you have a 100 DPI map and it is coming in at 40 MB split it into 9 pieces and they should each come in under 5 MB.
I can help you get set up in Roll20 if you would like. Private message me a join link (note: I am a Moderator on Roll20).