Is greater polymorph ~at will~ too much at 11th level?


Advice


I have a dark tapestry oracle maybe joining a game, I know where its headed ..

Ifrit Oracle: Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.

Even though only allowing it once get the power (3rd) it still means greater polymorph at 11th due to

Many Forms (Su): As a standard action, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium humanoid, as the alter self spell. At 7th level, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal, as beast shape I. At 11th level, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium magical beast, as beast shape III. At 15th level, you can assume a variety of forms, as greater polymorph. You can use this ability for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. You must be at least 3rd level to select this revelation.

Their 1st level revelation is cloak of darkness so forms will have free AC as well.

Not sure if this is too much(as can cycle through forms shapechange style) but compared to wild shape with feats like celestial wild shape and race benefits like
Half-Orc Druid: Add +1/3 to the druid's natural armor bonus when using wild shape.
not sure if its just par for course and a reactionary irrational worry?

Back story is cool, makes sense for race, oracles are great to DM, dark tapestry makes for a very conanesque caster straight out of the books so has great flavor..but..


Compared to wildshape, it seems fair. At level 10, at which point the oracle (with all fcb into effective level increase) can use greater polymorph for elemental body III and plant shape II, a druid can also use wildshape as per those spells. If you're fine with wildshape, this shouldn't be a problem.


Also keep in mind that your Oracle will have < 20 minutes per day to use in a polymorphed form, as opposed to a Druid, who will have at least 10+ hours per day. You are also within your rights to require a relevant Knowledge check if the Oracle wants to turn into a rare creature they've never seen.

Also -- I don't believe an Oracle will have access to the Natural Spell feat, so (unlike a Druid) they can't easily shapeshift then immediately start casting. They also don't have access to Wild Speech, so depending on the form, they may not be able to communicate with the party when shapeshifted. Armor and Shield bonuses cease to function in a Polymorphed form too (unless the armor has the Wild special ability), so you'll often see a net wash on AC, even with the natural armor bonus.


AC won't be a problem: the oracle takes a revelation to grant him an armor bonus. That doesn't come from an item, and therefore remains while polymorphed.


How is this ~at-will~?


I Think it Will be ok. The time limit and the absence of the Best natural weapon style buff spells Will put this guy behind druids in this but the invest ment in feats and stats Will have to be the same. The forms Can do a bit more but nothing to worry about.


Based on this thread and specifically this post:

John Compton wrote:

Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs

For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.

Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.

This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?
A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1. An animal companion receives no additional abilities for its level unless it has the requisite number of Hit Dice; a character can increase her effective druid level further, though these effective levels do not grant any benefit until the character’s actual level increases. For example, a 12th-level aasimar oracle with the nature mystery and the bonded mount revelation could theoretically have an “18th-level” animal companion; however, her animal companion would only be “16th-level” for all abilities because the animal could not have more than 13 Hit Dice.

This is a conscious modification to how the rules work for the few cases that would allow a character to have an animal companion with a higher effective level than she does—primarily related to oracles’ use of the aasimar and elf alternate favored class bonuses. Such characters can still receive considerable benefits from such an investment of favored class points, but the mechanical edge is not as overwhelming for an ability that is persistent and potentially game-changing. The above information will be included in an FAQ entry, and a note will appear in the Additional Resources entry for Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide.

Your player cannot select the favored class bonus and apply it to a revelation he does not have. So, the earliest he could start applying the favored class bonus to this revelation would be 3rd level when it becomes available. If he does not choose to take this at 3rd level, he cannot use the FCB to select it either. This could help increase when it becomes available.

That being said, this is not an at-will power. At-will means you can do it as much as you want without limit. This is limited to a number of minutes per day equal to oracle level, and must be used in 1 minute increments. At most, the character could be in a form for less than 30 minutes per day.

He also can't cast any spells while polymorph if they require verbal or somatic components. He can't access material components or divine foci either. This essentially results in almost no spell casting, unless he uses a lot of metamagic to prepare spells.


Level 11 is still do able with favored class Pick from level 3. So no need for a Wall of text.


unlimited Greater polymorph (at will powers are usually unlimited) would have been a bit much. But what he really gets is totally ok.

Scarab Sages

Well, Greater Polymorph can allow Form of the Dragon 1. If the character has the eschew materials feat, that would allow full spellcasting in dragon form as dragons are capable of casting spells. This is roughly equivalent to a druid with natural spell, but it is limited in available forms, and it still has the minute per level instead of hours duration.


Imbicatus wrote:
Well, Greater Polymorph can allow Form of the Dragon 1. If the character has the eschew materials feat, that would allow full spellcasting in dragon form as dragons are capable of casting spells. This is roughly equivalent to a druid with natural spell, but it is limited in available forms, and it still has the minute per level instead of hours duration.

And medium dragons are not that great.


Already covered thats why 11th. Though good to have the ruling so its not just another one of my 'arbitrary' rulings.

~at will~ is because for all intensive purposes in combat it is. If bards don't run out of music and barbarians don't run out of rage (i have found) 1 min per level is plenty.

Its a 2 edged sword no feats really help the ability but it means its a costless additive on a already effective class.

I feel better now. Look forward to the character its rare to be taken off guard. It should be interesting seeing how it plays out - a caster who sometimes doesn't bother casting and just 'unleashes the beast within'.

Scarab Sages

Cap. Darling wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Well, Greater Polymorph can allow Form of the Dragon 1. If the character has the eschew materials feat, that would allow full spellcasting in dragon form as dragons are capable of casting spells. This is roughly equivalent to a druid with natural spell, but it is limited in available forms, and it still has the minute per level instead of hours duration.
And medium dragons are not that great.

It's still flight, resistances, a 6d8 breath weapon, some modest bonuses to stats, and five natural weapons. Not the best form, but probably the most versatile.


Elementals can also cast spells. They have arms with elbows and hands with fingers and opposable thumbs, and the ability to speak intelligent languages (otherwise it would have "understand only" in the language entry).

Air elemental form is boss.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Well, Greater Polymorph can allow Form of the Dragon 1. If the character has the eschew materials feat, that would allow full spellcasting in dragon form as dragons are capable of casting spells. This is roughly equivalent to a druid with natural spell, but it is limited in available forms, and it still has the minute per level instead of hours duration.
And medium dragons are not that great.

Beast shape IV allows some nice magical beasts, which the druid can't shape into if I remember right. And some of them will have the ability to speak. But still, the short duration keeps it from being a problem imo.


When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.

Scarab Sages

K177Y C47 wrote:
When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.

Almost every GM is going to rule that Bokrug is a specific individual and not allow polymorphing into that form. Fun discussion though.


But yes, out of combat the Oracle is slightly more limited than teh druid. The Oracle can't match the druid when it comes to spying in wildshape or just daily round about movement (just flying around in hawk form for instance), but, with 15 minutes of Many Forms, you can easily change for small periods of times to get around obstacles (shape changing into a rodent to squeeze into a small hole to open the door on the other side for your party).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.
Almost every GM is going to rule that Bokrug is a specific individual and not allow polymorphing into that form. Fun discussion though.

I would totally allow this after a very difficult knowledge check. Of course the oracle and everyone in the immediate vicinity would probably go insane upon seeing a likeness of a Great Old One and possibly draw his attention.....


No need for eschew materials its already in the class "Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components."

Combined with the tongues spell (on the dark tapestry list) speaking isn't an issue either.

I think i will have enough headaches with their con pumping with infernal eldritch heritage and a bunch of forms high DC poisonous and petrifying breath weapons n such.


Jaryn Wildmane wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.
Almost every GM is going to rule that Bokrug is a specific individual and not allow polymorphing into that form. Fun discussion though.
I would totally allow this after a very difficult knowledge check. Of course the oracle and everyone in the immediate vicinity would probably go insane upon seeing a likeness of a Great Old One and possibly draw his attention.....

If I ever try to play a dark tapestry oracle it'll be someone worshipping the old ones so going insane is not something I'd have a problem with. Nor would drawing the attention of one of my gods.


K177Y C47 wrote:
When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.

He he good find. But he is just a large creature with 4 natural attacks and poison. Most of what make him dangerous is not given to some one that imitates his form.

Edit: and yes he is not a race but a individual creature so it may even stop with that. But compare him( or actually the copy your oracle Can make) to a pouncing allosaurus with frost bite on.
Edit2: 5 natural attacks

Scarab Sages

Cap. Darling wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.
He he good find. But he is just a large creature with 4 natural attacks and poison. Most of what make him dangerous is not given to some one that imitates his form.

To be fair, it's a frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 2d4 Wisdom damage; cure 3 consecutive saves poison.

That is DEADLY. Even if you don't fall unconscious from wisdom damage, you become easy fodder for any will targeting spell and neuter the spellcasting of any cleric, druid, or inquisitor.


Imbicatus wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
When it comes to combat, the Dark Tapestry Oracle can actually be VERY mean with an abused Many forms. The ability to get magical beasts and dragons is what really sets them apart from druids. For instance, there is a certain great old one that you can turn into that druids cannot.
He he good find. But he is just a large creature with 4 natural attacks and poison. Most of what make him dangerous is not given to some one that imitates his form.

To be fair, it's a frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 2d4 Wisdom damage; cure 3 consecutive saves poison.

That is DEADLY. Even if you don't fall unconscious from wisdom damage, you become easy fodder for any will targeting spell and neuter the spellcasting of any cleric, druid, or inquisitor.

Good point, i missed that. But fortitude save is often high on melee baddies and Lots of baddies are immune to poison. And he wont get the critical poisoning ability.

But yes it is a nasty poison.

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